Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation

[Phoneman-777]

already told you in post #738 days ago
is it my fault if you refuse to read?

I don't want to read what you wrote then because your beliefs have been known to "evolve". What say you on the subject now?

Do you refuse to believe "he that doeth righteousness is righteous" and that "not the hearers of the law, but the doers of the law shall be justified in His sight"?

Remember, ALL Scripture is given by inspiration, not just the ones we think support our doctrine, and we're not free to ignore those we cannot explain which seem to teach contrary to our beliefs. We must stop from forming preconceived notions and then searching the Bible for support while skipping over that which causes trouble, right or wrong?

BTW, before you possibly misrepresent my position, I firmly assert that no one is saved by keeping the law.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It seems the only explanation you give concerning these verses is to ignore them and focus on the others which say the opposite.

Really? You mean there are verses that contradict each other? I had no idea!!

Actually, when someone comes to verses that "say the opposite" of other verses, shows that they fail to properly understand either one or both of the verses.

 

[arthurfleminger]

While not all Christians believe that good works are necessary for salvation, I honestly believe that all Christians, 100%, believe that good works are important. This is the way we show our love for our brothers and sisters in need.

So, there shouldn't really be any debate about the importance of good works.

 

[gb9]

While not all Christians believe that good works are necessary for salvation, I honestly believe that all Christians, 100%, believe that good works are important. This is the way we show our love for our brothers and sisters in need.

So, there shouldn't really be any debate about the importance of good works.

100% agree.

but, we are not saved by those works, they are a result of salvation.

 

[Goliath]

Thanks! And please remember that only those who "keep His commandments" have a "right to the Tree of Life and may enter into the gates to the city".

All those who claim to love Jesus but refuse to keep His commandments when they know they ought are "liars and the truth is not in him" according to 1 John 2:3-4 KJV. I pray any who once were convicted but have turned from the holy commandment delivered unto them will turn back, and that those who will come under conviction will walk in the light while they have it, lest darkness come upon them.

Shalom!

Brother, Were on the same page!

 

[Jackson123]

Work is manifestation of faith
For example on story of noah
God told Noah He will float the earth,
Noah believe or have faith
His faith make him work thousands of hours to build an giant ark
How he say have a faith but not build an ark??

What save him build an ark or his faith?
It is faith that save him without faith he will not build an ark

 

[Goliath]

do you understand that in 1 John 3:9 and in John 8:34 the Greek tense clearly indicates an ongoing practice of sin, not any one-time or short-term act of sin?
that the English language does not have such a tense, such that you may be deceived about what Christ is saying & John is reiterating, if you do not take the whole counsel of scripture?

To be honest, I do not read from a bible written in Greek. The reason?...I do not speak Greek. For this reason, the bibles which I do read from, have already been translated into the English language.

 

[Goliath]

Work is manifestation of faith
For example on story of noah
God told Noah He will float the earth,
Noah believe or have faith
His faith make him work thousands of hours to build an giant ark
How he say have a faith but not build an ark??

What save him build an ark or his faith?
It is faith that save him without faith he will not build an ark

But...would God have saved him if he hadn't built the Ark?

 

[Goliath]

100% agree.

but, we are not saved by those works, they are a result of salvation.

Did Noah build the Ark after he was saved?

 

[Goliath]

2 Thessalonians is interesting.
notice that he says their faith and their love for each other is evidence of their salvation, not their sinless lives of strict obedience to the law.

I agree....Salvation is about changing our hearts....but that change comes by way of obedience to God.
When your heart is changed...you will love God, and you will love your neighbor.
Brother, Sin is not a sign that you love God or love your neighbor.

But again..don't believe me....
Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
(Romans 13:8-10)

Now, if Love does no harm to a neighbor, and you sin, which according to Paul, harms your neighbor, Do you love your neighbor?

 

[posthuman]

To be honest, I do not read from a bible written in Greek. The reason?...I do not speak Greek. For this reason, the bibles which I do read from, have already been translated into the English language.

are you not interested in fully understanding what it says?

