saved not by faith in the first place

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J

Joshua175

Guest
#21
#21
Hearer said:
we have to differntiate between regenaration and sanctification. Sanctification follows faith. But to have faith we have to first be given ears to hear and hearts to receive and accept.
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Believing in God is a choice that we make, which is why there are going to be people who remain in the judgment of God. Otherwise it's God's fault but no God is good it's not his fault that people are under judgment. Evil men are evil because of their own choices. God gave us the ability to make the choice to accept his son.
 
H

Hearer

Guest
#22
#22
Joshua175 said:
Believing in God is a choice that we make, which is why there are going to be people who remain in the judgment of God. Otherwise it's God's fault but no God is good it's not his fault that people are under judgment. Evil men are evil because of their own choices. God gave us the ability to make the choice to accept his son.
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every time this point of view will be raised by those who beieve in their own purity. The truth is that the pharisees believd that they had access to God and were children of God. They would too have argued that they were without fault. Those who are outside may be faithless but that is because they are unregenerate. This does not excuse them. God's general revealtion is for everyone to hear and receive so they have no excuse.
 
J

Joshua175

Guest
#23
#23
Ramon said:
Joshua. Hearer is speaking from another level. Both of you are right in a way. But his understanding is somewhere a bit higher.

This difference in opinion is not wrong. But one sees something more than the other, and it should be for edification.

The understanding is that all things are in the hands of God, whether one repents or one is hardened further. It is like how it was described that some vessels are fitted to destruction, yet others to the glory of God (some for mercy). This is a harder thing to grasp concerning God, because it brings up questions that puzzle us. But Paul spoke about it. I will try and find the passages where he talked about it.

May Jesus bless you.
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Sometimes we look into things too much and we think about things too much. The bible says "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

God can also give people responsibility..He gave us the responsibility to accept his son.
 
R

Ramon

Guest
#24
#24
Joshua175 said:
Believing in God is a choice that we make, which is why there are going to be people who remain in the judgment of God. Otherwise it's God's fault but no God is good it's not his fault that people are under judgment. Evil men are evil because of their own choices. God gave us the ability to make the choice to accept his son.
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:):) I think this disagreement is really not a disagreement. Again he is looking at the sovereignty of God. He is not contradicting the truth, and neither are you. You both could actually edify each other.

May Jesus bless you.
 
H

Hearer

Guest
#25
#25
Joshua175 said:
Believing in God is a choice that we make, which is why there are going to be people who remain in the judgment of God. Otherwise it's God's fault but no God is good it's not his fault that people are under judgment. Evil men are evil because of their own choices. God gave us the ability to make the choice to accept his son.
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I wish I could underline this twice. Because that is what I have been saying and that is regeneration. Faith follows God giving us the ability.
 
J

Joshua175

Guest
#26
#26
Hearer said:
I wish I could underline this twice. Because that is what I have been saying and that is regeneration. Faith follows God giving us the ability.
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But he gives us all that ability. Even the wicked have that ability, it's whether or not they choose to accept him.
 
H

Hearer

Guest
#27
#27
Joshua175 said:
But he gives us all that ability. Even the wicked have that ability, it's whether or not they choose to accept him.
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jesus would not have taught that let those that have ears hear. And that many are stiff necked and cannot hear which is why he talks in parables. Some will be ever hearing and never hear. There are therefore those who have ears and can hear. They are those chosen by God and given new hearts and are circumcised in their heart.
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#28
#28
Hearer said:
Faith follows regeneration. First we have to be born again; then we receive faith as a gift. Otherwise we believe in works and our own flesh.
We are not regenerayed after developing faith but before.
Regeneration is the sovereign work pf God the Holy Spirit. We need only search for God's face, seeking and knocking and wanting a better life. Then we will receive the power to change and to have faith.
Abraham had God come to him to send him to a new country. Jacob saw Godon the staiway and was regenerated. The prophets predicted under the Spirit that we would all be given hearts of flesh having our stony hearts removed. Saul was regenerated and became Paul. Peter was faithless denying the Lord but was made the first apostle through regeneration. All received the gifts of God. The church had scattered at the crucifiixion but were regenerate at Pentecost receiving power from on high and became an unstoppable force filled with faith.

