Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[Beckie]

No, this isn't how this works. You made a specific claim/charge. Don't give me such a vague response.

You need to quote the "2" of my postings and explain how they are contradictory.

What is clear is that you are stalling.

I did this once it was done in post 3701 I copied post #3701 it does not show the quotes ... tell me again how this works ... some folks are so self absorbed they will not see.
FreeGrace2 said:
OK, you are free to make your own choices about what you believe, but I gave you facts that prove otherwise.

Apparently you don't understand WHY Adam ate the fruit. It was the woman who was tricked (deceived) by Satan to eat it. And it was the woman who offered it to Adam. He ate it because he chose the woman over God and His plan. Plain and simple.


I see. So you are just trying real hard to negate the clarity of v.45. Go ahead. God gave you the freedom to choose what you will believe.
do you even read what you post?
FreeGrace2 said:
I haven't charged you with trying to negate anything.


This is a typical response when one is identified as a calvinist. Doesn't matter that you didn't study calvin. Many many pastors have been trained in reformed theology, which is calvinistic. Certainly you sit under a pastor. He may very well be a calvinist.


I wasn't using the word as a slam. Wow are you hypersensitive about your calvinism.

This is what calvinists believe:
1. man is unable to believe the gospel and therefore requires that God regenerate him/her so they can and will believe.
2. God chose/elected certain individuals for salvation apart from any condition (that would include faith as a condition).
3. Christ did not die for everyone, but only for these certain elected individuals.
4. God's grace is irresistible, meaning that those God chooses for salvation WILL believe.
5. a. all believers WILL persevere in the faith.
b. all believers will be eternally secure.

Seems some calvinists believe 5a and others 5b.

It all adds up to TULIP.


My posts include Scripture. If people don't like it, I don't care. Scripture is Scripture.


From what you have posted, I had no idea what you know or didn't know.

Please check your sensitivities at the door.
Click to expand...
If i was a Clavinist i would gladly say so . Thank you for posting those 5 Scriptural points ! Posting the most words does not make one correct. How can anyone believe what you say when you contradict your self so clearly ?

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It doesn't have to say "cause" , it says "given", and you don't get to make the rules.

Ha. You don't get to create your own definitions. The verse doesn't say or mean "to cause". It means to permit, allow. iow, "to give" in the sense of granting something. In fact, some translations use "grant". You have no case.

So verse 20 doesn't define who the cause of people's believing is? Really? Here I'll repost and add another verse. The "who by him" is Christ from verses 19 & 20. It is undeniable: by Him do we believe.

[1Pe 1:19-21 KJV]
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

From: http://www.freebiblecommentary.org/new_testament_studies/VOL02/VOL02B_01.html

v.21 - "who through Him are believers in God" This is literally "the ones. . .believing." The ADJECTIVE pistos is used as a SUBSTANTIVE ("the believing ones").
The etymological background of the term believe (Hebrew emeth, Greek, pistis) helps establish the contemporary meaning. In Hebrew it originally referred to a person in a stable stance. It came to be used metaphorically for someone who was dependable, loyal, or trustworthy. The Greek equivalent is translated into English by the terms "faith," "believe," and "trust." Biblical faith or trust is not primarily something we do, but someone in whom we put our trust. It is God's trustworthiness, not ours, which is the focus. Fallen mankind trusts God's trustworthiness, faiths His faithfulness, believes in His Beloved. The focus is not on the abundance or intensity of human faith, but the object of that faith.

V28 does not explain why Jesus used the word "work" - at least not according to your reasoning of it.

It does and refutes calvinism.

Here again, you've imposed your own interpretation on the verse to force it into meaning what you want it to mean,

Ha. I pointed out what was said. You don't understand it because of your strong calvinism.

Romans 4:5, in saying "worketh not but believeth on him", is actually confirming and substantiating Eph 2:8:9 that it is God's work not their work -- that is the only way it could not be a work and not sin.

