Did Jesus drink alcohol?

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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#81
There was more than that...it especially focused on grapes and grape products. Kinda odd in that respect....but Jesus used it as the locus of his vow.
But also the hair. You either cut it off and shaved your head at the start or not. (Elisha, kids and bears) and again at the end. But not during. Which is what got Sampson in trouble.
That's why I said "one of the stipulations."

You could not even eat raisins. But we are not talking about raisins ;):giggle:

Numbers 6:1-21 NIV

The Lord said to Moses, “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man or woman wants to make a special vow, a vow of dedication to the Lord as a Nazirite, they must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or other fermented drink. They must not drink grape juice or eat grapes or raisins. As long as they remain under their Nazirite vow, they must not eat anything that comes from the grapevine, not even the seeds or skins.

“‘During the entire period of their Nazirite vow, no razor may be used on their head. They must be holy until the period of their dedication to the Lord is over; they must let their hair grow long.

“‘Throughout the period of their dedication to the Lord, the Nazirite must not go near a dead body. Even if their own father or mother or brother or sister dies, they must not make themselves ceremonially unclean on account of them, because the symbol of their dedication to God is on their head. Throughout the period of their dedication, they are consecrated to the Lord.

“‘If someone dies suddenly in the Nazirite’s presence, thus defiling the hair that symbolizes their dedication, they must shave their head on the seventh day—the day of their cleansing. Then on the eighth day they must bring two doves or two young pigeons to the priest at the entrance to the tent of meeting. The priest is to offer one as a sin offering[a] and the other as a burnt offering to make atonement for the Nazirite because they sinned by being in the presence of the dead body. That same day they are to consecrate their head again. They must rededicate themselves to the Lord for the same period of dedication and must bring a year-old male lamb as a guilt offering. The previous days do not count, because they became defiled during their period of dedication.

“‘Now this is the law of the Nazirite when the period of their dedication is over. They are to be brought to the entrance to the tent of meeting. There they are to present their offerings to the Lord: a year-old male lamb without defect for a burnt offering, a year-old ewe lamb without defect for a sin offering, a ram without defect for a fellowship offering, together with their grain offerings and drink offerings, and a basket of bread made with the finest flour and without yeast—thick loaves with olive oil mixed in, and thin loaves brushed with olive oil.

“‘The priest is to present all these before the Lord and make the sin offering and the burnt offering. He is to present the basket of unleavened bread and is to sacrifice the ram as a fellowship offering to the Lord, together with its grain offering and drink offering.
“‘Then at the entrance to the tent of meeting, the Nazirite must shave off the hair that symbolizes their dedication. They are to take the hair and put it in the fire that is under the sacrifice of the fellowship offering.


“‘After the Nazirite has shaved off the hair that symbolizes their dedication, the priest is to place in their hands a boiled shoulder of the ram, and one thick loaf and one thin loaf from the basket, both made without yeast. The priest shall then wave these before the Lord as a wave offering; they are holy and belong to the priest, together with the breast that was waved and the thigh that was presented. After that, the Nazirite may drink wine.

“‘This is the law of the Nazirite who vows offerings to the Lord in accordance with their dedication, in addition to whatever else they can afford. They must fulfill the vows they have made, according to the law of the Nazirite.’”
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
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#82
Where is this in Scripture?
It isn't....but it is known anthropology from other writings during that time period both before and after. It was part and parcel and integral for their educational system. Paul mentioned his rabbi...for a reason of gravitas that he threw away.

When you are a disciple your whole job is to follow your rabbi so closely that the dust from his sandals covers you.

There's more to this whole thing of discipleship....but basically Jesus did not do things normally. Jesus asked his disciples instead of the disciples asking Jesus. Way way upside down thing there. And Jesus did not choose from the best students with the best reputations out of the bethmidrash. Didn't even go near those places. Again rather odd stuff. Not normal behavior for any rabbi.
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
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#83
That's why I said "one of the stipulations."

