Water baptism is necessary to be in the first resurrection
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If living water is the water in “water and Spirit” then that would mean you have Jesus saying “you must be born of Spirit and Spirit” which doesn’t sound right. Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit the water is water baptism. Because John 7:37-39 says the living water is the Holy Spirit.
That’s not true.
John 4:1,2
1When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
Jesus was making disciples and had His disciples do the water baptisms. In effect, these were water baptisms made under the authority of Jesus so He could claim responsibility for what His disciples were doing. Jesus water baptized more disciples than John.
That’s not true.
John 4:1,2
1When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
Jesus was making disciples and had His disciples do the water baptisms. In effect, these were water baptisms made under the authority of Jesus so He could claim responsibility for what His disciples were doing. Jesus water baptized more disciples than John.
right this isn’t quite clicking with our beloved dear brother David
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, Which shall prepare thy way before thee.
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judæa, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.”
Mark 1:1-2, 4-5 KJV
“And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:”
Mark 1:9-10 KJV
“Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
Luke 24:45-47 KJV
“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
Acts 2:38-41 KJV
“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
…Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized,
which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
Acts 10:44-48 KJV
“And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.”
1 John 5:8 KJV
the water and the spirit is when you get baptized for remission of sins like Jesus and everyone else did and receive the promised spirit , or can receive the spirit forst and then decide to get baptized either way we’re being born of water and spirit because we heard the word about the blood
“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
John 3:5 KJV
the blood
“Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; and having an high priest over the house of God;
let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.”
Hebrews 10:19-25 KJV
“which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.”
1 Peter 3:20-22 KJV
the word we have to hear is the scripture and what it’s actually saying that’s faith to hear it and believe it that’s gonna lead us to do it.
a lot of information permeates the nt pages regarding baptism in relation to christs death burial and resurrection but the information doesn’t sink in unless we’re humble enough to let it change what we believe.
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
salvation is there before us but it’s something we have to simply hear about. , believe it’s all true and God will honor it all that he said if we accept it and do what he said.
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, Which shall prepare thy way before thee.
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judæa, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.”
Mark 1:1-2, 4-5 KJV
“And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:”
Mark 1:9-10 KJV
“Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
Luke 24:45-47 KJV
“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
Acts 2:38-41 KJV
“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
…Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized,
which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
Acts 10:44-48 KJV
“And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.”
1 John 5:8 KJV
the water and the spirit is when you get baptized for remission of sins like Jesus and everyone else did and receive the promised spirit , or can receive the spirit forst and then decide to get baptized either way we’re being born of water and spirit because we heard the word about the blood
“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
John 3:5 KJV
the blood
“Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; and having an high priest over the house of God;
let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.”Hebrews 10:19-25 KJV
“which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.”
1 Peter 3:20-22 KJV
the word we have to hear is the scripture and what it’s actually saying that’s faith to hear it and believe it that’s gonna lead us to do it.
a lot of information permeates the nt pages regarding baptism in relation to christs death burial and resurrection but the information doesn’t sink in unless we’re humble enough to let it change what we believe.
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
salvation is there before us but it’s something we have to simply hear about. , believe it’s all true and God will honor it all that he said if we accept it and do what he said.
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By the way, do you notice John's differentiation there? It should settle this whole baptism issue.
John baptized Jews with water. Jews were very familiar with the practice of the Mikvah, the cleansing bath,water.
John washed Jews clean. He said the one that comes after him shall baptize with the holy ghost and with fire.
Jesus was God. We know through the OT passages and those in the new that God is a cleansing fire.
Hebrews 12:29For our God is a consuming fire.
And Jesus, who was also God, the word made flesh, is living water. Therefore, what John was describing as one who is coming is Jesus who will baptize with water and fire. Jesus was God, who is a consuming fire, and living water.
Further, we know Jesus did not Baptize anyone in water.
Yet, John said of Jesus' coming that he would baptize with water and fire.
And he did and does. As the water of life by which we shall never thirst. And as indwelling holy spirit fire, like unto what is recalled of the holy spirit lighting upon those gathered at Pentecost, Shavout. Acts 2.
Matthew 3: 11-12 “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
If John the baptist is to be believed then what he said of the coming Jesus did not happen as John promised if we insist liquid water Baptism is compulsory to insure our Salvation given Jesus himself never baptized anyone.
