CHRIST THE CHOSEN ONE, THE ELECT OF THE FATHER

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
So, there's only 1 doctrine of truth? Could you boil it down to a sentence or few?

I have shown you many scriptures about Jesus doctrine (his teachings) which bears the truth, if you interpret them right.

Excuse me, but NONE of the verses EXPLAINED this "1 doctrine of truth" that you speak of. They were ABOUT what Jesus taught, but NONE actually SAID what Jesus taught. And it seems you can't either. So why even bring it up since you can't explain it?

You have rejected them due to your preconceived idea that the unregenerate person can understand the things of the Spirit.

It's been proven. I've read writers of magazines like Time and Newsweek which have "Religion" articles from time to time. And the writers explained the gospel exactly correct, yet it was obvious from what they wrote that they did not believe it.

So please don't tell me what unbelievers can't do. All you are doing is repeating calvinist talking points from a very FLAWED misunderstanding of 1 Cort 2:14.

Unbelievers cannot understand advanced doctrines, such as the indwelling and filling of the Holy Spirit, eternal rewards, divine discipline, etc.

John 1:17 - For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. This was what Jesus taught (his doctrine).

Huh? Where did Jesus teach this in Scripture? John wrote that and he wasn't quoting Jesus when he wrote it.

you will also refute this scripture with the same preconceived attitude as the others, but that seems to be your problem.

Uh, you're the one who thinks "the old law of works" will result in "eternal deliverance". So your claim demonstrates and PROVES that you have no understanding of how a person becomes saved and a child of God and will go to heaven.

You believe in what is called "works-salvation" and Jesus blasted the Pharisees for that view.

You have misinterpreted the scriptures to teach that mankind is not redeemed of their sins unless they accept, confess, choose, believe, repent, etc,

You have NO excuse for that comment. I SHOWED you Paul's answer to the jailer and you are flat out rejecting his answer.

This concept dishonours God and takes away his glory of your redemption by God's sovereign grace.

Calvinists think that "sovereign grace" means that God is a puppetmaster and pulls ALL the strings, and "the elect" are merely puppets simply move according to the strings that God pulls.

Of course, no Calvinist would admit to such wording, but that is exactly what it comes down to.

Man is free to accept or reject the offer of salvation. That gives man NO glory or honor for merely accepting a gift.

I asked you a question that you have not answered. IF you were drowning and a lifeguard in a boat came by and reached out his hand with a lifebouy to give you, and you took it and were SAVED from drowning, would you go around and brag about how you just SAVED YOURSELF because to took what was offered?

Please answer this. It directly relates to your very flawed view of belief. Belief is trusting in what Jesus did for you. And on that basis, God saves you. IN FACT, 1 Cor 1:21 SAYS SO. Why don't you read it and learn what the Bible teaches, because it sure isn't what you claim.

All of those "works" that you have credited for your redemption are actually good works that attribute to your deliverances as you sojourn here in this world as his redeemed child.[/QUOTE]

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The text spells it out clearly and yet you think eternal deliverance is by doing good works.

Do you think that I am discussing scripture with you, because I believe the same as you? You are the one that believes in eternal deliverance by works, not me.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
What do you mean by "spiritual God"? That isn't a biblical term,, so why do you use NON-biblical terms? Can you just use the words that the Bible uses?

John 4:24 - God is a Spirit, and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

OK, now, do you understand what Jesus was telling the woman? Please explain, if you know.

iow, what did Jesus mean by "worship Him in spirit and in truth"?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Lost sheep are UNSAVED AND UNREGENERATE people. They need to be saved.

You are so confused that now you are contradicting yourself.

The confusion is with YOU, who sides with the Pharisees of Jesus' day who thought just like you do. And Jesus BLASTED them for their error.

You previously told me that if they are sheep that they are already saved.

With discernment, one understands how "sheep" is used and meant in all the different passages.