 

[Goliath]

John very clearly said that those who claim to be "without sin are self deceived". v.8

No, Everlasting Grace isn't rejecting what John wrote. You aren't understanding what he wrote.

Here is the verse: No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
Red words refer to the NEW CREATURE, the born again, regenerated human spirit, which CANNOT sin..

[/QUOTE]

So you are saying...You were a sinner before you were saved, and you are a sinner after you are saved.
If you were a sinner before you were saved, and a sinner after you are saved, please explain how that make you a new creation.

 

[Goliath]

are you not interested in fully understanding what it says?

To be honest...
I am not interested in re-translating a bible that has already been translated. Translated by folks who are more capable than I will ever be. And besides...I am taught by the Holy Spirit, like all those folks who were saved before the Bible was made available, available to folks like you and me.🤓

 

[posthuman]

I agree....Salvation is about changing our hearts....but that change comes by way of obedience to God.
When your heart is changed...you will love God, and you will love your neighbor.
Brother, Sin is not a sign that you love God or love your neighbor.

But again..don't believe me....
Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
(Romans 13:8-10)

Now, if Love does no harm to a neighbor, and you sin, which according to Paul, harms your neighbor, Do you love your neighbor?

why does Paul call love a continual debt?
if it is continual, it is never paid - therefore if your salvation is accomplished by it or dependent on it, that salvation is neither ever accomplished, but continually lacking.

Romans is the Leviticus of the NT. we don't have chapter 13 without chapters 1-12 before it, in which it is painstakingly and clearly laid out that salvation is entirely by grace, through faith in the work of God -- not accomplished by works, not maintained by works, and not dependent on works: by faith.
that salvation is unto good works and God will not fail to build us up: therefore we encourage each other not to be as fools, but to be wise.

so let's not abandon 2 Thessalonians so quickly.
we already saw how in the 1st two chapters Paul makes it clear the salvation of these people is manifest in their faith and love for one another, and prays that they be strengthened in works - clearly establishing that salvation is independent of works, but based on faith and witnessed by love.
see now how he closes the letter:

But you, brethren, do not grow weary doing good. And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet do not count as an enemy, but admonish as a brother.
(2 Thessalonians 3:13-15)
​

isn't it interesting how that a man who stumbles, sinning, being disobedient suffers consequences -- but is still called "brother" ?
didn't we read Christ earlier, explaining that a son is always family?

let me ask you:
were we saved into the family of God, becoming His children, or did we become His slaves?

let us learn a lesson from our Lord:

Jesus anticipated him, saying, “What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth take customs or taxes, from their sons or from strangers?”​

Peter said to Him, “From strangers.”​

Jesus said to him, “Then the sons are free. Nevertheless, lest we offend them, go to the sea, cast in a hook, and take the fish that comes up first. And when you have opened its mouth, you will find a piece of money; take that and give it to them for Me and you.”
(Matthew 17:25-27)​

 

[posthuman]

To be honest...
I am not interested in re-translating a bible that has already been translated. Translated by folks who are more capable than I will ever be. And besides...I am taught by the Holy Spirit, like all those folks who were saved before the Bible was made available, to folks like you and me.🤓

i have not followed the whole thread, so i don't know your entire conversation here. but if you were taught by a spirit that says if your foot stumbles even once, you have lost your salvation, then i do not agree that was the spirit of God. salvation that can be lost is no salvation at all: our God is faithful, and will complete the work He begins in us.
it is never foolish to study and grow in understanding

A righteous man may fall seven times and rise again ​

(Proverbs 24:16)​

​

May God Himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. ​

May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. ​

The One who calls you is faithful, and He will do it.​

(1 Thessalonians 5:23-24)​

​

 

[Goliath]

if you were taught by a spirit that says if your foot stumbles even once, you have lost your salvation, then i do not agree that was the spirit of God. salvation that can be lost is no salvation at all: our God is faithful, and will complete the work He begins in us.
it is never foolish to study and grow in understanding.

​

Actually I learned that part in the bible...it's a really nice resource for understanding the changes that are made when you become a New Creation. Like Pauls experience of salvation, the only writer in the New Testament with whom that experience is shared.

