CHRIST THE CHOSEN ONE, THE ELECT OF THE FATHER

[FreeGrace2]

Clarity is not one of your strong points.

Thanks for your opinion. Sorry that English seems not to be your native language.

First of all, you are studying from the wrong version of the bible

Ok, so you are "one of those guys". Got it. I use biblehub.com regularly as well as using interlinears and lexicons, so you don't need to lecture me on which VERSION is wrong.

secondly, you are interpreting that the heart is the heart of stone (unregenerate) which, in fact, it is the heart of flesh.(regenerate)

Can you prove this? I kinda have a problem with someone who has trouble with English telling me what the Bible means.

Thirdly, justification is imputed to the born again child of God, the unregenerate man is not made just as a result of his belief.

Wow. Talk about "lack of clarity". You kinda take the cake. What do you mean by "as a result of his belief", regarding the "unregenerate man"?

I have to ask; what is this "belief" that you mention? If it is belief in the gospel and faith in Jesus Christ, that person IS IS IS regenerate.

Fourthly, you are interpreting that the deliverance is eternal, which in fact, it is a temporal deliverance.

Well, there you go again, hiding behind your pet theory about what "saved" means. Right.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Right, you got it = faith comes "not of yourself" it is the Gift of God.

No, I explained what Eph 2:8 is about in post 333. I guess you missed it.

Here it is again:

As to application to salvation, the Bible teaches that both salvation and regeneration are preceded by faith.

Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Here, Paul was basically equating the red words, which refer to regeneration, with the blue words, which refer to salvation.

Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

The blue words in v.8 are the same words at the end of v.5, which are also in blue.

The green words precede both regeneration and salvation. That's what "through faith" means.

In order to "go through" something, the something must exist that you are "going through".

Many people argue that the phrase "this is not from yourselves" refers to faith. iow, God gives the faith in order to believe and be saved.

However, parsing the verse reveals the truth:

For it is by grace (feminine) you have been saved (masculine), through faith (feminine)—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God (masculine)—

In Greek, the genders must match. We see that "grace" is feminine as is "faith". And "salvation" is masculine) as is "of God".

So, the phrase "this is not from yourselves" refers back to the feminine, or "faith", not "salvation".

SEE if you can find the LORD saying this in the Gospel.

I proved that the gift is salvation, not faith. I don't need to check. I know He didn't. Paul and Jesus would never disagree.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
If YOU were the drowning man, and a lifeguard reached out and offered you a lifebouy, you'd be praising the lifeguard for saving you, and you KNOW IT.

How does a dead man catch hold of the lifebouy?

Silly question. Dead men aren't drowning. They are already dead. However, to equate a physically dead man to a spiritually dead man is the height of confusion. There is no parallel.

My example parallels the gospel, and I know you don't like that. Your calvinism keeps you from seeing the simplicity of the gospel.

When God quickens the unregenerate man, he is dead Eph 2:1.

You mean God kills those He quickens????

Or, are you just having some troubles figuring out the English language. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The apostles were instructed to go and preach to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matt 10:6-7).

I highly recommend that you finally get to the the last chapter of Matthew. There, you'll see how inaccurate your comment is.

Matt 28:19,20
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

I am available for apologies between the hours of 11am to 1pm some days.

 

[Iconoclast]

It would seem from the Scriptures we are predestined by God from this age to the true Life in the Kingdom when we choose to believe and follow Jesus Yeshua,..

The bible does not teach this. We were elected as sinners who God was intending to save.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
You have no case. Titus 2:11 obviously includes the entire human race in the word "all".

That is by your own interpretation, which is false.

Again, thanks for your opinion. But I don't need it.

There is, absolutely, a connection between Titus 2:11 and Eph 2;8 and Eph 1:1. unless you want the scriptures to say that mankind can deliver himself eternally by his own actions.

See? Your FALSE and calvinistic views have blinded you to the reality of the Bible. I'm sorry that you are so hamstrung.

Titus 2:11 doesn't need "interpretation", unless someone has only an English Bible and cannot read English.

My native language is English and the words of Titus 2:11 are very clear. We of the English language say the verse is clear, plain and straightforward language.

God's grace offers salvation to everyone.

Can you address this verse and prove to me that it doesn't mean what I just said above? By that, I mean exegete the verse and show me what Paul was actually saying.

Can you do that? That's how you prove your case. With evidence. Not opinions, talking points, etc.

Actually, if you could prove that Titus 2:11 means something different than how the very clear and straightforward words read, I would greatly appreciate being corrected.

I suspect that you don't want to be wrong any more than I do. And I really really don't want to be wrong.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
John wrote that and he wasn't quoting Jesus when he wrote it.

Yes, he did quote Jesus a lot.

Do you understand the word "contradiction"? What have I contradicted.

The point should be clear to you. Yes, John did quote Jesus a lot. But John's writings WEREN'T ONLY what Jesus said.