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/The-Water-Of-Life
John 7:38-39
He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’” But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
John 4:14
but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”
Proverbs 18:4
The words of a man’s mouth are deep waters;
The fountain of wisdom is a bubbling brook.
Psalm 110:7
He will drink from the brook by the wayside;
Therefore He will lift up His head.
Isaiah 12:3
Therefore you will joyously draw water
From the springs of salvation.
Genesis 3:22-24
Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.
Revelation 22:1-2
Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Revelation 22:14
Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
Ezekiel 47:9
It will come about that every living creature which swarms in every place where the river goes, will live. And there will be very many fish, for these waters go there and the others become fresh; so everything will live where the river goes.
John 4:13
Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again;
John 7:38
He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’”
John 7:39
But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
John baptized Jews with water. Jews were very familiar with the practice of the Mikvah, the cleansing bath,water.
John washed Jews clean. He said the one that comes after him shall baptize with the holy ghost and with fire.
Jesus was God. We know through the OT passages and those in the new that God is a cleansing fire.
Hebrews 12:29For our God is a consuming fire.
And Jesus, who was also God, the word made flesh, is living water. Therefore, what John was describing as one who is coming is Jesus who will baptize with water and fire. Jesus was God, who is a consuming fire, and living water.
Further, we know Jesus did not Baptize anyone in water.
Yet, John said of Jesus' coming that he would baptize with water and fire.
And he did and does. As the water of life by which we shall never thirst. And as indwelling holy spirit fire, like unto what is recalled of the holy spirit lighting upon those gathered at Pentecost, Shavout. Acts 2.
Matthew 3: 11-12 “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
If John the baptist is to be believed then what he said of the coming Jesus did not happen as John promised if we insist liquid water Baptism is compulsory to insure our Salvation given Jesus himself never baptized anyone.
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/The-Water-Of-Life
John 7:38-39
He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’” But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
John 4:14
but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”
Proverbs 18:4
The words of a man’s mouth are deep waters;
The fountain of wisdom is a bubbling brook.
Psalm 110:7
He will drink from the brook by the wayside;
Therefore He will lift up His head.
Isaiah 12:3
Therefore you will joyously draw water
From the springs of salvation.
Genesis 3:22-24
Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.
Revelation 22:1-2
Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Revelation 22:14
Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
Ezekiel 47:9
It will come about that every living creature which swarms in every place where the river goes, will live. And there will be very many fish, for these waters go there and the others become fresh; so everything will live where the river goes.
John 4:13
Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again;
John 7:38
He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’”
John 7:39
But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
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I responded to a different one of your posts sorting out some of that. If you get time, please see Post #1,263.
You’ll see that the “living water” is the Holy Spirit and that the water in being born of “water and Spirit” is not living water. Also, Jesus did baptize people. His disciples baptized more people than John.
You’ll see that the “living water” is the Holy Spirit and that the water in being born of “water and Spirit” is not living water. Also, Jesus did baptize people. His disciples baptized more people than John.
Yes, I saw your post.
Did you read John 4 that you referenced? It doesn't appear so.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+4&version=.
John 4:1 Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 2 (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples),
Did you read John 4 that you referenced? It doesn't appear so.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+4&version=.
John 4:1 Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 2 (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples),
Jesus doesn’t need to physically put His hands on anyone to baptize them if His disciples are doing it. They were baptized under His oversight and authority. Jesus baptized then like verse one says.
John 4:1
Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John
John 4:1
Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John
FreeGrace2 said:
All your repeated "copy and paste" posts fail to convince. Especially since I've refuted all the verses, and you are continuing to be DISHONEST about 1 Pet 3:21. It doesn't say water baptism saves. It says water baptism SYMBOLIZES the baptism that does save. Meaning, of course, the Holy Spirit.
Paul's own words in 1 Cor 1-
14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,
15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name.
16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.)
He was making the point that water baptism is NOT required for salvation. If it was, and Paul WAS the greatest evangelist ever, these words make no sense.
Further, Paul's answer to the jailer refutes your notion. Jailer asked what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul ignored baptism in his answer. He said "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved".
Yes, the jailer was baptized later, but Paul's answer certainly clarifies how one is saved. NO mention of water.
