Pentecostalism's sketchy origins

[TDidymas]

Your Post #1,527
You said: "(1) Biblical tongues is described in Acts 2, and there is absolutely nothing in scripture to indicate that the nature of tongues changed from that day to what Paul describes in 1 Cor. 14."

Nothing could be further from the Truth and your heart is not in a Good Place concerning this.

When any person speaks against Scripture, it is always a BAD thing to do.

The LORD Jesus Christ suffered immensely for our sins and that included the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

“If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you."

The Spirit of Truth only speaks the Truth and HE Authored the Book of Acts and 1 Corinthians and 1 John = all of which speak of TRUTH.

You're still speaking with your fingers in your ears. You're refusing to address the issues I addressed, but rather resort to personal judgments. Your response thus proves my words true.

You claim your so-called 'gift' is of God, and yet you refuse to present it for examination. My words that P/Cs have a vested interest in shrouding it in the shadows of mystery are proven true by that refusal. You use Biblical jargon, but don't back it up with exegesis of scripture, so again, my words are proven true by your response.

You claim that the nature of tongues changed between Acts 2 and 1 Cor. 14, and yet I see nothing of an exegesis from scripture from you, and in this way you prove my words true.

 

[TDidymas]

We think you do all the same things that you think we are doing. We think you are changing the interpretation and authorial intent to fit your own structured reasoning to justify a lack of desire for spiritual gifts.

You also prove my words true by your response, in this way: you resort to judgments instead of being specific about what you object to, in regard to what I said. I've already shown that your interpretation of scripture is faulty, and your silence on those matters indicates that you cannot refute it, so you resort to "we agree to disagree." But this response begs the question in exactly what way do you think I change the original intent? I've already shown that 1 Cor. 14 fits well in the Acts 2 narrative, in which you agree with most of what I said. But now you claim that I change what Paul intended, and don't even explain how. So how is what you do here any different than what I described as typical of P/C response?

 

[TDidymas]

And yet the same thing can be said about your narrative except in yours you spend far too much time judging the motives of your opponents rather than working on an exegesis of 1 Cor 14 that would be warmly embraced by all seekers of truth.

Everyone who has been thinking clearly about the intent of 1 Cor. 14 have agreed with me on the matter. But it is only the tongue-talker crowd that has disagreed. How is that? It's called bias, and having a vested interest in the text reading a certain way.

In my opinion your interpretation of 1 Cor 14:14 is not a natural reading of the text. Mine is. You accuse me of bias interpretation and then go about presenting one of the most classic examples of a biased interpretation, A twist that makes Paul to NOT being saying what he said.

I showed how 1 Cor. 14 (the whole chapter) fits in the Acts 2 narrative. Of course, that one verse which is prolifically taken out of context by the P/Cs as one of their theme verses, appears to contradict my interpretation (note I said appears), because in this day and age it is difficult to separate one's reading from the traditional P/C dogma. I already showed how in context it doesn't say what you think it says. But your refusal to take it into consideration is proof that you have a P/C bias that taints your reading.

You can't recognize your own violation of Syntactic and Lexical analysis of this text and are willing to dismiss commentators of your own persuasion. You should be seriously doubting your interpretation of 1 Cor 14:14 but instead are willing to accuse the motives of those who don't agree as being biased. And yet a much stronger case could be made that your view on this reeks of biased, forced, and strained interpretation.

I already addressed this. Bruce's comment (which you highlighted) doesn't prove your idea, because he was talking about real Biblical tongues, not the P/C counterfeit we see today. So again, your bias is revealed.

We all have bias and presuppositions. It is impossible not to. We conclude that certain things are theologically true and we bring that to the table when we evaluate a text. All sides of the controversy are doing so. The question is whether those presuppositions are accurate and should be applied or not.

I agree with you here. We all do have bias, and the question is whether our bias conforms to the original intent of scripture or not. And if modern P/Cs are reading 1 Cor. 14 correctly, then why hasn't it been read correctly for 1800 years in the historic churches? There is something wrong with the picture here, and I believe the error is in the P/C movement.

