IF 'THE DEAD' don't rise then who do we rule and reign over?
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It isn't written 'saved and unsaved', those are the words, why are you using them?
Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.
And I am wondering if it is time to exercise myself, and move away from this conversation. One last try. /QUOTE]
What do you think "righteous" and "wicked" means? Salvation by lifestyle???
I sure hope you don't. The ONLY REASON the saved are called the "righteous" is because believers have been placed into UNION with Christ at salvation. So we SHARE what He has. He is perfect righteousness, and believers share that, positionally. Certainly NOT experientially while on earth in our mortal bodies.
OK, one more TRY, as you say.
The phrase "already passed out of death into life" is a direct comment about passing from SPIRITUAL death INTO SPIRITUAL life.
Are you saying none of your parents, grandparents (those who are saved) ever died?
When you hear reports of saved people dying, you you just dismiss them as not really saved?
I just don't understand your difficulty with all this.
Heb 9:27 SAYS everyone will physically DIE. But you don't believe that saved people CAN die. Your opinion is in direct conflict with Heb 9:27. You ARE going to die, even if you are saved.
There is NO ONE in heaven with a physical body, and never will be.
Paul explained all this.
1 Cor 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
Tell you what: read all of 1 Cor 15 and if you aren't convinced that all saved people will die physically, then you just refuse to be convinced.
The "hour" has not been revealed. We only know approximately. All the saved will be resurrected/glorified "when He comes" back at the Second Advent, but we don't have a date for that. And all the unsaved will be resurrected after the battle of Gog and Magog at the end of the Millennial reign.
Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.
And I am wondering if it is time to exercise myself, and move away from this conversation. One last try. /QUOTE]
What do you think "righteous" and "wicked" means? Salvation by lifestyle???
I sure hope you don't. The ONLY REASON the saved are called the "righteous" is because believers have been placed into UNION with Christ at salvation. So we SHARE what He has. He is perfect righteousness, and believers share that, positionally. Certainly NOT experientially while on earth in our mortal bodies.
What does this say to you?
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent me,
hath everlasting life,
2192. echó ►
Strong's Concordance
echó: to have, hold
Original Word: ἔχω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: echó
Phonetic Spelling: (ekh'-o)
Definition: to have, hold
Usage: I have, hold, possess.
and shall not come into condemnation;
2920. krisis ►
Strong's Concordance
krisis: a decision, judgment
Original Word: κρίσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: krisis
Phonetic Spelling: (kree'-sis)
Definition: a decision, judgment
Usage: judging, judgment, decision, sentence; generally: divine judgment; accusation.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 2920 krísis (a feminine noun derived from 2919 /krínō, "to separate, distinguish, judge") – judgment, emphasizing its qualitative aspect that can apply either to a positive verdict (for righteousness) – or more commonly, a "negative" verdict which condemns the nature of sin that brings it on. See 2919 (krinō).
[2917 (kríma) stresses the results that go with a particular judgment (of blessing or pain depending on the choice).]
but is passed from death unto life.
HOW IT READS IN THE GREEK
Truly truly I say to you that the [one] the word of Me hearing and believing the {ONE} having sent Me, HE HAS LIFE ETERNAL AND INTO JUDGMENT NOT COMES BUT HAS PASSED OUT OF DEATH INTO LIFE
If we have ALREADY PASSED OUT OF DEATH INTO LIFE
then WE WILL NEVER BE DEAD again
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent me,
hath everlasting life,
2192. echó ►
Strong's Concordance
echó: to have, hold
Original Word: ἔχω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: echó
Phonetic Spelling: (ekh'-o)
Definition: to have, hold
Usage: I have, hold, possess.
and shall not come into condemnation;
2920. krisis ►
Strong's Concordance
krisis: a decision, judgment
Original Word: κρίσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: krisis
Phonetic Spelling: (kree'-sis)
Definition: a decision, judgment
Usage: judging, judgment, decision, sentence; generally: divine judgment; accusation.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 2920 krísis (a feminine noun derived from 2919 /krínō, "to separate, distinguish, judge") – judgment, emphasizing its qualitative aspect that can apply either to a positive verdict (for righteousness) – or more commonly, a "negative" verdict which condemns the nature of sin that brings it on. See 2919 (krinō).
[2917 (kríma) stresses the results that go with a particular judgment (of blessing or pain depending on the choice).]
but is passed from death unto life.
HOW IT READS IN THE GREEK
Truly truly I say to you that the [one] the word of Me hearing and believing the {ONE} having sent Me, HE HAS LIFE ETERNAL AND INTO JUDGMENT NOT COMES BUT HAS PASSED OUT OF DEATH INTO LIFE
If we have ALREADY PASSED OUT OF DEATH INTO LIFE
then WE WILL NEVER BE DEAD again
The phrase "already passed out of death into life" is a direct comment about passing from SPIRITUAL death INTO SPIRITUAL life.
so WE WILL NEVER be amongst the dead, not for any period of time.
When you hear reports of saved people dying, you you just dismiss them as not really saved?
I just don't understand your difficulty with all this.
Heb 9:27 SAYS everyone will physically DIE. But you don't believe that saved people CAN die. Your opinion is in direct conflict with Heb 9:27. You ARE going to die, even if you are saved.
making it impossible for us to resurrect with the dead because we will not have gone to hell but we will have gone to heaven
SO, WE CAN'T BE 'THE DEAD' WHO RISE WHEN CHRIST RETURNS because we don't go to hell WE have received the gift of salvation.
SO, WE CAN'T BE 'THE DEAD' WHO RISE WHEN CHRIST RETURNS because we don't go to hell WE have received the gift of salvation.
Paul explained all this.