Eph 1:13,14 explain how a person becomes united with Christ. It is by believing in Him. Again, NO mention of water.
lol. Why don't you just address all the points I have made about all your repeated "copy and paste" posts?
Wow, talk abouty "transference". You sure know how to do it. Yes, you are NOT with me. I have provided clear Scripture that refutes your claims. It is not my heart that is hardened. It is yours, when you repeatedly reject the verses that refute your claims.
This is the response when a poster finally realizes that they can't refute others or defend their own views.
All your repeated "copy and paste" posts fail to convince. Especially since I've refuted all the verses, and you are continuing to be DISHONEST about 1 Pet 3:21. It doesn't say water baptism saves. It says water baptism SYMBOLIZES the baptism that does save. Meaning, of course, the Holy Spirit.
Paul's own words in 1 Cor 1-
14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,
15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name.
16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.)
He was making the point that water baptism is NOT required for salvation. If it was, and Paul WAS the greatest evangelist ever, these words make no sense.
Further, Paul's answer to the jailer refutes your notion. Jailer asked what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul ignored baptism in his answer. He said "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved".
Yes, the jailer was baptized later, but Paul's answer certainly clarifies how one is saved. NO mention of water.
Eph 1:13,14 explain how a person becomes united with Christ. It is by believing in Him. Again, NO mention of water.
lol. Why don't you just address all the points I have made about all your repeated "copy and paste" posts?
Wow, talk abouty "transference". You sure know how to do it. Yes, you are NOT with me. I have provided clear Scripture that refutes your claims. It is not my heart that is hardened. It is yours, when you repeatedly reject the verses that refute your claims.
This is the response when a poster finally realizes that they can't refute others or defend their own views.
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Jesus does bring about the reality of one's rebirth. As stated in the word, God watches over His word to perform it. (Jer. 1:11-12) Obedience to the God-given commands, initially presented on the Day of Pentecost, is an act of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in accordance with His sacrifice. Acting in faith to the stated commands brings about the reality of having one's sin washed away. Mankind submits to it and God performs the stated result. Receiving the indwelling of the Holy Ghost is also promised and occurs at times before water baptism, or after baptism, etc. as witnessed from the word. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)
It's their last post to you because you reject their false compilation of scripture copy and paste that hopes to invalidate Salvation by faith. And interject in its stead Salvation is contingdnt upon emmersion.
Areyou familiar with any denomination that upholds that teaching? I'm not familiar with all the different denominations doctrines.
Anyone know?
Areyou familiar with any denomination that upholds that teaching? I'm not familiar with all the different denominations doctrines.
Anyone know?
That's interpolation, not scripture.
Jesus saves. If, as some presume to insist, baptism is mandatory to secure Salvation, Jesus would have physically baptized people when he physically laid his life down to take the sins of the world upon himself on the cross.
He physically touched those he healed.
That Jesus was considered the rabbi leading his Disciples doesn't mean he would not also baptize the very people he was there to save if emmersion was congruent to Salvation and that being Jesus life's mission. To save people from sin.
Further, if one lets themselves believe baptism is mandatory else a sinner is not saved, we'll have a real issue then with explaining why Jesus was baptized by John.
When Jesus was without sin and was not in peril of dying in his sins due to his human nature being he was God the word, made flesh.
And what is spectacularly obvious with regard to the disciples baptizing people, with Jesus there,? They did this, in the company of Jesus, before Jesus was crucified.
https://biblehub.com/bsb/john/4.htm
Jesus saves. If, as some presume to insist, baptism is mandatory to secure Salvation, Jesus would have physically baptized people when he physically laid his life down to take the sins of the world upon himself on the cross.
He physically touched those he healed.
That Jesus was considered the rabbi leading his Disciples doesn't mean he would not also baptize the very people he was there to save if emmersion was congruent to Salvation and that being Jesus life's mission. To save people from sin.
Further, if one lets themselves believe baptism is mandatory else a sinner is not saved, we'll have a real issue then with explaining why Jesus was baptized by John.
When Jesus was without sin and was not in peril of dying in his sins due to his human nature being he was God the word, made flesh.
And what is spectacularly obvious with regard to the disciples baptizing people, with Jesus there,? They did this, in the company of Jesus, before Jesus was crucified.
https://biblehub.com/bsb/john/4.htm
The Holy Spirit didn't descend and rest upon Jesus until His water baptism. Make of that what you will, but scripture confirms that.
