Pre-Destination, God's Foreknowledge and Choice

[Polar]

I really do wish to discuss how we view the topics outlined in the title. It seems that most threads here that are started with intent to discuss these themes, are done so with a view to showing preference for a Calvinistic/Reformed approach which makes it difficult to express another view.

I am not Calvinist and I am not Armenian either. For the sake of understanding what either of those are about, here is a simple explanation:


Calvinism centers around the supreme sovereignty of God, predestination, the total depravity of man, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and the perseverance of saints.

Arminianism on the other hand emphasizes conditional election based on God’s foreknowledge, man’s free will to cooperate with God in salvation, Christ’s universal atonement, resistible grace, and salvation that can potentially be lost. source

Since I say I am neither, the question then is what do I believe? My best answer would be somewhere in between I guess, although I was once persuaded to be Calvinistic by the church I grew up in. I don't think either belief is salvic, that is neither depends on whether or not you are saved, but a person will definitely view things according to what they accept as doctrine. That, just might impact your entire life!

I'm not a moderator and I don't intend to moderate the comments of anyone responding. BUT that does not cover twisting of what is said or ignoring what is said. In other words, let's all adult here and be fair in our responses and accurate.

 

[Iconoclast]

I really do wish to discuss how we view the topics outlined in the title. It seems that most threads here that are started with intent to discuss these themes, are done so with a view to showing preference for a Calvinistic/Reformed approach which makes it difficult to express another view.

I am not Calvinist and I am not Armenian either. For the sake of understanding what either of those are about, here is a simple explanation:


Calvinism centers around the supreme sovereignty of God, predestination, the total depravity of man, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and the perseverance of saints.

Arminianism on the other hand emphasizes conditional election based on God’s foreknowledge, man’s free will to cooperate with God in salvation, Christ’s universal atonement, resistible grace, and salvation that can potentially be lost. source

Since I say I am neither, the question then is what do I believe? My best answer would be somewhere in between I guess, although I was once persuaded to be Calvinistic by the church I grew up in. I don't think either belief is salvic, that is neither depends on whether or not you are saved, but a person will definitely view things according to what they accept as doctrine. That, just might impact your entire life!

I'm not a moderator and I don't intend to moderate the comments of anyone responding. BUT that does not cover twisting of what is said or ignoring what is said. In other words, let's all adult here and be fair in our responses and accurate.

You are using a wrong view of the biblical teaching of Foreknowledge to start with.....it makes this D.O.A.

 

[Polar]

You are using a wrong view of the biblical teaching of Foreknowledge to start with.....it makes this D.O.A.

What view is that? Since you are a Calvinist, geez louise what else would you say. Since this thread was buried and ignored, you had to look my posts up to find it and you did that because of the way I responded to you in another active thread wherein I made it plain I don't agree with Calvinism.

So transparent

I'm not going to take someone trying to force Calvinism when the thread indicates a DISCUSSION. You are not offering discussion. Your single sentence response offers a nothing but your overbearing opinion.

 

[Iconoclast]

What view is that? Since you are a Calvinist, geez louise what else would you say. Since this thread was buried and ignored, you had to look my posts up to find it and you did that because of the way I responded to you in another active thread wherein I made it plain I don't agree with Calvinism.

So transparent

I'm not going to take someone trying to force Calvinism when the thread indicates a DISCUSSION. You are not offering discussion. Your single sentence response offers a nothing but your overbearing opinion.

You earlier suggested you had much to say....Iam looking up some of the threads now as I said I would.
Truth delights to be investigated. I am starting to list false ideas posted so discussion can happen.
Biblical foreknowledge is used of persons, not events as if someone looks forward in a time tunnel.

 

[Polar]

You earlier suggested you had much to say....Iam looking up some of the threads now as I said I would.
Truth delights to be investigated. I am starting to list false ideas posted so discussion can happen.
Biblical foreknowledge is used of persons, not events as if someone looks forward in a time tunnel.

Discussion?

I never said I had much to say. I said that plenty had already been discussed about Calvinism in threads in the past.

