Once saved always saved?
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When we are born again, we receive the first fruits of the Spirit, and one of those fruits is faith (Gal 5:22)
Before we were born again, we were just as the unregenerate, Eph 2:12 - That at that time, ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel (Jacob), and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.
The creature referenced in the previous verses before verse 23, are those adopted children that were not given the knowledge of the righteousness of God, and are going about to establish their own righteous by their works.
Again, the unregenerate are not referenced in these scriptures.
FreeGrace2 said:
Rather, you WANT or DEMAND that the gospel cannot be understood by unregenerate people, which is really just nonsense.
I understand Scripture, unlike yourself.
OK, show me any verse I misquoted. I dare you. And what gobbledy gook is "Beareans mythed" mean anyway.
I couldn't even spell your words on my computer. I had to force the spelling. Don't you know who the Bereans are? I gave you the citation of how they studied Scripture. You should try it. At least have verses that actually SAY what you SAY.
Rather, you WANT or DEMAND that the gospel cannot be understood by unregenerate people, which is really just nonsense.
I understand Scripture, unlike yourself.
OK, show me any verse I misquoted. I dare you. And what gobbledy gook is "Beareans mythed" mean anyway.
I couldn't even spell your words on my computer. I had to force the spelling. Don't you know who the Bereans are? I gave you the citation of how they studied Scripture. You should try it. At least have verses that actually SAY what you SAY.
FreeGrace2 said:
God has given ALL believers the SAME revelation. It is called the Bible. The issue is how to understand it. And you aren't.
Even your flawed judgment of me is quite unbiblical. Don't you know the Bible forbids believers to judge others?
Rom 14:10 - You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.
Maybe if you studied the Bible more, you'd know what it teaches and you'd abide by what it teaches.
God has given ALL believers the SAME revelation. It is called the Bible. The issue is how to understand it. And you aren't.
Even your flawed judgment of me is quite unbiblical. Don't you know the Bible forbids believers to judge others?
Rom 14:10 - You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.
Maybe if you studied the Bible more, you'd know what it teaches and you'd abide by what it teaches.
FreeGrace2 said:
Your views about "adopted children" and "lost sheep of Israel" are far from the truth. Keep studying.
This answer is just arrogant.
You don't have a clue what you are talking about.
Your views about "adopted children" and "lost sheep of Israel" are far from the truth. Keep studying.
This answer is just arrogant.
You don't have a clue what you are talking about.
FreeGrace2 said:
Rather, you WANT or DEMAND that the gospel cannot be understood by unregenerate people, which is really just nonsense.
I agree. Unbelievers cannot understand spiritual things, and I explained what "spiritual things" refers to. Which you have not responded to.
Regardless, the gospel is a trust issue, something that everyone can understand, and then decide whether to believe God's promise or not.
None of your verses are being understood properly.
Please prove your wild claim. If you can.
Rather, you WANT or DEMAND that the gospel cannot be understood by unregenerate people, which is really just nonsense.
I agree. Unbelievers cannot understand spiritual things, and I explained what "spiritual things" refers to. Which you have not responded to.
Regardless, the gospel is a trust issue, something that everyone can understand, and then decide whether to believe God's promise or not.
None of your verses are being understood properly.
Please prove your wild claim. If you can.
FreeGrace2 said:
And I refuted your "phase theory" with Rom 8:23. I asked a straightforward question and all you do is punt. You repeatedly FAIL to answer my question
Actually, I meant I used the Bible to refute your notion about adoption. Rom 8:23. The verse I asked you about. And you didn't answer.
You aren't even close. Paul took the word from the Roman system of adoption. In FACT, they would formally adopt their own children. Totally different than what is done currently.
I invite you to do some research on the internet about ancient Roman adoption. It might open your eyes.
Believers ARE God's own children. By DNA, which is the Holy Spirit. Totally different than what we call adoption today.
Go do some research. You aren't even close to what Paul meant.
Since I'm not sure you'll take my advice, I'll just tell you what Romans 8:23 is about. The believer's adoption is WHEN we receive our glorified resurrected bodies when Jesus comes. There are NO phases, as you opine.
And I refuted your "phase theory" with Rom 8:23. I asked a straightforward question and all you do is punt. You repeatedly FAIL to answer my question
Actually, I meant I used the Bible to refute your notion about adoption. Rom 8:23. The verse I asked you about. And you didn't answer.
You aren't even close. Paul took the word from the Roman system of adoption. In FACT, they would formally adopt their own children. Totally different than what is done currently.
I invite you to do some research on the internet about ancient Roman adoption. It might open your eyes.