The best we can do is:

seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened, ask and ye shall receive; before your faith is full and flowing enough to make you fruitful. First you have to born again, regenerated.
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Dear Hearer,
"Without faith it is impossible to please God."
A person is born again when they believe, not before it.
How can an unbeliever be born again?
God's grace converts people. When they believe.
He doesn't force them to believe.
He gives all people free will.
If they use free will properly, they will believe in God.
John 3:16 says whosoever believeth.
It doesn't say we that have to be born again to believe.
We have to believe to be born again.
Without faith, there is no regeneration.
In Erie Scott R. Harrington

 
R

Ramon

Guest
#29
#29
Joshua175 said:
But he gives us all that ability. Even the wicked have that ability, it's whether or not they choose to accept him.
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May Jesus bless you Joshua. Again you both are right. You should both be saying amen. Anyhow.

May Jesus bless you both.
 
H

Hearer

Guest
#30
#30
Scotth1960 said:
Dear Hearer,
"Without faith it is impossible to please God."
A person is born again when they believe, not before it.
How can an unbeliever be born again?
God's grace converts people. When they believe.
He doesn't force them to believe.
He gives all people free will.
If they use free will properly, they will believe in God.
John 3:16 says whosoever believeth.
It doesn't say we that have to be born again to believe.
We have to believe to be born again.
Without faith, there is no regeneration.
In Erie Scott R. Harrington
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what was Nicodemus told to teach his people? So that they hear and can be saved?
 
H

Hearer

Guest
#31
#31
in fact even those who believe must first be regenerated before they are saved otherwise their faith and works is empty. Then you have great knowledge and great gifts and great riches but still have not entered the KIngdom and cannot lead others into it either.
 
J

Joshua175

Guest
#32
#32
Hearer said:
in fact even those who believe must first be regenerated before they are saved otherwise their faith and works is empty. Then you have great knowledge and great gifts and great riches but still have not entered the KIngdom and cannot lead others into it either.
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"But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."
 
R

Ramon

Guest
#33
#33
Well, I tried, but if you two will persist. Oh well.
 
H

Hearer

Guest
#34
#34
Joshua175 said:
"But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."
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Joshua, Listen to me. The spirit is the spirit of Jesus. Without him nothing was made and the spirit is the creator. So if Jesus annoints you in rebirth he will be the one who knows you.

If you choose to ppersist in the fiction that you know Jesus first before he knew and saved you then you are not known by Jesus and whatever works you do however mighty will keep you separate from Jesus.

Even those who do mighty works of faith in Jesus name will not be saved by Jesus if he does not first regenerate them. He does it. You faith is powerrless to baptise you otherwise you are self-baptiser.

Who ever was able or had the right to baptize himself?? So your faith is dead unless:
1) Jesus through his spirit baptised you before you believed or
b) Jesus through his spirit by your fore ordained grace baptises you.

What is imporatnt is seeking not believing. Asking and knocking not having a faith. Faith is a gift and is given in different proportions to people it is not a given guarentee that you will be saved. It is agift throug the Spirit of Jesus before you believd so that you can hear or after you believd so that you can know Jesus. But either way it is Jesus who decides.
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#35
#35
Hearer said:
Joshua, Listen to me. The spirit is the spirit of Jesus. Without him nothing was made and the spirit is the creator. So if Jesus annoints you in rebirth he will be the one who knows you.

If you choose to ppersist in the fiction that you know Jesus first before he knew and saved you then you are not known by Jesus and whatever works you do however mighty will keep you separate from Jesus.

Even those who do mighty works of faith in Jesus name will not be saved by Jesus if he does not first regenerate them. He does it. You faith is powerrless to baptise you otherwise you are self-baptiser.

