Conclusion From Beware the Pseudo-Rapture Doctrine 4

[TheDivineWatermark]

and takes verses set 'after the tribulation' in Matthew 24, and applies them to a time before the tribulation?

I'm not sure who does that... (pre-tribbers don't )...

Matthew 24:29-31 connects with Isaiah 27:9,12-13 (at the "GREAT" trumpet); notice WHO is said to be gathered (and in what manner: "ye shall be gathered ONE by ONE, O ye children of Israel"--not "AS ONE" as we / 'the Church which is His body' will be at "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]")... and notice TO WHERE they are gathered ("to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM"--i.e. to one place upon the earth); and it is not said "the Lord HIMSELF" (as it does with regard to "our Rapture") but rather says "He shall SEND His angels... and THEY shall gather together the..." and notice also that it is the ones having been "judicially SCATTERED" ("to the four winds")--"the Church which is His body" is not who've been "judicially scattered," see.

(COMPARE, if you will, Matthew 24:29-31 with Isaiah 27:9[Rom11:26b,15],12-13 and Dan9:24--all re: Israel [the elect of Israel, yet future])



Compare also the parallel passages of Matthew 24:42-51 (same context as vv.29-31) and therefore Mark 13:32-37 btw (per the latter 1/2 of the OP), with that of [its parallel] Luke 12:36-48, esp vv.38-42 (COMPARE) and then note that this passage clearly states (in v.36) "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom, NOT to MARRY the ones/believers shown in THIS CONTEXT--the marriage/wedding is ALREADY COMPLETED by this point in the chronology [same as in Rev19:7,9], this is what takes place at His RETURN to the EARTH [FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK age, i.e. "THE MEAL [G347]" aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER"... these folks NEVER lift off the earth but are present there upon His RETURN there!)

Then learn that "the BRIDE / WIFE [SINGULAR]" is not being spoken of in these passages in His Olivet Discourse nor in their parallel passages such as this Luke 12:36-48 passage, and others (like Lk19:12,15,17,19 "return"--parallel with Matt25:14-30 in His Olivet Discourse... etc etc...)

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Just read 1 Thess 4:15-17 carefully and clearly if you want to know when the Rapture takes place.

15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

(1) We will not precede those who have fallen asleep. What does that mean? First, those who have fallen asleep will rise and receive glorified bodies, only after th
(2) That is confirmed in verse 16. Once more, unless the Loud Trumpet of God comes, no Rapture before that. No Rapture before "the dead in Christ rise first"
(3) And what does 17 say. After the dead in Christ rise, i.e. the Resurrection of the Saints on the Last Day, takes place, after that the Rapture comes.

1 Corinthians 15 also describes it when it says we will not all sleep but we all all be changed. In the twinkling of an eye, at the Last Trumpet, the dead will be raised, and we, the last generation of Christians, will be changed without dying, i.e. will receive glorified bodies, along with the glorified bodies of the Resurrected Saints. This is for Christians who survived the Tribulation.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

P.S. (to add to my last post) EVERYTHING in Matthew 24:3 and onward (thru 2 chpts) is what will take place FOLLOWING "our Rapture" ...i.e. the beginning of birth pangs" = "the Seals" of Rev6 (the START of the future 7-yr period commonly called the Tribulation period--Paul states that the "Day of the Lord" ARRIVES "exactly as [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" that COMES UPON a woman... many more "birth pangs [plural]" follow on from that INITIAL birth pang, however [it is NOT merely "ONE and DONE" when it comes to "birth PANGS" see], just as Jesus had spoken of in His Olivet Discourse, which occur WELL-PRIOR to His return to the earth in vv.29-31 "AFTER the tribulation of those days"--meaning, "the Day of the Lord" [earthly-located time-period] ARRIVES well before Jesus Himself RETURNS to the earth Rev19).

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

1 Corinthians 15: we shall not all sleep (die, for the last will be raptured), but we shall be changed (into glorified bodies)

"50Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothedf with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality,g then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”"

Notice it says Last Trumpet. Again, at the very end of time, on the Last Day, and the same Trumpet mentioned in 1 Thess 4.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Further, it says this will happen with a Loud Trumpet, and thus is not a "Secret" Rapture.

See how clear it is?