All of Jesus' disciples were water baptized according to John 4. Jesus was water baptizing and making disciples. Water baptism and discipleship always go together according to the Great Commission in Matthew 28:19-20.
John 3:5 Jesus said you must be born of water and Spirit. Immediately in the next chapter it is said that Jesus baptized and made more disciples than John. Though His disciples did the grunt work of dunking bodies in water, it was John the Baptist who said "He [Jesus] shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost."
The disciples that Jesus made were baptized by Jesus with the Holy Spirit which is evidenced by their ability to use the spiritual gifts they were given. In Luke 10:1-12, Jesus sends out 72 of His disciples to evangelize, telling them in verse 9 "...heal the sick that are therein..."
In Luke 10:17-20, the 72 disciples return with a report of their progress saying "Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name." To which Jesus replied "rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven."
So your false narrative that you keep persisting in is directly refuted by the word of God. Water baptism is commanded.
I do agree with you on one point and it's that water baptism is not essential for salvation of the soul. Water baptism is required for entrance into the Kingdom of God (John 3:5) which requires a glorified resurrected body according to Revelation 20:4-6.
Therefore water baptism is directly related to immortality of the body in the first resurrection and scripture confirms that from Old Testament to New Testament as far as I can tell.
All of Jesus' disciples were water baptized according to John 4. Jesus was water baptizing and making disciples. Water baptism and discipleship always go together according to the Great Commission in Matthew 28:19-20.
John 3:5 Jesus said you must be born of water and Spirit. Immediately in the next chapter it is said that Jesus baptized and made more disciples than John. Though His disciples did the grunt work of dunking bodies in water, it was John the Baptist who said "He [Jesus] shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost."
The disciples that Jesus made were baptized by Jesus with the Holy Spirit which is evidenced by their ability to use the spiritual gifts they were given. In Luke 10:1-12, Jesus sends out 72 of His disciples to evangelize, telling them in verse 9 "...heal the sick that are therein..."
In Luke 10:17-20, the 72 disciples return with a report of their progress saying "Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name." To which Jesus replied "rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven."
So your false narrative that you keep persisting in is directly refuted by the word of God. Water baptism is commanded.
I do agree with you on one point and it's that water baptism is not essential for salvation of the soul. Water baptism is required for entrance into the Kingdom of God (John 3:5) which requires a glorified resurrected body according to Revelation 20:4-6.
Therefore water baptism is directly related to immortality of the body in the first resurrection and scripture confirms that from Old Testament to New Testament as far as I can tell.
Do you know, and explain why this was done? iow, the purpose of Jesus' baptism by John?
To clarify, evangelism occurs in v.19, in 'making disciples'. That's when a person is saved.
In v.20 we have "teaching them to obey everything I taught you". This is discipleship for spiritual growth.
Jesus was commenting on Nic's confusion about being born again. He thought of a second PHYSICAL birth in v.4. So Jesus' answer included Nic's context to show there is MORE THAN physical birth to enter the kingdom. The SECOND birth is spiritual, not physical.
The context refutes the claim that water baptism is necessary for entrance into the kingdom.
The "immediacy" is immaterial. And that Jesus/disciples baptizing doesn't prove anything other than following the Great Commission Jesus gave His 11 disciples.
So water baptism is the beginning of spiritual growth through obedience.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a dry and REAL baptism (identification).
Until a believer really understands what the word refers to in common usage, they will never understand the biblical doctrine.
To clarify, evangelism occurs in v.19, in 'making disciples'. That's when a person is saved.
In v.20 we have "teaching them to obey everything I taught you". This is discipleship for spiritual growth.
Jesus was commenting on Nic's confusion about being born again. He thought of a second PHYSICAL birth in v.4. So Jesus' answer included Nic's context to show there is MORE THAN physical birth to enter the kingdom. The SECOND birth is spiritual, not physical.
The context refutes the claim that water baptism is necessary for entrance into the kingdom.
The "immediacy" is immaterial. And that Jesus/disciples baptizing doesn't prove anything other than following the Great Commission Jesus gave His 11 disciples.
So water baptism is the beginning of spiritual growth through obedience.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a dry and REAL baptism (identification).
