Struggling reading through romans 8 & 9 and Calvinism.

[Rosemaryx]

Yes it makes no sense to me to state they were lukewarm Christians even though He is addressing a particular church. Obviously the invitation is to any men.

He speaks to the lukewarm Christian first and then extends out the invitation, it becomes rather absurd to think He was extending an invitation to those already saved, since a luke warm Christian is still a Christian who is relying on his own righteousness rather than the righteousness of Jesus.


Very few come out of this dogma of Calvinism/TULIP, not sure why it is that way!!

I am not a Calvinist , just in case you were addressing me...
Genuine question...Is a luke warm person not someone sitting on the fence , not on one side or the other ?
Why would Jesus say He would spit them out of His mouth ?...We are either in Christ all the way , or not , no good going toe to toe with Him...

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You have misunderstood the meaning of this sentence.
God's purpose and grace which in Jesus Christ before the world began.
It's not to express that it's given to a specific person.
God's will is for everyone.
What does Theory of predestination and election actually mean to God's will to save everyone?

It is you that has misunderstood the meaning of many scriptures, which in your theory does not harmonize with each other

The "us" in Ephesians 1:4 are a specific people, and they are the saints witch are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus, who have been, before the foundation of the world, predestined to be adopted as his children, bu Jesus Christ.

 

[KelbyofGod]

It means getting down out of the tree after a day of picking pears.

Don't forget the matching of feathers from the soft underbelly of a goose.

(some might have to ask or think about that one for a while)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[KelbyofGod]

I am not a Calvinist , just in case you were addressing me...
Genuine question...Is a luke warm person not someone sitting on the fence , not on one side or the other ?
Why would Jesus say He would spit them out of His mouth ?...We are either in Christ all the way , or not , no good going toe to toe with Him...

If you can look past the joking nature of my previous posting...

IMO, I think lukewarm means something along the lines of not trying very hard, not taking a stand (one way or the other), trying to offend no-one, hiding your light under a bushel, being salt that has lost its flavor, or hiding your 'pound' or 'talent' in the earth rather than taking the risk to use it bravely, etc

A person who relies heavily on "once saved, always saved" doctrine probably has to disregard or downplay the outcome of those parables as if Jesus wasn't talking to HIS people when he said them. But that's a little more than you asked.

Paul warns people of the potential of being cut off , and also speaks of the redemptive nature of being graft in again. Neither of those can happen if they weren't first made one of the branches. ( as in Jesus' statement to the believers...."I am the vine, ye are the branches")

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[ForestGreenCook]

“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

All scriptures must harmonize. Who is the "any man"? the any man is limited to the man that "can hear" spiritual things.

John 8:43 - Why do you not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

John 10:27 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

John 8:47 - He that is of God heareth God's words, ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Isaiah 45:22
“Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.”

It appears that the Father is calling out to all.

From the uttermost part of the earth is where Jesus will send his angels to gather his elect at his second coming (Mark 13:27).

 

[Rosemaryx]

If you can look past the joking nature of my previous posting...

IMO, I think lukewarm means something along the lines of not trying very hard, not taking a stand (one way or the other), trying to offend no-one, hiding your light under a bushel, being salt that has lost its flavor, or hiding your 'pound' or 'talent' in the earth rather than taking the risk to use it bravely, etc

A person who relies heavily on "once saved, always saved" doctrine probably has to disregard or downplay the outcome of those parables as if Jesus wasn't talking to HIS people when he said them. But that's a little more than you asked.

Paul warns people of the potential of being cut off , and also speaks of the redemptive nature of being graft in again. Neither of those can happen if they weren't first made one of the branches. ( as in Jesus' statement to the believers...."I am the vine, ye are the branches")

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Thank you for replying...

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Jhn 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Both God's election and man's choice are Biblical. That's just the way it is.....

Man's choice is limited to how he wants to live his life as he sojourns here on earth. His eternal inheritance is not by his choice, but is by God's sovereign grace.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Speak for yourself. Or somebody else. Not me. I don't believe that for one split-second.

In fact IMO the majority here don't believe that.

I believe you are right in there with the rest of them, even if you don't admit it.


The same as it was in Jesus days on earth. The majority rejected his doctrine. If you go with the spiritual majority, you are following you wrong crowd, only a remnant of the house of, spiritual, Israel have the knowledge of the truth of Jesus doctrine.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

In terms of salvation he only talks about the people Israel. He very specifically makes the distinction that not all of Israel are Israel. He very clearly establishes the fact that not all of Israel will be saved, but all Israel will be saved. And he clearly alludes to himself as a member of all Israel and therefore evidence that the promises have/will be fulfilled

Jacob had his name changed by God to be called Israel, who represents spiritual Israel, and some of the nation of Israel are not included in spiritual Israel, which includes those from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

Most of spiritual Israel turned away from God, except the remnant of spiritual Israel, who were given the knowledge of the truths contained in Jesus doctrine.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Not all children of flesh meet the condition of belonging to the promises. He clearly isn't talking about all of his countrymen, nor all fleshly kinsmen, nor all Israelites, but all of those qualities plus being heirs to the promises. Paul takes a lot of time to dispel the misconception that not everyone that claims to be heir to the promises is actually heir to the promises. The promises were only ever to those with an internal nature to turn to God and not all that were counted among Israelites

The larger part of spiritual Israel that turned away from God did not lose their eternal inheritance, they only lost their fellowship with God, until they repent.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You can be assured as long as you believe the cross you are saved. I believe we are predestined to be saved forever as long as we believe the cross. In Galatians they stopped believing and Paul doubted they were saved. The cross is all you need with no works. The Galatians returned to works. That would be a good book to read. No one can take you from the cross. And salvation is eternal life.