Believers ARE God's own children. By DNA, which is the Holy Spirit. Totally different than what we call adoption today.
Go do some research. You aren't even close to what Paul meant.
Since I'm not sure you'll take my advice, I'll just tell you what Romans 8:23 is about. The believer's adoption is WHEN we receive our glorified resurrected bodies when Jesus comes. There are NO phases, as you opine.
FreeGrace2 said:
Nonsense. When are you going to address Rom 8:23 then?
Which has nothing to do with adoption. Or Rom 8:23.
No, before being born again, we ARE the unregenerate. Your wording needs much help.
Nothing about adoption here.
First, biblical adoption is still FUTURE. Second, why were any of God's children not given the knowledge of God's righteousness? Where do you get that from?
You have shown over and over how much you do not understand Scripture.
You don't understand biblical adoption.
You don't understand salvation.
You don't understand that the righteousness of God is easily learned from Scripture.
Nonsense. When are you going to address Rom 8:23 then?
Which has nothing to do with adoption. Or Rom 8:23.
No, before being born again, we ARE the unregenerate. Your wording needs much help.
Nothing about adoption here.
First, biblical adoption is still FUTURE. Second, why were any of God's children not given the knowledge of God's righteousness? Where do you get that from?
You have shown over and over how much you do not understand Scripture.
You don't understand biblical adoption.
You don't understand salvation.
You don't understand that the righteousness of God is easily learned from Scripture.
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FreeGrace2 said:
The TRUTH always has an answer to every question.
You think so because your whole viewpoint is unbiblical. So you misunderstand my answers like you misunderstand the Bible.
As I've been showing you.
The TRUTH always has an answer to every question.
You think so because your whole viewpoint is unbiblical. So you misunderstand my answers like you misunderstand the Bible.
As I've been showing you.
I could go back and count your posts that discredit me, which would be most of them, including this one. You are to set in your false doctrine to ever consider any other doctrine with an open mind, and that is because of your prideful attitude.
I am tired of repeating the same proof texts to you over and over again. Hopefully, you will eventually let the Holy Spirit within you reveal some truths to you, if you could only be humble enough to deny yourself.
It is difficult to have people see and understand what you see and understand when so many are blind to the truth. What we have to remember is that understanding comes from the Spirit of understanding which is from God. I suggest, right now, before we continue with any more posting, that we pray to God, our Father, and our Lord, Jesus Christ, thanking them for our blessings through them and for the understanding of Scripture that comes through the Holy Spirit. I personally pray that for all of you as well as myself. Include yourselves in your prayer. It is God who performs miracles of understanding through His Spirit.
How about we use the correct term; correct you. That's what I do. If you see that as being "discredited" that's your business. Some people just don't like being corrected. It offends them. Maybe that is your view as well.
OH, oh, oh, you are DISCREDITING ME.
They sure don't prove your theories and false doctrine.
Since you aren't God, and do NOT have omniscience, please leave your god complex ideas to yourself.
Rather, you should let go of your god complex.
You speak of what you do not know.
OH, oh, oh, you are DISCREDITING ME.
They sure don't prove your theories and false doctrine.
Since you aren't God, and do NOT have omniscience, please leave your god complex ideas to yourself.
Rather, you should let go of your god complex.
You speak of what you do not know.
FreeGrace2 said:
Your views about "adopted children" and "lost sheep of Israel" are far from the truth. Keep studying.
I asked how the "remnant" gets this knowledge. Everyone has the Bible. But you in typical fashion won't answer me.
And you seem (hard to figure out) to believe that everyone is an adopted child of God, but only your fantasy "remnant" has the truth.
That is pure nonsense. You really don't know the Bible. Your posts prove it over and over.
Your views about "adopted children" and "lost sheep of Israel" are far from the truth. Keep studying.
I asked how the "remnant" gets this knowledge. Everyone has the Bible. But you in typical fashion won't answer me.
And you seem (hard to figure out) to believe that everyone is an adopted child of God, but only your fantasy "remnant" has the truth.
That is pure nonsense. You really don't know the Bible. Your posts prove it over and over.
Have you never considered how your view contradicts Scripture?
You make the claim that there is this "remnant" who have the knowledge of God, but there are also "adopted children of God" who don't have it. Yet you say they are God's children. So that would mean God has kept this knowledge from some of His children and given it to others, the remnant, as you say.
This totally contradicts Scripture.
1 Tim 2-
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
v.4 directly refutes your theory. He DOESN'T WANT any of His children to be ignorant of the truth. In fact, He wants everyone to come to a knowledge of the truth.
v.6 proves that Jesus died for everyone. It says so plainly.