I forget where the word "loud" is used in connection with this trumpet (and event), but whatever...

... what I see is that it also states "in SHOUT / ORDER / COMMAND [G2752]"... which I believe is directed only at "believers" (the Church which is His body") who will then be "caught up" as the outcome. I'm not sure why unbelievers would have to hear this "shout / order / command" at least in an "understood" way (think how the ones who were with Paul on the road to Damascus heard something but didn't comprehend it at all--per Acts 22:9 "And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."--He is perfectly capable of making His voice to be directed ONLY to whom they pertain... i.e. the "SHOUT / ORDER / COMMAND [G2752]" is not applicable to the unbelievers at the time of "our Rapture," see [a distinct "shout" word from that of G2019, for example])

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Do you mean how absurde the pre-trib rapture theory would be, which takes a passage about the rapture and resurrection occuring at the coming of the Lord, and occurs that it occurs seven years before the coming of the Lord, and takes verses set 'after the tribulation' in Matthew 24, and applies them to a time before the tribulation?

yeah I think it stems from misunderstanding the book of revelations vision and symbolic imagery with literal timeframes and numbers and events and dragons and giant beasts

a Jesus actually taught the church they would go through much tribulation and persecutions until the end of the world when he returned

 

[Pilgrimshope]

1 Corinthians 15: we shall not all sleep (die, for the last will be raptured), but we shall be changed (into glorified bodies)

"50Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothedf with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality,g then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”"

Notice it says Last Trumpet. Again, at the very end of time, on the Last Day, and the same Trumpet mentioned in 1 Thess 4.

a yeah it’s just one day one sodden moment like in Noah’s day the world was as usual but then the flood came upon them Suddenly and no body survived.

only the one who was hearing and believing gods warning about the flood was ready for the flood when it came and was saved.

and like Sodom and Gomorrah Abraham knew it was in deep trouble but he didn’t live there , lot he was saved because of Abraham’s plea d his own willingness to help the angels and even sacrifice his own daughters ( as strange as that seems ) because he knew they were messengers of god and to run when they said run

But those who weren’t hearing Gods word all Of them were living life as usual and suddenly fire began to reign down and no one escaped

the gospel is the last trump for us a trumpet was a call to arms a call to gather and assemble for battle because there’s a war coming a day of victory

whoever doesn't hear and accept the gospel isn’t going to be ready the world will be going on as usual like Noah’s day and lots day but as lot was snatched suddenly away just as the fire was out to rein down those alive that day will be suddenly translated into the spiritual body of the resurrection and caught up together in tbe air with Jesus and all believers past present and future and this world will burn and judgement will be made for all who knew there is a God

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

What about you? Are you watching and keeping alert? Are you preparing for the Wedding Feast of the Lamb?

"the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" (which IS the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, btw) pertains to the INVITED "guests [plural]" (who are not the "Bride / Wife [singular]"--contrast of Rev19:9 and 19:7) and pertains to the TEN (or FIVE) "virginS [plural]" whom Jesus is NOT coming with the intention of MARRYING (He will be an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom, at that point in the chronology)...

...and those "5 WISE VirginS [plural]" will (it says) "went in with [G3326 - ACCOMPANYING] Him to the wedding FEAST" i.e. the earthly MK age (note the distinct "with" word, here, which is different from the "G4862 WITH [UNIONed-with]" word used regarding us / the Church which is His body / the "Bride / Wife [singular]" at "our Rapture [/SNATCH]" IN THE AIR event [a distinct event])

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

In 1 Thess 5:10, Paul writes, "...that, WHETHER WE MAY WATCH [same Grk word and meaning as in v.6] or WHETHER WE MAY SLEEP [same Grk word and meaning as in v.6], we [the Church which is His body] should live together WITH [G4862--UNIONed-with] Him"

(note: Paul's Thessalonian epistles speaking of an eschatological salvation, per context--and addressing the Church which is His body [see Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)])




Now, why does Paul state this... THAT, whether this or that... watch or sleep--sleep in the sense that VERSE 6 was referring to, NOT in the sense that chpt 4 using a DIFFERENT "sleep" word was referring to!