I don't think accusing others motives of their interpretation is even one of the rules of hermeneutics.

I'm wasn't talking about the rules of hermeneutics. I was talking about why people misunderstand scripture.

I also have my personal life experiences and my opinions that there is a huge difference between the people in each camp (Charismatics vs Ceasationists) and I have my many reasons why I prefer to fellowship with Charismatics, while you have your reasons that are the opposite of mine. We can prove nothing by this but our own bias.

Until someone begins to carefully examine my objections to the P/C movement, the debate will rage on.

I could say that my positive experiences with the Charismatics supports the validity of our interpretation of these scriptures but that is not really one of the rules of hermeneutics so even though we feel compelled to express these reasons because they mean so much to us from a relationship with God perspective, they don't really convince the person that needs to know they are properly interpreting scripture. Our experiences are our own and they don't convince others as much as we think they do.

I had many positive experience with P/Cs, and some of those people are still my friends and relatives, in which I get along with them very well. Having positive experiences is not the criteria by which we measure truth. Religious sentiment runs deep, and for an addiction to that sentiment to be broken takes more than a verbal shaking, it takes the power of God moving in peoples' hearts. Yet, the responses I'm getting to my objection are showing that religious sentiment is in play here.

 

[DavidTree]

You're still speaking with your fingers in your ears. You're refusing to address the issues I addressed, but rather resort to personal judgments. Your response thus proves my words true.

You claim your so-called 'gift' is of God, and yet you refuse to present it for examination. My words that P/Cs have a vested interest in shrouding it in the shadows of mystery are proven true by that refusal. You use Biblical jargon, but don't back it up with exegesis of scripture, so again, my words are proven true by your response.

You claim that the nature of tongues changed between Acts 2 and 1 Cor. 14, and yet I see nothing of an exegesis from scripture from you, and in this way you prove my words true.

i got a good laugh out this which you said: "You claim your so-called 'gift' is of God, and yet you refuse to present it for examination"

"Biblical jargon" = is this a known language?
"you don't back it up with exegesis from scripture" = My Rabbi said i'm CLEAN, no "exegewhiz" on me or inside me......

 

[DavidTree]

You're still speaking with your fingers in your ears. You're refusing to address the issues I addressed, but rather resort to personal judgments. Your response thus proves my words true.

You claim your so-called 'gift' is of God, and yet you refuse to present it for examination. My words that P/Cs have a vested interest in shrouding it in the shadows of mystery are proven true by that refusal. You use Biblical jargon, but don't back it up with exegesis of scripture, so again, my words are proven true by your response.

You claim that the nature of tongues changed between Acts 2 and 1 Cor. 14, and yet I see nothing of an exegesis from scripture from you, and in this way you prove my words true.

The Gift of Tongues has not changed from the Day it was poured out on Pentecost in Acts ch2.

When i said "nothing could be further from the truth" i was directing that statement at the false claim that what occurred in Acts is different from what the Holy Spirit declared in 1 Corinthians.
Acts and 1 Corinthians are the same Holy Spirit and the same Gift of Tongues.

What you need to discover is exactly what Acts is all about, why the Promise of the FATHER pleases HIM and is essential for Witness.
You also need to submit to God, resist the devil and he will flee from you - it's a great Blessing.

 

[Amanuensis]

I had many positive experience with P/Cs, and some of those people are still my friends and relatives, in which I get along with them very well. Having positive experiences is not the criteria by which we measure truth. Religious sentiment runs deep, and for an addiction to that sentiment to be broken takes more than a verbal shaking, it takes the power of God moving in peoples' hearts. Yet, the responses I'm getting to my objection are showing that religious sentiment is in play here.

The power of God moving in people's hearts is what we need. I do agree with that.

May we ask for and receive the infilling of the Holy Spirit's power to be witnesses today and that the power of the Holy Spirit be evident to all that we come in contact with like what we read about in Acts.

We need the same power they had then to do the work he has called us to do today.

