The powers that be...

[Shepherd]

Romans 13
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4For he is the minister of God to thee for good.

What about "higher powers" like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, or Putin?
What about King George III, his American "subjects", and their ultimate resistance?
Weren't they also among "the powers that be are ordained of God"?

 

[Live4Him3]

Don't miss the bold-faced qualifiers because they tell us exactly what type of rulers God is referring to.

Romans chapter 13

[1] Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
[2] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
[3] For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
[4] For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
[5] Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
[6] For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

The rulers who are ordained of God are NOT a terror to good works, but to the evil, and if we do that which is good, then we shall have praise of the same. However, if we do that which is evil, then we need to be afraid; for he bears not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that does evil.

Does this sound like Hitler, Stalin, or Mao to you?

It doesn't sound even remotely like them to me because they are not the types of rulers that God was talking about here.

 

[Magenta]

I watched a movie about John Gotti last night. He was an American gangster and boss of the Gambino crime family in New York City. He ordered and helped to orchestrate the murder of Gambino boss Paul Castellano in December 1985 and took over the family shortly thereafter, becoming boss of what has been described as America's most powerful crime syndicate (<= wiki). After he was jailed and got cancer which he eventually died from, some of the regular folks in New York said the streets were safer when he had control. He never killed innocent bystanders, for example, only his own who did not fall in line. Quite unlike the punks that then quickly filled the vacuum of street drug trade as the rest of the "family" was subsequently felled by law enforcement, which, by the way, was not averse to stooping to illegal and immoral activities themselves. Gives one pause...

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

What about "higher powers" like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, or Putin?
What about King George III, his American "subjects", and their ultimate resistance?
Weren't they also among "the powers that be are ordained of God"?

Perhaps. Consider the below passages:

Daniel 2:21 NLT - "He controls the course of world events; he removes kings and sets up other kings. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the scholars."

Job 12:23-25 NLT - "He builds up nations, and he destroys them. He expands nations, and he abandons them. He strips kings of understanding and leaves them wandering in a pathless wasteland. They grope in the darkness without a light. He makes them stagger like drunkards."

If we believe what the Bible says, it seems obvious to me that God is in control of all things. How else could He fulfill His Eternal Plan . . . right?

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Romans 13
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4For he is the minister of God to thee for good.

What about "higher powers" like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, or Putin?
What about King George III, his American "subjects", and their ultimate resistance?
Weren't they also among "the powers that be are ordained of God"?

Sounds to me like he is talking about Christ, the higher power.

 

[tourist]

Romans 13
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4For he is the minister of God to thee for good.

What about "higher powers" like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, or Putin?
What about King George III, his American "subjects", and their ultimate resistance?
Weren't they also among "the powers that be are ordained of God"?

God has appointed all of those in positions of authority whether or not they are perceived as good or evil.

 

[shittim]

Dietrich Bonhoeffer was killed by Hitler, hitlers foundation for his anti-jewish hate was based on Luther's writings. This was a "leader' not raised up by God for good, he was the result on man failing to "take and hold" as Jesus commanded.

 

[Adstar]

Romans 13
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4For he is the minister of God to thee for good.

What about "higher powers" like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, or Putin?
What about King George III, his American "subjects", and their ultimate resistance?
Weren't they also among "the powers that be are ordained of God"?

Being subject to higher powers does not mean that they are good... I believe the spirit of the verses are against revolution against the powers that be.. Now of course some worldly powers will persecute Christians and introduce laws that are opposed to the teachings of the LORD when that happens Christians should keep following the teachings of the LORD and take what ever persecution the evil powers dish out upon us.. Obviously when the Anti-Christ comes to power and institutes the worship of his image and the Mark of the beast Christians within his empire will have to refuse those and will be beheaded as a result..

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

God has appointed all of those in positions of authority whether or not they are perceived as good or evil.

That's what all of my translations say. If we would just read our Bibles . . .