You have fun then

 

[Iconoclast]

Discussion?

Discussion yes...If a JW shows up denying the trinity, you ask why he has come to that conclusion correct? Discussion takes place unless he is a closed minded troll.

 

[Polar]

Discussion yes...If a JW shows up denying the trinity, you ask why he has come to that conclusion correct? Discussion takes place unless he is a closed minded troll.

I have no idea what you are on about now with those comments and I think the time has come to bid you adieu...aka ignore

 

[Iconoclast]

I have no idea what you are on about now with those comments and I think the time has come to bid you adieu...aka ignore

It is obvious you do not. Stick to your bird bath...enjoy that instead

 

[p_rehbein]

Since I say I am neither, the question then is what do I believe? My best answer would be somewhere in between I guess, although I was once persuaded to be Calvinistic by the church I grew up in. I don't think either belief is salvic, that is neither depends on whether or not you are saved, but a person will definitely view things according to what they accept as doctrine. That, just might impact your entire life!

Not sure why you believe one need not be "saved" to be a part of Gods "elect?"

Pretty sure salvation is required to become an "heir to the promise."

 

[Polar]

Not sure why you believe one need not be "saved" to be a part of Gods "elect?"

Pretty sure salvation is required to become an "heir to the promise."

What on earth are you talking about? I have NEVER, will NEVER, and do NOT think or believe any sort of whatever it is you think I said.

A PERSON MUST ACCEPT JESUS AND BE A BELIEVER AND WE DO THAT BY FAITH.

How on God's green earth do you come up with the idea I think people do not need to be saved ? This must be a reflection of your reading and comprehension skills.

To quote Charlie Brown 'GOOD GRIEF!!!!!!!'

 

[JohnRH]

I really do wish to discuss how we view the topics outlined in the title. It seems that most threads here that are started with intent to discuss these themes, are done so with a view to showing preference for a Calvinistic/Reformed approach which makes it difficult to express another view.

I am not Calvinist and I am not Armenian either. For the sake of understanding what either of those are about, here is a simple explanation:


Calvinism centers around the supreme sovereignty of God, predestination, the total depravity of man, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and the perseverance of saints.

Arminianism on the other hand emphasizes conditional election based on God’s foreknowledge, man’s free will to cooperate with God in salvation, Christ’s universal atonement, resistible grace, and salvation that can potentially be lost. source

Since I say I am neither, the question then is what do I believe? My best answer would be somewhere in between I guess, although I was once persuaded to be Calvinistic by the church I grew up in. I don't think either belief is salvic, that is neither depends on whether or not you are saved, but a person will definitely view things according to what they accept as doctrine. That, just might impact your entire life!

I'm not a moderator and I don't intend to moderate the comments of anyone responding. BUT that does not cover twisting of what is said or ignoring what is said. In other words, let's all adult here and be fair in our responses and accurate.

Unregenerate man is able to place their faith in Jesus as their Savior upon the hearing of the gospel and the conviction of the Holy Spirit.
God doesn't unconditionally elect any individual to become saved.
Christ died for everyone.
God's grace is resistible.
Once you're saved, you can't loose your salvation.

 

[Live4Him3]

Hey, Polar.

I shared my thoughts on this topic my first time through here as "Live4Him" in a three-part post.

If you're interested in reading it, then you can find it here:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/scriptural-authority.197908/#post-4510024

 

[Nehemiah6]

Calvinism centers around the supreme sovereignty of God, predestination, the total depravity of man, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and the perseverance of saints.

Calvinism/Reformed Theology is essentially "another gospel". It is a total distortion of the biblical Gospel of the Grace of God.

The Bible is crystal clear that God has offered salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ to "whosoever" will repent and believe on Him. This includes all of humanity, since Christ died for the sins of the whole world.

Those who are believers are then predestined or elected to be perfected and glorified in Christ -- "conformed to the image of God's Son". At the same time those who are saved and are eternally secure in Christ are commanded to live righteously, in obedience to God and Christ. This means walking in the Spirit, and mortifying the flesh.