Can you understand that?

I understand more than you give me credit for.

I would give you some credit IF IF IF you would just answer my question. Which was, "what have I contradicted"?

You're just dodging my question. Let's engage, ok? That's how discussions work.

 

[FreeGrace2]

First of all, before faith of spiritual things can enter man's heart, his heart must be changed from the heart of stone (the unregenerate man) to a heart of flesh (the regenerate man), (Ezk 36:26).

Please show from that text where God changes the heart so he can believe. Or any other text. No limits.

This happens when God quickens the spiritually dead unregenerate man, into a new spiritual life in the new birth. (Eph 2:1)

What I will agree with is that God makes alive (regenerates, born again) the dead human spirit when a man believes in Christ.

What I will absolutely disagree with is the idea that God regenerates in order to believe the gospel.

Maybe you aren't aware, but there are NO verses in the Bible that teach what you believe.

Go back to post 333, where I thoroughly explained from Eph 2:5 and 8 that faith precedes both salvation and regeneration.

So there can't be any verse that would say the opposite.

 

[DavidTree]

No, I explained what Eph 2:8 is about in post 333. I guess you missed it.

Here it is again:

As to application to salvation, the Bible teaches that both salvation and regeneration are preceded by faith.

Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Here, Paul was basically equating the red words, which refer to regeneration, with the blue words, which refer to salvation.

Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

The blue words in v.8 are the same words at the end of v.5, which are also in blue.

The green words precede both regeneration and salvation. That's what "through faith" means.

In order to "go through" something, the something must exist that you are "going through".

Many people argue that the phrase "this is not from yourselves" refers to faith. iow, God gives the faith in order to believe and be saved.

However, parsing the verse reveals the truth:

For it is by grace (feminine) you have been saved (masculine), through faith (feminine)—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God (masculine)—

In Greek, the genders must match. We see that "grace" is feminine as is "faith". And "salvation" is masculine) as is "of God".

So, the phrase "this is not from yourselves" refers back to the feminine, or "faith", not "salvation".


I proved that the gift is salvation, not faith. I don't need to check. I know He didn't. Paul and Jesus would never disagree.

You cannot be saved without faith = so where does it come from? How is it generated?

 

[JaumeJ]

The bible does not teach this. We were elected as sinners who God was intending to save.

Note the subjunctive mood of the verb. Your comment on my contribution makes no sense when the mood is understood.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You cannot be saved without faith = so where does it come from? How is it generated?

I explained it in post 342.

Could you explain what you mean by "how is faith GENERATED"?

Kinda like "how do you GENERATE a thought", right? If not, I'm all ears.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

What do you mean by "as a result of his belief",

No person, regenerate, or unregenerate, can make himself by his belief. The only people who have been made just in the sight of God are those that God gave to his Son to die for.

John wrote that and he wasn't quoting Jesus when he wrote it.

Explanation please.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Can you prove this? I kinda have a problem with someone who has trouble with English telling me what the Bible means.

The dispute of Romans 10:10 was; What kind of heart was Paul referring to. You, evidently, fail to understand that in the process of the new birth, God exchanges the stony heart of the unregenerate to a heart of flesh, that is soft enough that it can be pricked to feel guilty of breaking a spiritual law of God.

The born again person, because he feels guilty of breaking a spiritual law, will believe unto righteousness, and confess, which brings about a temporal deliverance.

The unregenerate man, before God exchanges his heart in the new birth, will not repent of breaking a spiritual law that he cannot discern, and thinks it to be foolishness.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Well, there you go again, hiding behind your pet theory about what "saved" means. Right.

You have admitted in previous posts that there is a temporal deliverance received here in this world. for the regenerated person.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

FreeGrace2 said:
If YOU were the drowning man, and a lifeguard reached out and offered you a lifebouy, you'd be praising the lifeguard for saving you, and you KNOW IT.

Silly question. Dead men aren't drowning. They are already dead. However, to equate a physically dead man to a spiritually dead man is the height of confusion. There is no parallel.

My example parallels the gospel, and I know you don't like that. Your calvinism keeps you from seeing the simplicity of the gospel.


You mean God kills those He quickens????

Or, are you just having some troubles figuring out the English language. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here.

The unregenerate person is dead to understanding the things of the Spirit.

I think that you already know what I said about when God quickens him. That was not a kind remark to say. The only reason that you think that I have a problem with understanding the english language, is the fact that Jesus parables are still a mystery to you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
What do you mean by "as a result of his belief",

No person, regenerate, or unregenerate, can make himself by his belief.

Do you proof your posts, before you post? Your sentence says "no one can make himself by his belief". Hm. Did you mean "no one can make himself believe"?

So, let me challenge your calvinism. I'm sure you have beliefs regarding a wide range of subject. If you didn't believe all by yourself, who made all those beliefs for you? Please answer. Your question is silly, but since you are serious about this, I'm curious who is making your beliefs for you. You know, on politics, etiquette, etc. Unless you have no other beliefs, you should be able to recognize who is making all those beliefs, if not you.