You could not even eat raisins. But we are not talking about raisins ;):giggle:

Numbers 6:1-21 NIV

The Lord said to Moses, “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man or woman wants to make a special vow, a vow of dedication to the Lord as a Nazirite, they must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or other fermented drink. They must not drink grape juice or eat grapes or raisins. As long as they remain under their Nazirite vow, they must not eat anything that comes from the grapevine, not even the seeds or skins.

“‘During the entire period of their Nazirite vow, no razor may be used on their head. They must be holy until the period of their dedication to the Lord is over; they must let their hair grow long.

“‘Throughout the period of their dedication to the Lord, the Nazirite must not go near a dead body. Even if their own father or mother or brother or sister dies, they must not make themselves ceremonially unclean on account of them, because the symbol of their dedication to God is on their head. Throughout the period of their dedication, they are consecrated to the Lord.

“‘If someone dies suddenly in the Nazirite’s presence, thus defiling the hair that symbolizes their dedication, they must shave their head on the seventh day—the day of their cleansing. Then on the eighth day they must bring two doves or two young pigeons to the priest at the entrance to the tent of meeting. The priest is to offer one as a sin offering[a] and the other as a burnt offering to make atonement for the Nazirite because they sinned by being in the presence of the dead body. That same day they are to consecrate their head again. They must rededicate themselves to the Lord for the same period of dedication and must bring a year-old male lamb as a guilt offering. The previous days do not count, because they became defiled during their period of dedication.

“‘Now this is the law of the Nazirite when the period of their dedication is over. They are to be brought to the entrance to the tent of meeting. There they are to present their offerings to the Lord: a year-old male lamb without defect for a burnt offering, a year-old ewe lamb without defect for a sin offering, a ram without defect for a fellowship offering, together with their grain offerings and drink offerings, and a basket of bread made with the finest flour and without yeast—thick loaves with olive oil mixed in, and thin loaves brushed with olive oil.

“‘The priest is to present all these before the Lord and make the sin offering and the burnt offering. He is to present the basket of unleavened bread and is to sacrifice the ram as a fellowship offering to the Lord, together with its grain offering and drink offering.
“‘Then at the entrance to the tent of meeting, the Nazirite must shave off the hair that symbolizes their dedication. They are to take the hair and put it in the fire that is under the sacrifice of the fellowship offering.


“‘After the Nazirite has shaved off the hair that symbolizes their dedication, the priest is to place in their hands a boiled shoulder of the ram, and one thick loaf and one thin loaf from the basket, both made without yeast. The priest shall then wave these before the Lord as a wave offering; they are holy and belong to the priest, together with the breast that was waved and the thigh that was presented. After that, the Nazirite may drink wine.

“‘This is the law of the Nazirite who vows offerings to the Lord in accordance with their dedication, in addition to whatever else they can afford. They must fulfill the vows they have made, according to the law of the Nazirite.’”
The hair was just not to be cut during the period of the vow....it didn't have to be cut before or after but if it did there were specific rules about it.
 

Amanuensis

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2021
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#84
From what I have learned, they had "new wine," that being wine not yet fermited, and they had fermited wine. I would expect Jesus drank both at one time or another.

That being said, there is a huge difference between wine and "alcohol." Alcohol brings to mind strong drink such as whiskey or some such. I do not believe Jesus ever drank such as these, and there is no evidence that I have found that He did.

Do not know this Pastor Anderson person, so can not comment on the truth of his teachings..
distilling liquor was not yet invented.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,146
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#85
What has become of the modern church when people excuse their drinking of over 25% alcohol, 2-3 glasses at a meal?
Back then, decent water was scarce. They mixed wine in the water to kill germs.
Point is, we no longer have such problems, therefore we have no such excuses.

Do you see any difference in the we two situations ?

“Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭5:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And this situation ?