In some Jesus was referring to unsaved Jews (lost sheep of Israel). In others, such as John 10, He differentiated between HIS sheep, and THE sheep. HIS sheep are believers and saved. See v.9 THE sheep refer to the entire human race, which is who He would die for.

As I told you before, all sheep believe that there is a Spirit that is God, but many of them do not understand what Jesus accomplished for them on the cross, which is total redemption of their sins, therefore they are the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and you, also, fit that description.

Let's just quit using these figures of speech and deal with reality, ok?

The human race is divided by believers and unbelievers. Saved and lost. Regenerate and unregenerate.

It's way more clear to use these words than "sheep" since the word is used in a variety of meanings, as a figure of speech.

 

[awelight]

Help me out here:

1) The Church represents the elect in Christ.
2) There is no redemption and rebirth without Christ.
3) Therefore a "redeemed and restored Israel distinct from the Church" is impossible.

Which part in this three part syllogism do you disagree with?

In looking over your posts, I have come to realize, you show little spiritual discernment.

Instead, you argue Scripture like a Greek Philosopher. Spouting theory, ethos and logic. This is the worlds wisdom, in which God calls foolishness. The Scriptures cannot be interpreted in this way. They can only be interpreted by spiritual discernment, in one being lead by the Holy Spirit. Scripture makes this clear:

1Cor 2:12 But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God.
1Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom is teaching, but which the Spirit teaches; combining spiritual things with spiritual words.
1Cor 2:14 Now the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The problem with Philosophy and Academic Disciplines is they are Subjective. They have not nor need not an Objective standard. Understanding the Truth of God must be compared to the Objective standard of God's Holy Word. Thus, the Truth, is God's Objective Truth, as revealed. Thus, it is NOT - God said it, I believe it, that settles it. It IS God said it, that settles it, whether I believe it or not.

Your post here, proves your "Intellectual smugness", when you say things like: "Which part in this three part syllogism do you disagree with?" Additionally, your three part syllogism is flawed because it is not rooted in the Objective Truth but in your own reasoning. To build a proper syllogism, you MUST start with the proper Objective starting point. If one has that wrong, then all else fails.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
The text spells it out clearly and yet you think eternal deliverance is by doing good works.

Do you think that I am discussing scripture with you, because I believe the same as you?

Of course you don't believe the same as me. And I'm showing you Scriptural truth in order to help you understand Scripture.

You are the one that believes in eternal deliverance by works, not me.

How in the world would ANYONE come to that conclusion? I quoted Paul's answer to you about HOW to be saved, and it had NOTHING to do with works.

You are the one who SAID that the "old law of works" resulted in "eternal deliverance".

Salvation, what you prefer to say is "eternal deliverance" is by faith in Jesus Christ. I REJECT salvation by works. Eph 2:8,9 says that as well.

 

[awelight]

i never once disputed the promise the LORD made to Abram concerning the physical seed of Abram and the land/Israel in the Middle East.
Which is the Place whereby Matthew 23:37 is fulfilled from the mouths of those Jews(of the flesh) whom the LORD spares by bringing them thru the Fire = Zechariah chapters 12 thru chapter 14
(i just gave you and everyone a GIFT here.)

Additionally, back on the subject of the Israel of God.................
Romans 11: 22-24 - "Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!"

Here is another overlooked Truth of this concluding passage from Romans ch11:
Which proves, again, that pre-trib rapture is a lie, is incongruous with scripture and unravels the errors that emerged pre-trib rapture.
See if you can SEE.

PEACE

Well, I am very familiar with Romans 11 but I don't see where you think this has something to do with the Rapture - one way or the other. Besides, I was not discussing the Rapture, I was discussing the Millennial Kingdom.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Nonsense. I understand it better than you do. You believe that God regenerates a person so they will believe. Go find such a verse.