You make the claim that there is this "remnant" who have the knowledge of God, but there are also "adopted children of God" who don't have it. Yet you say they are God's children. So that would mean God has kept this knowledge from some of His children and given it to others, the remnant, as you say.
This totally contradicts Scripture.
1 Tim 2-
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
v.4 directly refutes your theory. He DOESN'T WANT any of His children to be ignorant of the truth. In fact, He wants everyone to come to a knowledge of the truth.
v.6 proves that Jesus died for everyone. It says so plainly.
Hi Phil. Thanks for the response.
What I mean by post-justification is good works done AFTER justification. In Augustinian theology, which I follow, all good works done before justification (such as those unbelievers do) are merely natural good works and don't have a supernatural reward in Heaven. But the Good Works Christians do, after being justified by faith in Christ, and receiving the Holy Spirit, are supernaturally meritorious and do earn/merit an eternal reward. Thus, those who labor more for the Lord will be rewarded more, according to: "every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour" (1 Cor 3:8)
Could you please clarify if you agree or disagree? Thanks.
Catholic and Lutheran theologians recently signed a joint declaration agreeing that initial justification is by grace through faith and love, and normally happens in Baptism: "25.We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. By the action of the Holy Spirit in baptism, they are granted the gift of salvation, which lays the basis for the whole Christian life. They place their trust in God's gracious promise by justifying faith, which includes hope in God and love for him. Such a faith is active in love and thus the Christian cannot and should not remain without works. But whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it." From: https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/joint-declaration-on-the-doctrine-of-justification-2356
The Biblical basis for Baptismal Regeneration are passages like John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Titus 3:5, 1 Pet 3:21 etc etc.
Just quoting one such passage below.
"16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’
Initial Justification happens by Grace through Faith, and not of works, but in Baptism. Now, if a person legitimately can't be Baptized, then he can make an act of faith in Christ and repentance for his sins, and he will be forgiven. But normally washing away of sins, as the above passage indicates, happens in Baptism.
And similarly, we believe Continual Sanctification happens through Holy Communion, as John 6 indicates, and if we make use of this means of sanctification, we will be sanctified faster by God, bear more fruit, and finally receive Perseverance.
Jn 6:56: "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him."
Jn 15:5: "He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."
If God intended us to rely on faith alone, and e.g. never go to our churches for Baptism, Communion etc, why did He institute them in the first place? Any thoughts on that? Grace through Faith, yes, but Grace through Faith in the ordnances/sacraments of baptism, communion etc.
God Bless.
What I mean by post-justification is good works done AFTER justification. In Augustinian theology, which I follow, all good works done before justification (such as those unbelievers do) are merely natural good works and don't have a supernatural reward in Heaven. But the Good Works Christians do, after being justified by faith in Christ, and receiving the Holy Spirit, are supernaturally meritorious and do earn/merit an eternal reward. Thus, those who labor more for the Lord will be rewarded more, according to: "every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour" (1 Cor 3:8)
Could you please clarify if you agree or disagree? Thanks.
Catholic and Lutheran theologians recently signed a joint declaration agreeing that initial justification is by grace through faith and love, and normally happens in Baptism: "25.We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. By the action of the Holy Spirit in baptism, they are granted the gift of salvation, which lays the basis for the whole Christian life. They place their trust in God's gracious promise by justifying faith, which includes hope in God and love for him. Such a faith is active in love and thus the Christian cannot and should not remain without works. But whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it." From: https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/joint-declaration-on-the-doctrine-of-justification-2356
The Biblical basis for Baptismal Regeneration are passages like John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Titus 3:5, 1 Pet 3:21 etc etc.
Just quoting one such passage below.
"16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’
Initial Justification happens by Grace through Faith, and not of works, but in Baptism. Now, if a person legitimately can't be Baptized, then he can make an act of faith in Christ and repentance for his sins, and he will be forgiven. But normally washing away of sins, as the above passage indicates, happens in Baptism.
And similarly, we believe Continual Sanctification happens through Holy Communion, as John 6 indicates, and if we make use of this means of sanctification, we will be sanctified faster by God, bear more fruit, and finally receive Perseverance.
Jn 6:56: "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him."
Jn 15:5: "He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."
If God intended us to rely on faith alone, and e.g. never go to our churches for Baptism, Communion etc, why did He institute them in the first place? Any thoughts on that? Grace through Faith, yes, but Grace through Faith in the ordnances/sacraments of baptism, communion etc.
God Bless.