No, neither verse say what you opine. They clearly state that believing is NOT a work.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
v.45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Red words state the facts that God has provided facts to everyone. This is what Romans 1:19-20 is about. Because everyone has been taught by God, no one has an excuse. v.21

So you as a dad give the facts, lets say the facts about driving to your kid. You hand him the DMV booklet you have given him the facts but have you taught him. Maybe you give the facts of baking cookies to your kid is that really teaching them?

This is just garbled. Are you really trying to equate the phrase "all have be taught by God" to some dad who gave wrong facts to his kid who wanted to learn to drive?? Are you kidding? Are you well?

All be taught by God does not say God gave them facts clearly says "They will all be taught by God" you attempting to change the verbiage does not change the Word of God.

What do you think God was teaching everyone, if not facts? Seems you are having a geat difficulty in following this discussion.

I GAVE YOU what God has taught everyone; Rom 1:19-21. Aren't you aware of those verses?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
This is what calvinists believe:
1. man is unable to believe the gospel and therefore requires that God regenerate him/her so they can and will believe.
2. God chose/elected certain individuals for salvation apart from any condition (that would include faith as a condition).
3. Christ did not die for everyone, but only for these certain elected individuals.
4. God's grace is irresistible, meaning that those God chooses for salvation WILL believe.
5. a. all believers WILL persevere in the faith.
b. all believers will be eternally secure.

About the above ..... , After reading your postings and seeing how you distort and deny what you say

Do you ever review before you post? So you are claiming that I "distort and deny what" I say. That is ridiculous.

Again, I challenge you to back up your ridiculous charges with actual evidence. You didn't with my first challenge. I will challenge EVERY one of your empty and ridiculous charges.

I will have to do some Calvinistic study to post a reply .

Didn't you tell another poster you were called a calvinist about 30 years ago?? And you still don't know what that implies?

As stated i have not studied Calvin's writings. I do not trust the way you have worded your version of the 5 points.

If you were truthful about being so unfamiliar with calvin's 5 points, how would you even know what the "right" version is?

I have seen TULIP but never paid much attention to it Bout time i do.

Yeah, right.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"FreeGrace2,
[Once again a calvinist quotes 1 verse but leaves out the very next verse, which EXPLAINS who will come to Jesus. And it isn't about unconditional election.]

No...Verse 37 explains why they come, unconditional election. All the Father gives me shall come. verse 45 shows the end result, right after it was explained that no man CAN COME, except the Father who sent me draws him.

No, v.45 follows immediately after v.44 and is the explanation for who comes to Jesus.

There are NO verses that teach calvin's "unconditional election" to salvation. Or quote me the very best and most clear one.

Here iconoclast quotes me:
"v.45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

[Red words state the facts that God has provided facts to everyone. This is what Romans 1:19-20 is about. Because everyone has been taught by God, no one has an excuse. v.21
Blue words describe what some from the "all" do: listen and learn from the Father.
Green words is the result of listening and learning from the Father; coming to Jesus.]"

Now, from iconoclast:
No Jesus was quite clear. That quote was taken from Isa54:13 speaking of the Covenant children from among the gentiles worldwide.
The previously untaught Gentiles were going to be drawn and taught by the Father, out of darkness into light.
The writer to Hebrews speaks of these children given in Hebrews 2:13-16. They are the seed of Abraham from the nations.

Hebrews isn't relevant here. The issue is John 6:44 and 45 and who will come to Jesus.

Your "no" is ridiculous. Romans 1:19-20 DOES show that God has made FACTS about Himself clear and plain to everyone. That is what God has "taught everyone".

Again, iconoclast quotes me:
"[Once having understood that, v.10 and 11 are quotes from Psa 14:1-3, which is about the fact that atheists claim there is no God. So obviously "none of them will seek after God"]."

Now, back to iconoclast himself:

God looked down to see if there were ANY...THERE WAS NONE

[To apply v.11 to the entire human race is a big mistake. In fact, the Bible recognizes that there are people who DO SEEK God.