Those believers who are not saved, will sin, those who have born again, do not sin. If you sin, it's not as though you lost your salvation, because you can not lose what you never had.
Many folks believe as you do, that being there is only one type of Christian, a saved Christian. The Parable of the Ten Virgins says different. Notice...they all had lamps!! And they all went out to meet him!!
If you are honest with yourself, you must admit, this parable shows Two types of Christians.

“At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. 6 “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’ 7 “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’ 9 “‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’ 10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut. 11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’ 12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’ 13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.
(Matthew 25:1-13)


By the way...the lamps represent the Holy Spirit!!

 

[FreeGrace2]

While not all Christians believe that good works are necessary for salvation, I honestly believe that all Christians, 100%, believe that good works are important. This is the way we show our love for our brothers and sisters in need.

So, there shouldn't really be any debate about the importance of good works.

Unfortunately, trying to include works into the means of salvation is very anti-biblical, and therefore the debate.

To claim that one's works are required is basically saying that Christ's work was not enough. That is blasphemy.

 

[FreeGrace2]

But...would God have saved him if he hadn't built the Ark?

These "what if's...." aren't the issue.

The "what IS" is the issue. Let's stay focused on what the Bible does say. Not would it could have said.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
John very clearly said that those who claim to be "without sin are self deceived". v.8

No, Everlasting Grace isn't rejecting what John wrote. You aren't understanding what he wrote.

Here is the verse: No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
Red words refer to the NEW CREATURE, the born again, regenerated human spirit, which CANNOT sin..

So you are saying...

What I posted was very clear, as are the verses I cited. No need to "translate".

You were a sinner before you were saved, and you are a sinner after you are saved.

It appears that you really don't understand or maybe accept what the Bible says then.

If you were a sinner before you were saved, and a sinner after you are saved, please explain how that make you a new creation.

When a peson believes, they become a new creature/creation, per 2 Cor 5:17. What does that mean? It means they have been born AGAIN or RE-generated, or made alive (spiritually). That's what makes a new creature.

I explained 1 John 3:9 to you. Did you understand any of it or not?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Well there are a few folks in here which have Grace in their names and I am probably lumping you in with all of them. So...my mistake and apology for that. I will need to keep a file or something to keep track.
And the other thing...I was referring to a time when I was in my 20-30's and I thought I was saved...so I did actually think I understood. A misunderstanding is better term for it....But anyway....Back to John.

You believe, John is saying, ....I am deceived.
Have you ever considered that maybe, just maybe....John is referring to two types of Christian followers?

No. He is just stating a fact.

IF WE (please notice the word we here. John includes himself. He is not talking about another group seperate from himself. He is talking about we asd a group of believers)

John clearly says in (1 John 3:9), those who are Born again can not sin. But for some reason, you reject this teaching,....and defer me to where he talks about folks who do sin.

He does not say that. Your reading an English translation. It literally in the greek says doies not keep on sinning or habitually sin, or live a life of sin..

If you look at scripture. A non believer lives a life of sin, It is ALL they can do. Because they do not have the capability to love so even when they do what we would perceive as a righteous deed. It is in sin, because it is not based on agape love.

A child of God can not do this.

1. They were made new creatures
2. They are chastened by God (again another flaw in your thinking, if we do not sin, we do not need chastened for sin)
3. Sin has a bad taste in us (inless we become hardened because we deny something we are doing is sin, or do not yet even know it is sin due to lack of study)
4. We have God in us..

it does not say. we never commit personal sin

Let me ask you this...In (John 8: 34-35), Do you see any difference between those who sin, and those Jesus calls Sons? Tell me...honestly....what do you see as the difference Between them?

(John 8:34-35) Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever.

Yeah I do. who is a slave to sin? A non believer as I explained above.

sin no longer has power over me, I am not enslaved to it anymore. it does not mean I am not able to do it.. I can always chose self will and not gods will.. My free will was not removed

let me ask you AGAIN

why did John say we can confess our sin to God if we can't commit personal sin

why did James tall us to confess our sins to one another if again, we can't commit personal sin?