 

[shittim]

Or seek Holy Spirit guidance who will guide us in ALL truth, as Jesus commanded.
Governments that have caused trauma to it's citizens for the last 3 years are NOT of God.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/5ueOTOcyeWI6/

 

[JaumeJ]

“And looking intently at the council, Paul said, “Brothers, I have lived my life before God in all good conscience up to this day.” 2 And the high priest Ananias commanded those who stood by him to strike him on the mouth. 3 Then Paul said to him, “God is going to strike you, you whitewashed wall! Are you sitting to judge me according to the law, and yet contrary to the law you order me to be struck?” 4 Those who stood by said, “Would you revile God’s high priest?” 5 And Paul said, “I did not know, brothers, that he was the high priest, for it is written, ‘You shall not speak evil of a ruler of your people.’ ” (Acts 23:1–5)

Paul talked back to a person whom he was taken by Paul to be a person in authority. However when Paul realized it was the High Priest for that year, he begged pardon for not recognizing his, the priest's, authority.

The High Prist for that year was the ultimate authority according to the law. We, as being Messianic, that is, belonging to the Messiah owe our allegiance to Him, first andforemost..

I do not advise any to go out and challenge a cop whenstopped for any reason. Common sense is expected when reading and learning, and especially passing on the Word.

 

[Jesusfollower]

Romans 13
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4For he is the minister of God to thee for good.

What about "higher powers" like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, or Putin?
What about King George III, his American "subjects", and their ultimate resistance?
Weren't they also among "the powers that be are ordained of God"?

Hello shepherd, do you think the people you mentioned were ordained by the Lord? personally i do not.

Blessings,

JF

 

[pottersclay]

I watched a movie about John Gotti last night. He was an American gangster and boss of the Gambino crime family in New York City. He ordered and helped to orchestrate the murder of Gambino boss Paul Castellano in December 1985 and took over the family shortly thereafter, becoming boss of what has been described as America's most powerful crime syndicate (<= wiki). After he was jailed and got cancer which he eventually died from, some of the regular folks in New York said the streets were safer when he had control. He never killed innocent bystanders, for example, only his own who did not fall in line. Quite unlike the punks that then quickly filled the vacuum of street drug trade as the rest of the "family" was subsequently felled by law enforcement, which, by the way, was not averse to stooping to illegal and immoral activities themselves. Gives one pause...

Back in the day the crime bosses ruled the streets. They brought order even though they themselves were lawless.
They said who and what could be done and sold.
Believe it or not the hells angles also were hired for protection and order in the streets.
Local authorities allow some drug dealers and such to operate as to know whats happening in the streets today. The whos and whats. Especially when it comes to heroin and meth and crack.
The poor souls that are addicted to these drugs are far more dangerous when they cannot score than when they are fixed. Which leads to a more peaceful community.
Its so sad to see this going on.
Dont ask me how i know this because if i tell ya....well never mind😮😮😆😆

 

[shittim]

I was told by a man from the south that the KKK also had a function of preserving social order, a man who abused his wife, wouldn't work, had a drinking problem etc. could be visited and reminded to straighten up or else. The law waits until there is a crime and then destroys what little family structure there is in way too many cases.

 

[Beckie]

Romans 13
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4For he is the minister of God to thee for good.

my opinion ...
God sees everything at one time past present future . His ways are far above ours . I do not look for a way to release God of His authority over His creation. I dont like that Hitler was in power but more then my dislikes I trust the Lord.

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

I trust the Lord . This world is His creation not man's. We twist pull divide etc. Scripture working to make it fit our view of what we think it should be.

Exo_19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

He does not say in Romans anything like "i only put nice guys in power" No way do i would i claim to understand the whys of what He does or does not do . Simple child like faith we trust Him.

 

[shittim]

Thanks Beckie

 

[Live4Him3]

Romans 13
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4For he is the minister of God to thee for good.

my opinion ...
God sees everything at one time past present future . His ways are far above ours . I do not look for a way to release God of His authority over His creation. I dont like that Hitler was in power but more then my dislikes I trust the Lord.