“And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬


there’s a difference in drinking to get drunk and having a glass of wine with dinner ( I have in my years had one glass of wine btw so I’m not making excuses so I can drink lol just pointing out the difference in being and getting drunk which impacts your actions and words

and having glass of wine if someone wishes.

drunkenness is one thing wine can be a bad thing like this

“And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: and he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭9:20-21‬ ‭

he got drunk and passed out and was uncovered and this led to his son bringing great shame upon him because he got drunk it gave opportunity for this to happen it didn’t happen because he had a glass of wine but because he got drunk and passed out

the wine isn’t bad it’s the intent and actions of the person the grapes and genre ration of wine is often good for many stomache issues it has nothing to do with watering it down it contains things good for health

Self control , moderation is part of the gospel. Wine is a biblical drink many people including Christians drank cups of wine in scripture the only time it’s condemned is when a person gets drunk
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,171
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#86
The hair was just not to be cut during the period of the vow....it didn't have to be cut before or after but if it did there were specific rules about it.
From Numbers 6:18 “‘Then at the entrance to the tent of meeting,
the Nazirite must shave off the hair that symbolizes their dedication."


That is following their time of dedication...

Numbers 6:1-21 gives the entirety of what is required :)
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
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#87
From Numbers 6:18 “‘Then at the entrance to the tent of meeting,
the Nazirite must shave off the hair that symbolizes their dedication."


That is following their time of dedication...

Numbers 6:1-21 gives the entirety of what is required :)
Well the beard was pulled out. That qualifies.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,171
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#89
Well the beard was pulled out. That qualifies.
What exactly are you, um, arguing in favor of?

Jesus being a Nazarite at the time of His crucifixion?

He would have been made unclean by the presence of the thieves on the crosses either side of him when they died.
 

Amanuensis

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2021
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#90
Do a Google search on Acetaldehyde. Even one glass of wine will result in this toxic byproduct upon the metabolism of the alcohol. It is a very nasty toxin that damages cells in all sorts of organs not just the liver. It is instrumental in causing the pancreas to start digesting itself when mixed with enzymes in the pancreas.

Even one glass of modern store bought wine is toxic because of Acetaldehyde. And this ALWAYS occurs EVERYTIME in EVERYONE.

So is a little bit of organ damage ok?

So it really doesn't matter if people drank diluted wine if they could get it during the first century. Today you have pure water.

They used to do some odd things for cleaning up at the latrine but I doubt anyone wants to do that and say "that's how the disciples did it." We have progressed.

Normally I just answer the question with "Is your conscience bothering you? Then don't don it." Or, let them know about Acetaldehyde which will often be sufficient for health conscience people to stop warring with themselves over whether they are being legalistic in considering total abstinence.

The joy of the Lord is usually missing among sipping saints. And there is a reason for that. A constant warring with the conscience and feeling like one is sinning in the light is a miserable life to live.

Some people are so afraid of legalism that they think there is some virtue in sinning a little. This is crazy thinking. If you are not sure about something then don't don it. That is not legalism that is FAITH and a good conscience.

Many of the pastors who were exposed for a moral failure, there was alcohol involved. Being a teetotaler would have saved them from those scandals.

It's not legalism, it's wise. Lead us not into temptation is our prayer, let us live what we pray. One glass leads to two for too many.

Show me a sipping preacher and I will show you a preacher who has no power with God or men. He is just a talker of religious things and going through the motions. Something is off. Those in tune with the Spirit who live no compromise lives will know it. There is no power. Divorce and scandal is crouching at the door.
 
Jun 28, 2022
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#91
also remember, the people at the wedding said you saved the best wine for last. now, would anyone be saying that if it was grape juice? wow man. you really gave us the best grape juice for last.
Maybe reviewing Matthew 9 would be helpful?
 

awelight

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Aug 10, 2020
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#92
Part of the reason that prompted this question is that Pastor Steven Anderson said that "oene" in the NT refers to non-alcoholic fruit juice.
I'd be interested in reading others' opinions.
Yes Jesus drank real wine, not grape juice. This errant teaching about grape juice has been around a long time.

- Jesus not only drank real wine - He made it.
- Paul commands Timothy to drink a little wine for his stomach ailments. Surly one doesn't believe that grape juice would work in this case?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,171
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#93
Yes Jesus drank real wine, not grape juice. This errant teaching about grape juice has been around a long time.

- Jesus not only drank real wine - He made it.
- Paul commands Timothy to drink a little wine for his stomach ailments. Surly one doesn't believe that grape juice would work in this case?
There are other Scriptures promoting/recommending the consumption of wine under certain circumstances.