(which is distinct from what Jesus had stated, which was more like "watch OR ELSE," see)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The wrath of GOD is not found untill the 5th or 6th chapter of revelation. (Dont have my bible handy)

The 6th chapter (at Seal #1 [i.e. the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]"]) is the start of the future 7-yr period (i.e. the ARRIVAL of "the Day of the Lord" earthly time-period of judgments unfolding upon the earth, starting with the AC / Seal #1--just like Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - "A CERTAIN ONE ['a certain one' bringing deception]");

and when one compares the wording in 2Th2:7b-8a with that of Lam2:3-4 (with its "wrath" words in that context), one can see that the start of God's wrath occurs at Seal #1 (the AC is the means by which His judgment commences to unfold... and 2Th2:10-12 also occurs at that time: "God shall SEND TO THEM strong delusion, THAT they should believe THE LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI")...

... in the same way that (as Hab1:6,12 says) "...O LORD, thou hast ordained them [the Chaldeans / Babylonians] for [as the means of / the instrument of] JUDGMENT..."







["the One delivering US out-from THE WRATH COMING" - 1Th1:10... eschatological "wrath" coming on the earth, per context; Remember, Paul doesn't refer to our Rapture event only ONE TIME, that is, in 1Th4:17 only, but something like 8-9 times in his two Thessalonians epistles!]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

A groom remains a groom till wed.

In our present-day culture perhaps, but it doesn't seem to be the case in the following text, where at the wedding-feast at Cana (esp. per John 2:8-9), where many invited guests are also present... vv.8-9 says, " 8 “Now draw some out,” He said, “and take it to the master of the banquet.” They did so, 9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not know where it was from, but the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside ".

Note that the marriage had already occurred (this scene is of the invited guests celebrating at the banquet i.e. meal)... recall, the guests [plural]" are not the "bride / wife [singular]"... the "bridegroom" in this passage has already been "wed" (hence, the banquet celebration with numerous "guests" present), yet v.9 still calls him a "bridegroom".

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ ... because "bridegroom" pertains to the "wedding FEAST / SUPPER [/meal / celebration]" also, even though he isn't "MARRYING" all those other ppl involved, too! ("guests [plural]" etc)







[note to the readers: "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" = the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth (not at "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event)]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Col3:4 (addressed to the Church which is His body) - "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with [G4862 UNIONed-with] him in glory."





[this can only be true if "our Rapture" preceded that moment, see... and this is indeed what Rev19 spells out, esp. the distinction btwn vv.7 and 9 (as does 1Th4:16-17)]

 

[presidente]

I'm not sure who does that... (pre-tribbers don't )...

Many certainly do. Jesus told of the coming of the Son of Man 'after the tribulation' and further describes this time as being like the days of Noah. He compares His coming to the coming of a thief, and warned His disciples to watch. He also said one shall be taken and the other left. I've heard pre-tribbers use these scriptures to refer to the pre-trib rapture, while the passage is clear that they refer to the time of the coming of the Son of man, which Christ explicitly places after the tribulation in Matthew 24.

 

[oyster67]

The rapture belief entered the Plymouth Brethren through John Nelson Darby, their most influential prophecy teacher. Its origin traces back to 1830 when a certain Margaret McDonald had a “vision” of the end-times.

The Rapture has been understood and taught since the early church. It did not begin with Darby. It began with the Word of God.

The smear tactics employed in the opening paragraph of the op do not lend much credibility either...

The escapist belief of the “rapture” has been employed by Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Jerry Falwell, Hal Lindsy, and Tim LaHaye in his series of novels built around the subject. Its supporters have lied, twisted, distorted, and misrepresented the true origin of this fatal belief.

 

[presidente]

The Rapture has been understood and taught since the early church. It did not begin with Darby. It began with the Word of God.

Very true, but there is scant evidence for belief in pre-trib rapture before Darby. Pretribbers have great difficulty when pressed to show scripture that gives evidence that Jesus returns twice or that the rapture will take place before the second coming. Matthew 24 sets the coming of the Son of Man and the gathering of the elect after the tribulation. II Thessalonians 2:1 speaks of the coming of the Lord and our gathering unto Him. He was writing to a church that would have had a lot of Gentiles in it, not just Jewish believers.

 

[oyster67]

Pretribbers have great difficulty when pressed to show scripture that gives evidence that Jesus returns twice or that the rapture will take place before the second coming.