1 Cor 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
Tell you what: read all of 1 Cor 15 and if you aren't convinced that all saved people will die physically, then you just refuse to be convinced.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
I do believe people die once and then judgment.
I have continuously stated they go to heaven in their spiritual bodies to return with the Lord when He does.
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
The word "raised" means "resurrection". Here, Paul says clearly that at the resurrection saved people will have a spiritual body. Not before.
ALWAYS the same. Never changes in any way shape or form. Just as I say those who rose from their graves were in their spiritual bodies and were 'seen' for awhile and then ascended to heaven and I believe it is spoken of 'led the captivity'....
AGAIN, I have NEVER SAID the dead don't resurrect. NOT ONE TIME. Never. I have said those who are living and believe in Him NEVER DIE.
They pass through death by dropping off the flesh and rising in their spiritual bodies to go be where HE is and He is in heaven.
1st death is of flesh body . 2nd death is of both body and soul
YOU CAN KEEP SAYING it is the 'dead body' THAT comes back to life, but you are the only one
AS IT IS NOT WRITTEN THAT THE DEAD BODY WILL RISE BACK TO LIFE.
Looking up the word 'perish' we find it's definition to be
622. apollumi ►
Strong's Concordance
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).
622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.
[This is also the meaning of 622 /apóllymi dating back to Homer (900 bc.]
622. apollumi ►
Strong's Concordance
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).
622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.
[This is also the meaning of 622 /apóllymi dating back to Homer (900 bc.]
FreeGrace2 said:
Yes, Jesus even died for those who would never believe in Him. Nothing about soul destruction.
Let me rephrase: there is NOTHING about souls being destroyed in "what is written".
Or show me clear verses about souls being annihilated. There is NO evidence for that.
Yes, Jesus even died for those who would never believe in Him. Nothing about soul destruction.
Using your own words again, instead of what is written.
Or show me clear verses about souls being annihilated. There is NO evidence for that.
LIKE SMOKE, THEIR TORMENT GOES UP FOR EVER AND EVER.
Like when the fat of meat hits a hot coal. LOF during this earth age, not next one. All things made new. List goes on and on
Like when the fat of meat hits a hot coal. LOF during this earth age, not next one. All things made new. List goes on and on
Rev 20:10 - And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
So, instead of quoting Deut 30:11-20, just quote the exact verse that mentions total destruction of the soul. You didn't even bold anything to emphasize what you think the Bible says.
In Rev 20:10, the Bible is speaking of the final condition of the unsaved, plus Satan and all fallen angels.
The words "day and night" are a specific time period, and when added to "for ever and ever" make it all literal.
Yes, the words "for ever and ever" can be used figuratively, but when specific time period is added, makes it all literal.
I know you won't accept this though.
John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Now you can call this the spiritual going from dead to born again, but the SUBJECT tells us that is not what is being spoken of.
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Now you can call this the spiritual going from dead to born again, but the SUBJECT tells us that is not what is being spoken of.
FreeGrace2 said:
On resurrection day, "when He comes", per 1 Cor 15:23, Jesus brings with Him all the dead saints and resurrects their dead bodies out of the grave and glorified and joins them to their souls. Voila. A glorified believer.
Nope. It's clear to me that your eyes and ears are just not open to clear verses.
On resurrection day, "when He comes", per 1 Cor 15:23, Jesus brings with Him all the dead saints and resurrects their dead bodies out of the grave and glorified and joins them to their souls. Voila. A glorified believer.
DO WE NEED TO COVER THIS STUFF YET AGAIN?
FreeGrace2 said:
This doesn't make sense. You've been saying that the saved will NOT die. What gives?
Oh, I have been. That is why I know what you post doesn't make sense.
This doesn't make sense. You've been saying that the saved will NOT die. What gives?
I wish you could follow.
FreeGrace2 said:
Please show me any verse that actually describes souls that have been destroyed.
Don't you realize that posting any verse that does describes souls being destroyed WILL finish this subject?????
Please show me any verse that actually describes souls that have been destroyed.
If we ever get this subject finished I will.
John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Now you can call this the spiritual going from dead to born again, but the SUBJECT tells us that is not what is being spoken of.
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Now you can call this the spiritual going from dead to born again, but the SUBJECT tells us that is not what is being spoken of.
v.28 does NOT support your claim. Jesus was teaching that EVERY person will be raised from the grave, the saved and the unsaved.
FreeGrace2 said:
Sure, hide in the OT all you want.
The revelant verse is what I gave you; Rev 20:10. The torment in the lake of fire will be "day and night, for ever and ever".
A "day and night" is a specific reference to a 24 hour period. When "for ever and ever" is added to that, we have an eternity. That's how long torment will last.
Every day, for ever and ever.
I said "hide" as a figure of speech. The OT doesn't include the words "day and night" with "for ever and ever". So those uses obviously are figures of speech for simply a long time.
Sure, hide in the OT all you want.
Hide? Are you serious?
A "day and night" is a specific reference to a 24 hour period. When "for ever and ever" is added to that, we have an eternity. That's how long torment will last.
Every day, for ever and ever.
I said "hide" as a figure of speech. The OT doesn't include the words "day and night" with "for ever and ever". So those uses obviously are figures of speech for simply a long time.
FreeGrace2 said:
It seems you are an annihilationist then. I reject that as heresy. The Bible never speaks of God eliminating the soul, and the Bible is clear that all unbelievers will end up in the lake of fire and be tormented day and night, for ever and ever. That is literal.
Good with me. Seems I finally hit a nerve.
It seems you are an annihilationist then. I reject that as heresy. The Bible never speaks of God eliminating the soul, and the Bible is clear that all unbelievers will end up in the lake of fire and be tormented day and night, for ever and ever. That is literal.
and we are done.