We have been over this several times, but you fail to see the truth in it; Eph 2:1-5 - And ye hath he quickened, WHO WERE DEAD IN TRANSPASSES AND SINS: (this is the unregenerate). verse 5 - Even when we were DEAD (dead to the knowledge [not believing] of spiritual things) IN SINS, hath he quickened us together with Christ (by grace are ye saved)

If we have been quickened together with Christ, we are in Christ. This is how we get in Christ, to be quickened together with him.
Gal 5:22 - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, FAITH, meekness, temperance,: against such there is no law. Verse 23 - And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh.

Those that are IN CHRIST have the Holy Spirit, with its fruit of faith, and Eph 2:5 says we were quickened (being born again) with Christ, therefore we receive the Holy Spirit as part of being quickened, not before we are quickened.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You are the one who SAID that the "old law of works" resulted in "eternal deliverance".

Now you are misquoting what I have said. Point out what post I said such a thing. I did say that the born again persons good works results in being delivered as they sojourn here in this world.

I think that you must be toying with me, just for the sake of argument. Are your discussions with an open mind, or not?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

How in the world would ANYONE come to that conclusion? I quoted Paul's answer to you about HOW to be saved, and it had NOTHING to do with work

There you go again, not giving me the scripture, expecting me to go back and search through all of your posts.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Nonsense. I understand it better than you do. You believe that God regenerates a person so they will believe. Go find such a verse.

We have been over this several times, but you fail to see the truth in it

You don't have any verse that shows that regeneration precedes believing.

Eph 2:1-5 - And ye hath he quickened, WHO WERE DEAD IN TRANSPASSES AND SINS: (this is the unregenerate). verse 5 - Even when we were DEAD (dead to the knowledge [not believing] of spiritual things) IN SINS, hath he quickened us together with Christ (by grace are ye saved)

Sure, be sure to leave out v.8, which clarifies the issue.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

So, in v.5 Paul equates the phrase "quickened us together with Christ" with "by grace are ye saved". iow, they go together. You can't have one without the other.

So, since you disagree, what verse says differently?

Then v.8 proves that faith precedes both regeneration and salvation. You can read it any way you need to in order to defend your theology, but the words are plain and clear.

If we have been quickened together with Christ, we are in Christ.

I call it eternal salvation.

This is how we get in Christ, to be quickened together with him.

No, actually Paul dealt with that in Eph 1:13,14. "having believed" we are sealed in Him with the Spirit".

Gal 5:22 - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, FAITH, meekness, temperance,: against such there is no law. Verse 23 - And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh.

This isn't about salvation. And isn't relevant to Eph 2:5 and 8.

Those that are IN CHRIST have the Holy Spirit, with its fruit of faith, and Eph 2:5 says we were quickened (being born again) with Christ, therefore we receive the Holy Spirit as part of being quickened, not before we are quickened.

I already proved HOW one receives the Holy Spirit, which is the indwelling.

Gal 3-
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

Nothing about being born again. Everything about BELIEVING.

So, again, Eph 2:8 SAYS that regeneration and salvation are through faith (that means believing).

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
You are the one who SAID that the "old law of works" resulted in "eternal deliverance".

Now you are misquoting what I have said. Point out what post I said such a thing. I did say that the born again persons good works results in being delivered as they sojourn here in this world.

Yes, you keep saying that too. I went back 4 or 5 pages but could not find the quote. But several pages back I did make reference to it.

However, YOU claim that I believe in good works for "eternal deliverance", all based on your very faulty view of belief.

I think that you must be toying with me, just for the sake of argument. Are your discussions with an open mind, or not?

Of course I have an open mind. I look for verses that SAY what others SAY. And I have not yet found any verses in your posts that actually SAY what you SAY.

Do you have an open mind? I think it may be tightly closed, since you don't even bother refute my statements. Much less address the verses I quote and "explain" them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
How in the world would ANYONE come to that conclusion? I quoted Paul's answer to you about HOW to be saved, and it had NOTHING to do with work.

There you go again, not giving me the scripture, expecting me to go back and search through all of your posts.

Seriously? You aren't familiar with the jailer's question and Paul's answer????