Until a believer really understands what the word refers to in common usage, they will never understand the biblical doctrine.
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This is false on its face. The context is about a second physical birth, per Nic. So Jesus used Nic's context to make the point that it takes more than just physical birth to enter the kingdom. In fact, it takes a DIFFERENT KIND OF BIRTH to enter the kingdom.
This isn't even remotely related to John 3. Jesus wasn't talking about resurrection, but about a spiriual birth to enter the kingdom.
And consider the very next verse in John 3-
6 - Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
So, after telling Nic one must be BORN OF WATER and BORN OF THE SPIRIT, He further clarifies in v.6 by DIFFERENTIATING between physical and spiritual births.
This is very clear. But you have to pay attention to the whole context.
No, you are grossly misunderstanding the Bible.
You cannot argue against the context about Nic thinking of TWO physical births. So Jesus acknowledged TWO births alright, but one was physical and one is spiritual.
Furthermore, youe insistence on water baptism for resurrection is based on an obscure verse that no commentator understands and there is NO historical record to explain the practice.
And, it is about PROXY baptism anyway, and you have already agreed that there is NO BENEFIT to proxy baptisms.
This isn't even remotely related to John 3. Jesus wasn't talking about resurrection, but about a spiriual birth to enter the kingdom.
And consider the very next verse in John 3-
6 - Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
So, after telling Nic one must be BORN OF WATER and BORN OF THE SPIRIT, He further clarifies in v.6 by DIFFERENTIATING between physical and spiritual births.
This is very clear. But you have to pay attention to the whole context.
No, you are grossly misunderstanding the Bible.
You cannot argue against the context about Nic thinking of TWO physical births. So Jesus acknowledged TWO births alright, but one was physical and one is spiritual.
Furthermore, youe insistence on water baptism for resurrection is based on an obscure verse that no commentator understands and there is NO historical record to explain the practice.
And, it is about PROXY baptism anyway, and you have already agreed that there is NO BENEFIT to proxy baptisms.
It is wrong for anyone to insist Jesus baptized people when John 4 states he did not.
Furthermore, when we know Jesus is God, and Jesus was the living water, as he told the Samaritan woman he met at the well, and he was also God, holy spirit, like unto a consuming fire, and we also recollect John said one who is coming, Jesus, will baptize with water and fire, Jesus would be remiss in not emersing penetent people beneath water. Which he did not do, he did not baptize people. As we read in John 4.
Jesus did not Baptize anyone. Were baptism mandatory for Salvation Jesus would have led his students,disciples, by example in how to spread the Gospel by baptizing people after he delivered his sermons.
And when he was with his disciples who did baptize people (John 4) before sins were put under his blood to insure salvation after his crucifixion.
John 3, Jesus speak8ng with Nicodemus, Jesus 8nforms us what it means to be born again.
"6.Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.“
Not water emersion.
You Must Be Born Again
Berean Study Bible version
From John 3 and Jesus discussion with Nicodemus regarding being born again.
John 3:5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
We're not born again by emersion. We're born of the spirit.
Note also, I checked this first. Mormons,LDS, insist baptism is msndatory to enter heaven.
Furthermore, when we know Jesus is God, and Jesus was the living water, as he told the Samaritan woman he met at the well, and he was also God, holy spirit, like unto a consuming fire, and we also recollect John said one who is coming, Jesus, will baptize with water and fire, Jesus would be remiss in not emersing penetent people beneath water. Which he did not do, he did not baptize people. As we read in John 4.
Jesus did not Baptize anyone. Were baptism mandatory for Salvation Jesus would have led his students,disciples, by example in how to spread the Gospel by baptizing people after he delivered his sermons.
And when he was with his disciples who did baptize people (John 4) before sins were put under his blood to insure salvation after his crucifixion.
John 3, Jesus speak8ng with Nicodemus, Jesus 8nforms us what it means to be born again.
"6.Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.“
Not water emersion.
You Must Be Born Again
Berean Study Bible version
From John 3 and Jesus discussion with Nicodemus regarding being born again.
John 3:5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
We're not born again by emersion. We're born of the spirit.
Note also, I checked this first. Mormons,LDS, insist baptism is msndatory to enter heaven.
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You're splitting hairs by insisting that because Jesus did not physically baptize anyone that He wasn't the one responsible for it.