But those who are closed minded do not want facts when their mind/s is/are already made up.

Psalm 104:14-15 “You make grass grow for cattle and make vegetables for humans to use in order to get food from the
ground. You make wine to cheer human hearts, olive oil to make faces shine, and bread to strengthen human hearts.”
 
Jun 28, 2022
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#94
also remember, the people at the wedding said you saved the best wine for last. now, would anyone be saying that if it was grape juice? wow man. you really gave us the best grape juice for last.
Maybe there is another way to look at this story.

Jesus is the living water.
Water stored in stone jars are not of a living source any longer. Remember those occasions when God/Jesus hardened hearts. (like stone?)

Jesus turned water into wine in those stone jars. Rememember the last supper? Of the wine Jesus said, this is my blood....

Maybe all of this was leading to the message of the crucifixion. Why would Jesus say to his mother, his time has not yet come, when she was telling him the wedding ran out of wine if it was only about wine?

Plus,the guests saying of the new wine he'd created that it was saved as the best for last seems to have a deeper meaning. Again, wine,blood, crucifixion. The last act, even miracle, of Jesus.
 

Amanuensis

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2021
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#95
Alexander the Great died of what?

Fortified wines could ferment into liquor.
Yes Jesus drank real wine, not grape juice. This errant teaching about grape juice has been around a long time.

- Jesus not only drank real wine - He made it.
- Paul commands Timothy to drink a little wine for his stomach ailments. Surly one doesn't believe that grape juice would work in this case?
We don't know what Timothy had or how a glass of wine would help. Maybe because the water was bad like what happens in Mexico tourists places. Better to drink a little wine in that situation than to go through the stomach and intestine issues that such water will cause.

Now today we have pure water. Also we can diagnose stomach problems and I gaurantee you drinking wine is not going to be the best solution.

Lets not use the bible as an excuse to get an alcohol buzz which is the motive behind most people jonesing for a glass of wine in the name of Jesus.
 

awelight

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Aug 10, 2020
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#96
We don't know what Timothy had or how a glass of wine would help. Maybe because the water was bad like what happens in Mexico tourists places. Better to drink a little wine in that situation than to go through the stomach and intestine issues that such water will cause.

Now today we have pure water. Also we can diagnose stomach problems and I gaurantee you drinking wine is not going to be the best solution.

Lets not use the bible as an excuse to get an alcohol buzz which is the motive behind most people jonesing for a glass of wine in the name of Jesus.
Your reasoning is all subjective in your post. I for one try in everyway to stay away from subjective or humanistic view points.

Scripture does not say what was wrong with Timothy and we should not try to figure it out by our own reasoning. Just except it as given. Human reason generally leads to error. The question was - did Christ consume alcoholic wine? The Scripture says yes.

Any thing consumed in moderation - like wine - is not sin and no one is trying to get a buzz on. (Hopefully). If you don't like wine then fine but don't judge others. Red wines are well known for aiding digestion.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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#98
But Jesus didn't wash his hands at all.
So now the question is whether or not this pastor is lying to his congregation on purpose or if he simply never did 2 minutes of simple Bible study?
Guy is wresting scripture to fit his own personal narrative.
 
Jun 28, 2022
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Your reasoning is all subjective in your post. I for one try in everyway to stay away from subjective or humanistic view points.

Scripture does not say what was wrong with Timothy and we should not try to figure it out by our own reasoning. Just except it as given. Human reason generally leads to error. The question was - did Christ consume alcoholic wine? The Scripture says yes.

Any thing consumed in moderation - like wine - is not sin and no one is trying to get a buzz on. (Hopefully). If you don't like wine then fine but don't judge others. Red wines are well known for aiding digestion.
Suffice to say, if it wasn't fortified it wasn't called wine.

Also, I think we have to stay away from the subjective humanist implication that says , consuming alcohol leads to drunkenness.

This is not the case in a culture as strict as early Jews were in honoring God's word and laws.

While consuming wine was better and often more probable than that of water due to scarcity and hygiene.