God does not regenerate anyone before they believe. Yet that is the bizarre doctrine of the Calvinists. Sinners are regenerated by the power of the Holy Spirit, and the gift of the Holy Spirit is given to those who repent and are converted. Also, no one is regenerated through water baptism (as taught by the RCC and some others). Only those who receive the Holy Spirit and are regenerated are baptized. See Acts 10.

 

[oyster67]

Calvinism centers around the supreme sovereignty of God, predestination, the total depravity of man, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and the perseverance of saints.

Arminianism on the other hand emphasizes conditional election based on God’s foreknowledge, man’s free will to cooperate with God in salvation, Christ’s universal atonement, resistible grace, and salvation that can potentially be lost.

I am glad that you drew the distinction and the extreme contrast.

I am curious about the meaning of Calvin's "limited atonement".

 

[Aaron56]

Calvin’s doctrine was a product of the Age of Reason mixed with scripture: like a child beating on a piano. He made a lot of noise but what he produced was discordant with the Spirit of God.

 

[wattie]

I really do wish to discuss how we view the topics outlined in the title. It seems that most threads here that are started with intent to discuss these themes, are done so with a view to showing preference for a Calvinistic/Reformed approach which makes it difficult to express another view.

I am not Calvinist and I am not Armenian either. For the sake of understanding what either of those are about, here is a simple explanation:


Calvinism centers around the supreme sovereignty of God, predestination, the total depravity of man, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and the perseverance of saints.

Arminianism on the other hand emphasizes conditional election based on God’s foreknowledge, man’s free will to cooperate with God in salvation, Christ’s universal atonement, resistible grace, and salvation that can potentially be lost. source

Since I say I am neither, the question then is what do I believe? My best answer would be somewhere in between I guess, although I was once persuaded to be Calvinistic by the church I grew up in. I don't think either belief is salvic, that is neither depends on whether or not you are saved, but a person will definitely view things according to what they accept as doctrine. That, just might impact your entire life!

I'm not a moderator and I don't intend to moderate the comments of anyone responding. BUT that does not cover twisting of what is said or ignoring what is said. In other words, let's all adult here and be fair in our responses and accurate.

My understanding of predestination is that when a believer receives Christ as their Saviour .. a place in heaven is pre set for the believer.

Not a predetermined set of people destined for heaven or hell.

Also.. the system of churches Jesus established is pre set for a believer to join.. and the church also has a pre set destination in end times as the bride.

Free will to receive Christ.. but not to reject and 'leave' God after salvation.

 

[oyster67]

Also.. the system of churches Jesus established is pre set for a believer to join.. and the church also has a pre set destination in end times as the bride.

The ship is eternally secure and predestined for Heaven, but there be fools who will jump overboard...

Hebrews Chapter 12

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

 

[p_rehbein]

Free will to receive Christ.. but not to reject and 'leave' God after salvation.

Jesus pretty much blew this idea out of the water when He spoke of the great falling away........ It is true that NO POWER can take us from the hand of God, but we can turn our backs on God, even after having come to salvation.

That is why Once Saved Always Saved is flawed theology.

The correct statement should read Once Sanctified Always Sanctified. That being because a sanctified believer is a mature believer who has grown strong in his faith/belief in Jesus/God and has endured untold hardships/temptations and overcome them to remain faithfu to God. His faith being so strong, he could not imagine any situation causing him to falter in his faith and turn away from God. Does not mean he could'nt, it means he never would. He still has free will.

SALVATION DOES NOT NEGATE FREE WILL!

Those that believe it does are simply practicing/teacing "Calvin-lite" Theology..........

 

[JohnRH]

SALVATION DOES NOT NEGATE FREE WILL

The saved person still has an unaffected free will. The option of becoming unsaved is simply not submitted to it. He's predestined to conformity to the image of God's Son.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I am curious about the meaning of Calvin's "limited atonement".

It means that Christ died only for the so-called "elect" not for the whole world. And that plainly contradicts the Bible.