John 7:39 says the living water is the Holy Spirit. I have already told you this once. Therefore, the water in being born of "water and Spirit" is not also the Holy Spirit or you would have Jesus saying "you must be born of Spirit and Spirit" which is nonsense and not how God talks nor is that a Bible doctrine repeatedly elsewhere. Big red flag you're way off base. Please hear what I am telling you.
Your hermeneutic is not Biblically consistent. Consider Matthew 25, the parable of the talents:
Matthew 25:26
26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
As you can see here, the master had servants who worked for him doing his business. He reap where he did not sow and gathered where he did not scatter seed because he's the property owner and takes for credit for the performance of the business. Jesus being master of the water baptisms is the same.
Also consider, in the modern day, all business owners and leader take full credit and responsibility for the performance of their operation. That's why John 4:1 says that Jesus did the baptizing even though He didn't physically do them. Jesus reaps the glory. In the same way, we use our free will to obey our Heavenly Father and bring Him glory. I you still disagree that's a problem.
Being born of water and Spirit is how Jesus defines being born again. The first birth is a flesh birth and not a rebirth so it's impossible to be "born again" via a live birth in amniotic fluid. Like Nicodemus who thought it was possible to reenter his mother and be born a second time, you too are wrong. The water component of being born of water and Spirit is water baptism because Jesus doesn't need to tell people who are alive they were born,.
Furthermore, John 1:11-13 directly refutes your claims. Almost everything you say stands in contradiction to the Bible.
Being born of flesh and blood has no relevancy to being born again.
John 1:11-13
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Jesus said you must be born of water and Spirit. Repeatedly water baptism is used as an image of resurrection: Romans 6:4,5, 1 Cor. 15, 1 Peter 3:21, and there's probably more.
I don't know why you're telling me this since I never said you need to be water baptized to go to "heaven." If by heaven you mean the dwelling place of God. The Kingdom of God (millennial kingdom) and Heaven are two entirely different places.
Nor am I a Mormon aka a Latter Day Saint and reject nearly everything they say. I'm not sure you and I are even speaking about the same thing here. Water baptism is for resurrection, not salvation of the soul.[/QUOTE]
John 7:39 says the living water is the Holy Spirit. I have already told you this once. Therefore, the water in being born of "water and Spirit" is not also the Holy Spirit or you would have Jesus saying "you must be born of Spirit and Spirit" which is nonsense and not how God talks nor is that a Bible doctrine repeatedly elsewhere. Big red flag you're way off base. Please hear what I am telling you.
Your hermeneutic is not Biblically consistent. Consider Matthew 25, the parable of the talents:
Matthew 25:26
26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
As you can see here, the master had servants who worked for him doing his business. He reap where he did not sow and gathered where he did not scatter seed because he's the property owner and takes for credit for the performance of the business. Jesus being master of the water baptisms is the same.
Also consider, in the modern day, all business owners and leader take full credit and responsibility for the performance of their operation. That's why John 4:1 says that Jesus did the baptizing even though He didn't physically do them. Jesus reaps the glory. In the same way, we use our free will to obey our Heavenly Father and bring Him glory. I you still disagree that's a problem.
Being born of water and Spirit is how Jesus defines being born again. The first birth is a flesh birth and not a rebirth so it's impossible to be "born again" via a live birth in amniotic fluid. Like Nicodemus who thought it was possible to reenter his mother and be born a second time, you too are wrong. The water component of being born of water and Spirit is water baptism because Jesus doesn't need to tell people who are alive they were born,.
Furthermore, John 1:11-13 directly refutes your claims. Almost everything you say stands in contradiction to the Bible.
Being born of flesh and blood has no relevancy to being born again.
John 1:11-13
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Jesus said you must be born of water and Spirit. Repeatedly water baptism is used as an image of resurrection: Romans 6:4,5, 1 Cor. 15, 1 Peter 3:21, and there's probably more.
I don't know why you're telling me this since I never said you need to be water baptized to go to "heaven." If by heaven you mean the dwelling place of God. The Kingdom of God (millennial kingdom) and Heaven are two entirely different places.
Nor am I a Mormon aka a Latter Day Saint and reject nearly everything they say. I'm not sure you and I are even speaking about the same thing here. Water baptism is for resurrection, not salvation of the soul.[/QUOTE]