It's been 2000 years since they changed the world in their own lifetimes with the power of the Holy Spirit.

Church history went through some dark ages when the scriptures were locked up and only certain things were taught. After the reformation there were areas of scriptures such as salvation that took center stage. When people began to ask for and receive a restoration of other areas they were treated as heretics by the reformers and so the cycle repeats itself.

We are a relatively young movement still going back to the scriptures and seeking a restoration to what we read about in the Gospels and in Acts and this is all a good and honest heart and God will bless it by giving us what we ask, seek and knock for. The Holy Spirit. (Luke 11)

And with the power of the Holy Spirit we can change the world again in our own lifetime. Church History is not over, the reformation and restoration is not over. And those that refuse to settle for doubt and unbelief will receive an out pouring in these last days that will once again turn the world upside down in Jesus Name. We need the power of the Holy Spirit and anything God chooses to do of a miraculous nature through signs and wonders as we preach the Gospel is needed today for the same reasons that He did it in Acts.

By reading the gospels we learn how Jesus gave us power over all the powers of the kingdom of darkness and the enemy to cast out devils, heal the sick and we were to tread on serpents and scorpions. Heal the sick and tell them that the kingdom of God had come nigh. After the book of Revelation was written we still have power over all the power of the enemy and can still heal the sick and cast out devils in Jesus name.

Who would think that this advancing the Kingdom of God should recede or come up against a wall such that we can no longer do these things because the NT was completed. That does not make sense at all. We should have even more miracles and signs and wonders because faith comes by hearing the word of God and we have a NT to read and memorize and promises to stand on and this should motivate us to go and preach the Gospel, healing the sick and casting out devils and it should increase not decrease.

The job is not done. A remnant will arise. Those who hunger and long for righteousness. Those who seek, ask, and knock, they shall receive the same power that we read about in Acts. And they will turn the world upside down in these last days. Awake, Awake, Put on thy Strength! Do you not hear the calling?

 

[TheLearner]

What exactly are the sketchy origins?

 

[Amanuensis]

What exactly are the sketchy origins?

Parham

 

[Mission21]

The job is not done. A remnant will arise. Those who hunger and long for righteousness. Those who seek, ask, and knock, they shall receive the same power that we read about in Acts. And they will turn the world upside down in these last days. Awake, Awake, Put on thy Strength! Do you not hear the calling?

Good point.
---
It started..with those (remnant) who responded to the calling.
- They were despised & criticized..
- in Christian History.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

The power of God moving in people's hearts is what we need. I do agree with that...We need the same power they had then to do the work he has called us to do today...still going back to the scriptures and seeking a restoration...Awake, Awake, Put on thy Strength! Do you not hear the calling?

Precious friend, yes we "hear God's Calling" As He Inspired Paul,
(who had the "gifts of tongues, healing, etc" in the beginning
of his ministry), at the end of his ministry, to put on HIS Strength
(not ours), In HIS Revelation Of The Mystery, Under GRACE For Today:

​

"...there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the​

messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be​

exalted above measure. For this thing I besought​

The LORD thrice, that it might depart from me.​

​

And He Said Unto me, My GRACE Is Sufficient for thee:​

for My Strength Is Made Perfect in weakness. Most​

gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities,​

that The Power Of CHRIST may rest upon me." ​

(2 Corinthians 12:7-9)​

Confirmed by:

"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for​

thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."​

(1 Timothy 5:23)​

+​

"...Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick."​

(2 Timothy 4:20)​

​

Conclusion: Are we to "ask God for the prophetic "power, signs, and
wonders, for healing"? Or, His Mystery "GRACE Word for our infirmities"?
----------------------------------------
More Differences/Distinctions in Prophecy vs Mystery...

And ask for Boldness to "preach JESUS CHRIST, According To
"The Revelation Of The MYSTERY"?

GRACE And Peace...

 

[DavidTree]

What exactly are the sketchy origins?

Drawings of Adam & Eve in the Garden eating the forbidden fruit.