They do not seek God savingly.

Cornelius did. Acts 10. Read it sometime.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
No, this isn't how this works. You made a specific claim/charge. Don't give me such a vague response.

You need to quote the "2" of my postings and explain how they are contradictory.

What is clear is that you are stalling.

I did this once it was done in post 3701 I copied post #3701 it does not show the quotes ... tell me again how this works ... some folks are so self absorbed they will not see.
FreeGrace2 said:
"OK, you are free to make your own choices about what you believe, but I gave you facts that prove otherwise.

Apparently you don't understand WHY Adam ate the fruit. It was the woman who was tricked (deceived) by Satan to eat it. And it was the woman who offered it to Adam. He ate it because he chose the woman over God and His plan. Plain and simple."

I see. So you are just trying real hard to negate the clarity of v.45.

This shows that you are more than just confused, apparently.

In my quote above, I acknowledged that you are free to make your own choices about what to believe and then I told you that I had given you facts that prove "what you believe" is NOT true. I"m sure most people would easily understand what I said. But since you obviously didn't understand that, I apologize for not being more clear.

Go ahead. God gave you the freedom to choose what you will believe.
do you even read what you post?
FreeGrace2 said:
I haven't charged you with trying to negate anything.

And i haven't. But you do fail to understand my posts

 

[Beckie]

I will not believe any thing you have to say from this point forward. One who refuses to even re-read their own postings. You will have more time to spend with yourself I will put you on ignore.

 

[rogerg]

I will not believe any thing you have to say from this point forward. One who refuses to even re-read their own postings. You will have more time to spend with yourself I will put you on ignore.

Freegrace2 is in his own reality where he believes that he was made king of words, to change their meaning whenever
and however he chooses to, as fits the point he wants to make - kind of like something out of Alice in Wonderland

 

[John146]

Since Hebrews, is primarily about Jesus Christ who is the better Sacrifice and is the High Priest after the order of Melchisedech - who was both King and Priest. Perhaps you would explain how this does not apply to us today? Is He (Christ), not both King and High Priest, forever? Is it not Christ's blood, that makes it possible for one to be both Righteous and Justified? Is not His Sacrifice Eternally accepted? Being He was both Son of God (Infinite) and Son of Man.

So how does Hebrews not apply?

Hebrews is giving a right perspective of Jesus Christ to the Jews who missed out on him as their King and Priest the first coming. They are specifically being prepared for his second coming. Yes, many things in Hebrews is good truth for us today, but there are some passages that only appLu to the Jew enduring to the end of the tribulation. It is harmful to apply these passages to the body of Christ. For example, Hebrews 6:4-6, 10:26-27.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I will not believe any thing you have to say from this point forward. One who refuses to even re-read their own postings. You will have more time to spend with yourself I will put you on ignore.

lol. Typical response when a poster finally realizes they cannot defend their own position or refute another poster's position.

I asked her to prove your charges against me, with quotes and post #s. And this is her answer; she bails rather than provides any evidence.

This show that no one should believe anything SHE has to say since she won't even try to prove her false charges.

Good move.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Freegrace2 is in his own reality where he believes that he was made king of words, to change their meaning whenever
and however he chooses to, as fits the point he wants to make - kind of like something out of Alice in Wonderland

When are you going to provide verses that say what you believe? I've been doing that.

Your fantasy world is, let's say, interesting. I have verses that plainly say what I believe.

 

[FreeGrace2]

rogerg, go ahead and continue to provide your red X's and thumbs down on my posts. What does it matter?

It shows that you don't like the FACTS. Why don't you just provide evidence that would prove your claims? Except you know that you don't have any.

The only point of TULIP that has biblical backing is the P, and ONLY IF the "P" stands for preservation, another word for eternal security.

A number of calvinists explain the "P" as perseverance, which is not eternal security, but rather "not apostatizing".