Who ever was able or had the right to baptize himself?? So your faith is dead unless:
1) Jesus through his spirit baptised you before you believed or
b) Jesus through his spirit by your fore ordained grace baptises you.

What is imporatnt is seeking not believing. Asking and knocking not having a faith. Faith is a gift and is given in different proportions to people it is not a given guarentee that you will be saved. It is agift throug the Spirit of Jesus before you believd so that you can hear or after you believd so that you can know Jesus. But either way it is Jesus who decides.
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Calvinism is not the gospel. It was soundly condemned by the Church in the Council of Jerusalem in 1672 AD. God is sovereign. Calvinism denies this by making His sovereignty the same as causality. Yet a holy God cannot cause sin. Yet Calvinism insists that God is the cause of everything that comes to pass. Sin comes to pass. Therefore, God must be the author (cause) of sin. This is false. God nowhere in the Bible commands any human being to disobey Him.

 
H

Hearer

Guest
#36
#36
Scotth1960 said:
Calvinism is not the gospel. It was soundly condemned by the Church in the Council of Jerusalem in 1672 AD. God is sovereign. Calvinism denies this by making His sovereignty the same as causality. Yet a holy God cannot cause sin. Yet Calvinism insists that God is the cause of everything that comes to pass. Sin comes to pass. Therefore, God must be the author (cause) of sin. This is false. God nowhere in the Bible commands any human being to disobey Him.
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sorry this is a non-sequitur. No one said this. Jesus causes good through his spirit. Those who are not regenerate have the gospel and should believe. They will not though becasue they have not been given to Jesus by the father. But this does not excuse them at all because they have the free-will to believe, to seek, to knock and to ask. No one who asks will be denied.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#37
#37
Joshua175 said:
I completely agree with you .eternally-gratefull Without faith we cannot please God. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
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Yes. I do not see that whoever believeth (and lives righteous lives, Eats my flesh and blood (eucharist) gets baptized. goes to church etc etc(sacraments) there is only one thing given. Faith in the work Christ did on the cross. and the promise he made because of his death.

Anything else is a gospel of works
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#38
#38
Hearer said:
whosoever believes believes because they are chosen and given ears to hear and hearts to receive.
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do I taste a hint of calvanism??

God gave us free will. It was this love gift which caused us to chose to rebell against him.

This same free which caused us to CHOSE to rebell must be used to cause us to CHOOSE to recieve.

If God removes free will at anytime, He is not a God of love, and Satans lie is truth.
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#39
#39
Hearer said:
Faith follows regeneration. First we have to be born again; then we receive faith as a gift. Otherwise we believe in works and our own flesh.
We are not regenerayed after developing faith but before.
Regeneration is the sovereign work pf God the Holy Spirit. We need only search for God's face, seeking and knocking and wanting a better life. Then we will receive the power to change and to have faith.
Abraham had God come to him to send him to a new country. Jacob saw Godon the staiway and was regenerated. The prophets predicted under the Spirit that we would all be given hearts of flesh having our stony hearts removed. Saul was regenerated and became Paul. Peter was faithless denying the Lord but was made the first apostle through regeneration. All received the gifts of God. The church had scattered at the crucifiixion but were regenerate at Pentecost receiving power from on high and became an unstoppable force filled with faith.

The best we can do is:
Click to expand...
Hearer said:


seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened, ask and ye shall receive; before your faith is full and flowing enough to make you fruitful. First you have to born again, regenerated.
Click to expand...
Dear Hearer, Here's a website I recommend to you.

"The Golden Rule" by David Bennett January 28, 2007

http:// www.freewill-predestination/golden.html

God save us. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 
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E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#40
#40
Hearer said:
we have to differntiate between regenaration and sanctification. Sanctification follows faith. But to have faith we have to first be given ears to hear and hearts to receive and accept.
Click to expand...
Scripture states the HS convicts. No man will have an excuse. If one is not given the ability to chose yes or no. Then men have an excuse. Or else God is no God. He is a deciever.
 
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