Acts 16-
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

The jailer wasn't asking how to be delivered from the earthquake, if you want to go that way. How do I know he was specifically speaking of eternal salvation?

From the slave girl:
16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling.
17 She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.”
18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.

There should be no doubt that she was screaming all this in a mocking tone, the only reason Paul would be annoyed. She was actually telling the truth, but in a way to make fun of it.

So, the jailer was asking how to go to heaven. And Paul told him.

And, from all your posts, you disagree with Paul's answer. If you do agree with Paul's answer of how to go to heaven, you have been very unclear about it.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Unbelievers cannot understand advanced doctrines, such as the indwelling and filling of the Holy Spirit, eternal rewards, divine discipline, etc.

You might ought to go back and read 1 Cor 2:14 again. I don't read any words in 1 Cor 2:14 that remotle say what you have posted.

1 Cor 2:10 does not indicate that the unregenerate man can understand spiritual things that are not the deep spiritual things of God. That is of your own interpretation in order to try to give the unregenerate man the power to save himself.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Do you have an open mind? I think it may be tightly closed, since you don't even bother refute my statements. Much less address the verses I quote and "explain" them.

I believe that I refute all of your statements, if they have a scripture attached to them.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Man is free to accept or reject the offer of salvation. That gives man NO glory or honor for merely accepting a gift.

Christ's crucifiction to redeem those that God gave him from their sins, was an offering to God, for God's acceptance, not to man, for man's acceptance. Jesus redeemed everyone that he died for without the loss of one.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

cts 16-
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

I have answered this before, but you disregard John 10:26 - But ye believe not because ye are not of my sheep. Why would Paul tell a person to believe, when he knew that he was not of God's sheep, and incapable of believing?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

From the slave girl:
16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling.
17 She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.”
18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.

There should be no doubt that she was screaming all this in a mocking tone, the only reason Paul would be annoyed. She was actually telling the truth, but in a way to make fun of it.

So, the jailer was asking how to go to heaven. And Paul told him.

It is getting redundant to keep telling you that you are confusing temporal deliverances with eternal deliverances. We have had many discussions over this same confusion of yours.

 

[DavidTree]

Well, I am very familiar with Romans 11 but I don't see where you think this has something to do with the Rapture - one way or the other. Besides, I was not discussing the Rapture, I was discussing the Millennial Kingdom.

Well, i discuss the Full Gospel which was first spoken by the LORD in Genesis.

Since 'pre-trib rapture' never came out of the mouth of God, it is for your benefit and the benefit of the Body of Christ to SEE and HEAR the harmonious song of Scripture.

Therefore the writing of the Book of Romans sings along from the Holy Spirit and expels the error of 'pre-trib', especially in chapter 11.

Peace

 

[ForestGreenCook]

FreeGrace2 said:
How in the world would ANYONE come to that conclusion? I quoted Paul's answer to you about HOW to be saved, and it had NOTHING to do with work.

Seriously? You aren't familiar with the jailer's question and Paul's answer????

Acts 16-
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

The jailer wasn't asking how to be delivered from the earthquake, if you want to go that way. How do I know he was specifically speaking of eternal salvation?

From the slave girl:
16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling.
17 She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.”
18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.

There should be no doubt that she was screaming all this in a mocking tone, the only reason Paul would be annoyed. She was actually telling the truth, but in a way to make fun of it.

So, the jailer was asking how to go to heaven. And Paul told him.

And, from all your posts, you disagree with Paul's answer. If you do agree with Paul's answer of how to go to heaven, you have been very unclear about it.

Paul understands many things that you do not understand; Paul understands that God choose an elect people before the foundation of the world and gave them to his Son to adopt them as his children by his death on the cross, saying that the work that his Father sent him to do was finished and there would be no more sacrifice for sins.

Paul also understood that there is no way that mankind can GET eternally delivered , because Jesus took care of that on the cross, and it is finished.