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

I trust the Lord . This world is His creation not man's. We twist pull divide etc. Scripture working to make it fit our view of what we think it should be.

Exo_19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

He does not say in Romans anything like "i only put nice guys in power" No way do i would i claim to understand the whys of what He does or does not do . Simple child like faith we trust Him.

Oh, please.

In no way, shape, or form was God talking about rulers like Pharaoh in Romans chapter 13.

Pharaoh assigned cruel taskmasters over God's people, and when the people cried out to God, he sent them Moses to deliver them.

Do you HONESTLY believe that God wanted his people to submit to a ruler like Pharaoh?

If so, then why did he send them a deliverer to deliver them from the same?

Also, why did God bless the midwives who DISOBEYED Pharaoh's command that they kill all of the male children as soon as they were born?

Exodus chapter 1

[15] And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah:
[16] And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.
[17] But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive.
[18] And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive?
[19] And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them.
[20] Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.
[21] And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses.
[22] And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive.

And what about Moses' parents?

Did they sin against God by hiding Moses instead of submitting to Pharaoh while allowing him to kill Moses?

Exodus chapter 2

[1] And there went a man of the house of Levi, and took to wife a daughter of Levi.
[2] And the woman conceived, and bare a son: and when she saw him that he was a goodly child, she hid him three months.

Excuse my plainness of speech, but what you've written here is just plain old nonsense.

 

[Beckie]

Oh, please.

In no way, shape, or form was God talking about rulers like Pharaoh in Romans chapter 13.

Pharaoh assigned cruel taskmasters over God's people, and when the people cried out to God, he sent them Moses to deliver them.

Do you HONESTLY believe that God wanted his people to submit to a ruler like Pharaoh?

If so, then why did he send them a deliverer to deliver them from the same?

Also, why did God bless the midwives who DISOBEYED Pharaoh's command that they kill all of the male children as soon as they were born?

Exodus chapter 1

[15] And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah:
[16] And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.
[17] But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive.
[18] And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive?
[19] And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them.
[20] Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.
[21] And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses.
[22] And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive.

And what about Moses' parents?

Did they sin against God by hiding Moses instead of submitting to Pharaoh while allowing him to kill Moses?

Exodus chapter 2

[1] And there went a man of the house of Levi, and took to wife a daughter of Levi.
[2] And the woman conceived, and bare a son: and when she saw him that he was a goodly child, she hid him three months.

Excuse my plainness of speech, but what you've written here is just plain old nonsense.

I like plain speech . I speak plain

Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

I believe God knew He would be sending the plagues which would be killing the first born across Egypt. God sent the Flood in Noah's day. God knew King hearod will be butchering the the toddlers at the time of Christs birth.


"If so, then why did he send them a deliverer to deliver them from the same?"
Rom_15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

 

[Journeyman]

Romans 13
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4For he is the minister of God to thee for good.

What about "higher powers" like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, or Putin?
What about King George III, his American "subjects", and their ultimate resistance?
Weren't they also among "the powers that be are ordained of God"?

You're right.

 

[Live4Him3]

I like plain speech . I speak plain

Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

I believe God knew He would be sending the plagues which would be killing the first born across Egypt. God sent the Flood in Noah's day. God knew King hearod will be butchering the the toddlers at the time of Christs birth.

Yes, God, in his foreknowledge, knew that all of these things would occur well in advance of them actually playing out in history.

However, this still doesn't mean that God wanted his people to submit to the likes of Pharaoh and King Herod.

For example, if God wanted his people to submit to King Herod, then why did he warn the Magi NOT to return to King Herod when they had previously agreed to do so?

Matthew chapter 2

[1] Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
[2] Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
[3] When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
[4] And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
[5] And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
[6] And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
[7] Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
[8] And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
[9] When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
[10] When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
[11] And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
[12] And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.

Anyhow, these types of rulers don't fit the description that we're actually given in Romans chapter 13, even as I've already documented in a previous post on this thread.