Eternal salvation was accomplished by Jesus on the cross for all of those that his Father gave him. Whether a person believes that, or not, it does not erase the fact that Jesus accomplished eternal salvation for all of those that he died for.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The people ARE the nation. A theocracy created by God for His own purposes.

Deu 7:6
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Deu 14:2
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

1Ki 3:8
And thy servant is in the midst of thy people which thou hast chosen, a great people, that cannot be numbered nor counted for multitude.

Psa 33:12
Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

1Ch 16:13
O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones.

Isa 43:20
The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.

2Ch 6:6
But I have chosen Jerusalem, that my name might be there; and have chosen David to be over my people Israel.

Psa 135:4
For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.

Isa 41:8
But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

Isa 44:1
Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:

1Ch 17:21
And what one nation in the earth is like thy people Israel, whom God went to redeem to be his own people, to make thee a name of greatness and terribleness, by driving out nations from before thy people, whom thou hast redeemed out of Egypt?

Isa 43:1
But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

Isa 44:23
Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.

Luk 1:68
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

God changed Jacob's name to be called no more Jacob, but to be called Israel. Jacob/Israel is spiritual Israel, which does not include some of the nation of Israel.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Come on bro. Paul loves his people and nation......and so should you. What is your problem?

Some of the Nation of Israel, is not included in spiritual Israel, who is Jacob as Israel. God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel (Gen 32:28).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

More TWISTING of the Scriptures. "All the ends of the earth" means all of humanity. But since that is not good enough for your false gospel, you twist the Word of God -- actually the words of God.

At lest all of the scriptures harmonize in the doctrine that I believe in, unlike yours.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

OK.....here you go. Not if, but when.

Act 1:6
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

And we know that God created a spiritual Israel through Jacob, by changing his name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel, which does not include all of the nation of Israel, but includes most of the nation of Israel, and also includes people from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I basically like/agree with what you're saying...but I heard an explanation that makes more sense (to me). I'll paraphrase and elaborate:

A "Christian" (by my definition) is a marriage of God and man... making a new creature that includes both. You bring who you are, God brings who he is. You bring your corruptible flesh, God brings his incorruptible spirit.

Your flesh remains just as corruptible, deceptive, prone to temptation, just as likely to sin and fail as it was on the day you entered the relationship and no matter how long you've been in the relationship. And it will stay that way until the day of the redemption of the purchased possession, the day we are "changed", the day of the manifestation of the sons of God. Then it too (the creature also) will be changed into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.

And at NO TIME prior to that glorious day is your flesh trustworthy. <-- That's what you bring into the relationship.

God brings himself. God is a Spirit...that cannot lie...that IS love...that cannot tempt or be tempted with sin...etc. He can ALWAYS be trusted...and he cannot change.<--That's what He brings to the relationship.

The natural man is simply that corruptible part we bring into the relationship. And the spiritual man is simply that incorruptible part God brings.

The way the guy said it originally is this: "Don't fool yourself. Your flesh is NOT getting better. Your flesh is no more trustable than the day you were born. We like to think we're getting better.. But if we let our flesh have its way, we'll quickly find out that our flesh hasn't forgotten any of those things it likes to do. Your flesh hasn't gotten better at all."

At first that was a little hard to hear, but the longer I thought about it, the more it makes sense.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

We all need to be open to gleaning more truths from the scriptures. I am glad you have gleaned some new truths.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

John 10:
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Ps 73:5 They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they plagued like other men.

Care to explain how you think I have avoided them?

Let me put it another way. You read them, but you are not gleaning the truth of what they are saying.

You might read them again, with the mindset that they are depicting that God does not love, and does not want to save, all of mankind.

 

[VARob]

Let me put it another way. You read them, but you are not gleaning the truth of what they are saying.

You might read them again, with the mindset that they are depicting that God does not love, and does not want to save, all of mankind.

You have adopted a Calvinist mindset, and that is how you interpret the scriptures. Why not believe them for what they actually say?

1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

 

[soberxp]

Your comments do not explain the scriptures about the world that God hates. You are probably one of those that does not believe that God hated Esau.

We are on a bible discussion forum. How about explaining your comments with scripture references.

That may be because in English, there is only the word hate in English, but the Chinese don't use the word hate. Because we don't have that word in English, the general idea is that God hates evil not God hates Esau,That is, God hates his evil deeds for he wants to kill his brother And he don't do what he says.