Yet, the Bible clearly gives encouragement for believers to "remain in the Lord" and "continue in the faith" so we KNOW perserverance isn't guaranteed or automatic.

 

[Beckie]

Having read a bit about The Reformation i am finding it more interesting. Through history we get a fairly clear of the 'Hand of God' in our daily lives... Thinking about the slower pace of life pf those days it was not a huge span of time between the invention of the printing press and the Reformation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Having read a bit about The Reformation i am finding it more interesting. Through history we get a fairly clear of the 'Hand of God' in our daily lives...

It is through the Bible that we get a clear idea of the "hand of God' in our daily lives. Not sure why you think history is relevant.

Thinking about the slower pace of life pf those days it was not a huge span of time between the invention of the printing press and the Reformation.

Once you find that my explanation of TULIP is accurate, I look forward to the verses that you think support each of the points.

 

[awelight]

.

You ignored verses 27 and 28. Where it states - "God chose". What's a matter? No answer for these? You had no problem with "called - even though it was not completely correct. It can mean "invite" but it is used more as to mean: "Called to something or somewhere" or "Appoint to". As in Paul was appointed to be an Apostle. No one, would ever say, Paul was invited to be an Apostle. But wait, maybe you think the Apostle Paul was invited to this office and so too, Moses and the other Prophets were invited? Or maybe, Jesus' disciples were "invited" and not "appointed or called or chosen"?

John_6:70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?

 

[awelight]

About the above ..... , After reading your postings and seeing how you distort and deny what you say , I will have to do some Calvinistic study to post a reply . As stated i have not studied Calvin's writings. I do not trust the way you have worded your version of the 5 points. I have seen TULIP but never paid much attention to it Bout time i do.

I would suggest you ignore TULIP. It is nothing more than an acronym. It was designed to help remind those, who hold to the Calvinistic five points, what the five points are. The Five you mentioned, in your earlier post, are just fine. FreeGrace 2, knows that and is just harassing you because he can't put together a worthy defense. (At least not in the minds of others.).

I would answer his demand of proof, for the "Five Points" but I am smart enough to know, that his only desire is to cause one to waste their time. If he cannot see the Truth in what has already been posted ---- Then he never will ---- Unless.. the Lord does something for him.

 

[Beckie]

I would suggest you ignore TULIP. It is nothing more than an acronym. It was designed to help remind those, who hold to the Calvinistic five points, what the five points are. The Five you mentioned, in your earlier post, are just fine. FreeGrace 2, knows that and is just harassing you because he can't put together a worthy defense. (At least not in the minds of others.).

I would answer his demand of proof, for the "Five Points" but I am smart enough to know, that his only desire is to cause one to waste their time. If he cannot see the Truth in what has already been posted ---- Then he never will ---- Unless.. the Lord does something for him.

T.U.L.IP. to me is not different then U.C.A.N. or H.O.M.E.S. A way to remember some points.. Thanks. My plan is to learn, study then reply. If just one person reads my reply and 'gets it' it will not be a waist of time .

 

[awelight]

Hebrews is giving a right perspective of Jesus Christ to the Jews who missed out on him as their King and Priest the first coming. They are specifically being prepared for his second coming. Yes, many things in Hebrews is good truth for us today, but there are some passages that only appLu to the Jew enduring to the end of the tribulation. It is harmful to apply these passages to the body of Christ. For example, Hebrews 6:4-6, 10:26-27.

There are nothing wrong with these verses - Hebrews 6:4-6, 10:26-27 and indeed, they do apply to believers today. One would only fear what these verses say - If they had the wrong understanding of them.

I will try to help here:

Heb 6:4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The writer, (Whether it be Paul or not), wants us to understand the following: If a person has become a True believer in Christ and then were to "fall away" -- There is no more sacrifice to cover that one because He/she threw it away. This one has Apostatized. Verses 4-6, are a statement of fact. However, they cannot actually happen. Please stay with me here.