Do you see the silliness of your question? No one "makes themselves believe". They believe what they are convinced of.

Some people believe things that AREN'T true, and some people believe things that ARE true.

What convinces YOU?

The only people who have been made just in the sight of God are those that God gave to his Son to die for.

And yet, you have NO verse that says that.

When I apply the Berean study method to your (calvinist) claims, I find NO verse that says what calvinism says.

FreeGrace2 said:
John wrote that and he wasn't quoting Jesus when he wrote it.

Explanation please.

What I said is quite clear. Do you believe (are convinced) that EVERYTHING John wrote was a quote of Jesus'?

John did quote Jesus, but NOT EVERYTHING he wrote was a quote from Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Can you prove this? I kinda have a problem with someone who has trouble with English telling me what the Bible means.

The dispute of Romans 10:10 was; What kind of heart was Paul referring to.

There should be no dispute or argument about it.

"For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."

That is clear. "with YOUR heart". Paul is teaching where our belief comes from; our heart.

Paul didn't specify some "spechul" kind of heart, but of course, calvinists will ALWAYS defer to some spechul kind of heart.

You, evidently, fail to understand that in the process of the new birth, God exchanges the stony heart of the unregenerate to a heart of flesh, that is soft enough that it can be pricked to feel guilty of breaking a spiritual law of God.

I understand exactly what the Bible teaches. WHEN a person believes in Christ "with his heart", God THEN regenerates that person.

Calvinism has a lot of things backward. You keep thinking regeneration precedes faith, but the Bible says faith precedes regeneration.

And I SHOWED you from Eph 2:5 and 8. You have no excuse for not understanding this.

The born again person, because he feels guilty of breaking a spiritual law, will believe unto righteousness

See? Backwards. The bon again person IS one who has believed BEFORE he was born again.

The unregenerate man, before God exchanges his heart in the new birth, will not repent of breaking a spiritual law that he cannot discern, and thinks it to be foolishness.

I think your view of the Bible is foolishness. You aren't even close to what Scripture says.

If calvinism were true, there WOULD be a verse that plainly shows that regeneration precedes faith, or that regeneration is necessary in order to believe. And there aren't any such verses. Because the Bible HAS Eph 2:5 and 8 which refute calvinism's claims.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Well, there you go again, hiding behind your pet theory about what "saved" means. Right.

You have admitted in previous posts that there is a temporal deliverance received here in this world. for the regenerated person.

I have. So what? You seem to apply that to nearly EVERY mention of "save" or "salvation" in the Bible.

And many uses of "death" refers to loss of fellowship (not salvation) of the believer. Were you aware of that? Most calvinists have no idea what I'm talking about.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The unregenerate person is dead to understanding the things of the Spirit.

Yes, I've explained that. But you keep defaulting to the false doctrine that unregenerate people cannot understand the gospel, UNTIL God changes their heart. And yet, you have NO verses that teach that.

I think that you already know what I said about when God quickens him. That was not a kind remark to say.

Could you give me some context, please? What was my "not kind remark"?

Your response was to my post about the example of a drowning man and being offered a lifebouy. Yet you brush it off as irrelevant or something. Why can't you just deal with it?

The only reason that you think that I have a problem with understanding the english language, is the fact that Jesus parables are still a mystery to you.

You mean you were speaking in parables too? Are you not aware that ONLY the one who gives a parable is authorized to explain it?

But, since you apparently been speaking in parables, why haven't you explained any of them, and worse, why have you ignored my questions about your parables, if that is what they are?

You have no right or authority to explain any of Jesus' parables. Even Jesus' own disciples needed Him to explain them.

 

[awelight]

The unregenerate person is dead to understanding the things of the Spirit.

I think that you already know what I said about when God quickens him. That was not a kind remark to say. The only reason that you think that I have a problem with understanding the english language, is the fact that Jesus parables are still a mystery to you.

I see you are still fighting the fight with the "free will" nemesis of Grace.

Since he denies the fall caused "depravity" and thus, will not acknowledge the meaning of being "dead in trespasses and sin", there is not much hope for getting him to see the truth.

He goes on and on about believing comes first then the New Birth (Regeneration), but will not acknowledge that this isn't a logical progression. Here is the question:

If one is able to believe before "Regeneration", then what would be the point of Regeneration?

Since the work of Regeneration, by the Spirit, is to bestow life - what good is it if you already believe in Christ and possess life? Belief before Regeneration is an illogical and flawed argument. It is like saying, I can accomplish something before I was ever given physical birth. What? How can one accomplish something when they do not yet possess life? Therefore, by the same logic, one cannot accomplish something, spiritually, until they have been birthed spiritually.

Keep up the good fight and God be with you.