 

[Evmur]

Precious friend, yes we "hear God's Calling" As He Inspired Paul,
(who had the "gifts of tongues, healing, etc" in the beginning
of his ministry), at the end of his ministry, to put on HIS Strength
(not ours), In HIS Revelation Of The Mystery, Under GRACE For Today:

​

"...there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the​

messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be​

exalted above measure. For this thing I besought​

The LORD thrice, that it might depart from me.​

​

And He Said Unto me, My GRACE Is Sufficient for thee:​

for My Strength Is Made Perfect in weakness. Most​

gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities,​

that The Power Of CHRIST may rest upon me." ​

(2 Corinthians 12:7-9)​

Confirmed by:

"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for​

thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."​

(1 Timothy 5:23)​

+​

"...Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick."​

(2 Timothy 4:20)​

​

Conclusion: Are we to "ask God for the prophetic "power, signs, and
wonders, for healing"? Or, His Mystery "GRACE Word for our infirmities"?
----------------------------------------
More Differences/Distinctions in Prophecy vs Mystery...

And ask for Boldness to "preach JESUS CHRIST, According To
"The Revelation Of The MYSTERY"?

GRACE And Peace...

Nevertheless Paul did ask for deliverance, I think I am a lesser person than Paul. Moreover you are overlooking the cause for his thorn in the flesh in the first place. He had such great miraculous revelations ... If what you are saying is so why wouldn't Paul plead with God to stop with the revelations and prophecies and signs and wonders?

 

[Evmur]

Well, why you only take the verses which support your view? You should consider all. F. E. 1.Cor. 12,30 ...do all speak with tongues? ...

no but Paul wished that they did

 

[Evmur]

For a certain time, yes. But for today no.
If so everybody, even nonbelievers would recognize it.

What a thing to say "... if the disciples were to preach the word with the Lord working with them with signs and wonders everybody even nonbelievers would recognize it"

Well we agree everybody even nonbelievers would recognize it ... they recognized it in bible days, but that did not cause them to turn and repent and believe. I makes some folk madder than ever against the Lord.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

How bout we just discuss things... disagreement is ok...

Can't argue with that

 

[ResidentAlien]

What exactly are the sketchy origins?

Have you read anything in this thread?

 

[ResidentAlien]

no but Paul wished that they did

"I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied;"—1 Corinthians 14:5

The fact that he wishes they all spoke in tongues just underlines the fact that they all didn't.

Wishing something and it being a fact are two different things. I wish everyone would have faith in the Lord and be saved, that doesn't make it a reality, or that it ever will be a reality.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Nevertheless Paul did ask for deliverance, I think I am a lesser person than Paul. Moreover you are overlooking the cause for his thorn in the flesh in the first place. He had such great miraculous revelations ... If what you are saying is so why wouldn't Paul plead with God to stop with the revelations and prophecies and signs and wonders?

Precious friend, how did I "overlook the cause"?:

"...there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought The LORD thrice, that it might depart from me.

So, God would not allow Paul to "become proud and conceited"
because of "such great miraculous revelations"?

Not too sure about asking unanswerable hypothetical questions about
"What God Has Said Is So In His Word Of Truth."

Thanks for trying anyway...

GRACE And Peace...

 

[hornetguy]

why the Promise of the FATHER pleases HIM and is essential for Witness.

What is it you think is essential for witness?

 

[DavidTree]

What is it you think is essential for witness?

Today is a new day and His Mercies are New every morning....

We are not in competition with each other - we both kneel at the Feet of Him who Loves us and forever intercedes on our behalf.

Something to dwell on: Why did the LORD tell His disciples who walked with Him, seen the miracles, watched Him raise the dead,
speak such words of Grace and Truth that no man has heard before (words of Eternal Life), watched Him be falsely accused, beaten beyond recognition, carrying His Cross and then being nailed to it, and on the third Day HE rose, showing Himself to many for 40 days, and then they watched Him ascend to Heaven.
WHY would the LORD prevent them from going forward with the Gospel after all which they bare witness too???