This "double death", would have reminded the Jewish believers, of when Moses struck the "Rock" and life giving water came forth but on the second occasion, the Lord told Moses to "talk" to the Rock but instead, Moses struck it with his staff. This Second strike, was symbolic in putting Christ to death twice. Moses was killed for this disobedience.

Therefore, we have known that Jesus Christ will not be offered up a second time.

Verse 6:4 - Says that if a person is 1.) Enlightened, 2.) A partaker of the heavenly gifts, 3.) Made a partaker of the Holy Spirit, 4.) Tasted the good Word of God, 5.) Been part of the age to come. (This is a TRUE believer.) These 5 points, are not someone who says: They believe in Christ and fall away. Not some religionist, who is hot one day and cold the next. Not one, who's human faith, fells. BUT If a True believer were to fall away, (Which is not possible), then that one could not be brought back because Christ would have to be sacrificed again.

Verse 6, states that this person would be guilty of rejecting the "efficacy" of Christ's sacrifice. Again, if they are a True believer, this cannot happen. No true believer, will ever "fall away" or Apostatize. A True believer may stumble, question, doubt or sin BUT never, ever, Apostatize. This warning, was used to elevate the "Superiority" and the "Efficacy" of Christ's Sacrifice.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.

These two verses, convey a similar concept, as to the ones in Hebrews 6.

This is not to be understood, as one being overtaken by a sin or committing a sin. Fore believers are guilty of having impure thoughts and sometimes acting out on them. What the writer is attempting to get across here, is the idea of one being a True believer - has come to understand the Truth - and yet, lives a willing life of sin. In other words, "rebels" against the Commandments and Ordinances of the Lord. This person, could not be brought back because there is no more sacrifice for sin. This again, would be one whom has Apostatized and again, this would be impossible, if they were a True believer. Verse 26, echoes the warning of Heb. 6:6.

Both warnings - Are statements of fact - if they were possible. However, the writer uses them as a hypothetical argument for something that cannot actually occur.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You ignored verses 27 and 28. Where it states - "God chose". What's a matter? No answer for these? You had no problem with "called - even though it was not completely correct. It can mean "invite" but it is used more as to mean: "Called to something or somewhere" or "Appoint to". As in Paul was appointed to be an Apostle. No one, would ever say, Paul was invited to be an Apostle. But wait, maybe you think the Apostle Paul was invited to this office and so too, Moses and the other Prophets were invited? Or maybe, Jesus' disciples were "invited" and not "appointed or called or chosen"?

John_6:70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?

I can't figure out your post. What is your point here?

And you quoted a verse that supports my point that election is to service. It is clear that Jesus didn't choose Judas for salvation.

If that isn't clear to you, your problems are very deep.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I would suggest you ignore TULIP. It is nothing more than an acronym. It was designed to help remind those, who hold to the Calvinistic five points, what the five points are. The Five you mentioned, in your earlier post, are just fine. FreeGrace 2, knows that and is just harassing you because he can't put together a worthy defense.

Wanna bet? I have challenged her, and now YOU to provide verses that plainly state each point. That means 1 verse per point, not 1 verse that states all 5 points.

Once each of you shows that you can't do that, I will provide verses that plainly refute each of the 5 points. That is, if you claim the 5th point is about perseverance. If you think it is preservation (eternal security), then I'm fully on board with that.

I would answer his demand of proof, for the "Five Points" but I am smart enough to know, that his only desire is to cause one to waste their time.

OK, so you believe that it is a waste of time to prove your view is biblical. That is weird indeed.

Rather, this kind of loose talk is from those who know they can't defend their points or views. So they don't.

If he cannot see the Truth in what has already been posted ---- Then he never will ---- Unless.. the Lord does something for him.

Nice cheap shot.

So, you've already checked out on trying to prove the 5 points of calvinism are biblical.

Now, once Beckie checks out without any verses, I will provide clear verses that refute each point.