Pretribbers do not have great difficulty when pressed to show scripture that gives evidence that Jesus returns twice or that the rapture will take place before the second coming.

Jesus returns to the clouds at the Rapture of the Church (1 Thess 4:17) and then returns to the earth seven years later (the Second Coming to earth) to resurrect the Tribulation Saints (Rev 20:4) and this is not a rapture.

So now we all know that...

Pretribbers do not have great difficulty when pressed to show scripture that gives evidence that Jesus returns twice or that the rapture will take place before the second coming.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Many certainly do.

I acknowledged that many have been taught a poor [i.e. INCORRECT] version of "pre-trib"... A version which states that "our Rapture" event is being referred to in Jesus' Olivet Discourse... but the fact is that "our Rapture" event was NOT the Subject of Jesus' Olivet Discourse and cannot be found ANYWHERE in His Olivet Discourse.

Again, their Q of Him in v.3 was BASED ON what He had ALREADY spoken to them about in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (when the "angels" will REAP... [and will be said to the angels] "collect ye FIRST the TARES"... The Wheat and the Tares still growing together, planted on the earth, ALIVE--This does not pertain to either "our Rapture" NOR a "resurrection [from the DEAD]," see...)

Jesus told of the coming of the Son of Man 'after the tribulation' and further describes this time as being like the days of Noah. He compares His coming to the coming of a thief, and warned His disciples to watch.

I already addressed that point earlier in this thread (if memory serves and it was in fact THIS thread, lol)

He also said one shall be taken and the other left. I've heard pre-tribbers use these scriptures to refer to the pre-trib rapture,

Yea, the POORLY-TAUGHT ones use these scriptures (to refer to it)... but they are not correct.

Where it says, "AND THEY KNEW NOT UNTIL the flood came and TOOK them all away"... it is not referring to NOAH (who KNEW ahead, and prepared the ark based on that knowledge).

The ones "taken" were / are "taken away in judgment" JUST AS IN NOAH'S DAY. This is not a "rapture" passage. = )



[the point being conveyed by this passage is that they DISREGARDED God's word VIA NOAH, and thus were taken away in the flood judgment; Noah and crew are a picture of those who will be protected THROUGH the trib years (whereas "Enoch" [ONE MAN]--interesting name-meaning, btw--is a picture or type of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [ONE BODY] caught up well-prior to the flood judgment coming on the earth)]

while the passage is clear that they refer to the time of the coming of the Son of man, which Christ explicitly places after the tribulation in Matthew 24.

... right... this passage is about the time-slot of His Second Coming to the earth (Rev19);

no one is being "harpagēsometha'd" (i.e. "SNATCHED") in this passage.

This is about those being "gathered together" (ONE BY ONE) which the OT had prophesied about (which will occur at the END OF / AFTER the trib yrs... at the "GREAT" trumpet... and they'll be gathered to ONE PLACE UPON THE EARTH [Not "to the MEETING OF THE LORD IN THE AIR" which is a distinct thing... a distinct trumpet... and distinct location and purpose... a distinct MANNER ["AS ONE" rather than "ONE BY ONE"], etc etc...).




At the time that Jesus spoke His Olivet Discourse, He had not yet spoken to them ANYTHING regarding or relating to "rapture [in the air]"

 

[presidente]

I acknowledged that many have been taught a poor [i.e. INCORRECT] version of "pre-trib"... A version which states that "our Rapture" event is being referred to in Jesus' Olivet Discourse... but the fact is that "our Rapture" event was NOT the Subject of Jesus' Olivet Discourse and cannot be found ANYWHERE in His Olivet Discourse.

I agree with that, but I cannot see it anywhere else in scripture either. What I don't get is why you are still pretrib. I didn't see a case for it in the OT passage you mentioned earlier either.

Consider the similarities between Matthew 24 and II Thessalonians 2.

Matthew 24 II Thes. 2
-the love of many shall grow cold------> the falling away
-abomination of desolation stand------> the man of sin standing in the temple of God
in the holy place declaring himself that he is god
-the coming of the Son of man and-----> the coming of the Lord and
the gathering of the elect our gathering unto Him

Again, their Q of Him in v.3 was BASED ON what He had ALREADY spoken to them about in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (when the "angels" will REAP... [and will be said to the angels] "collect ye FIRST the TARES"... The Wheat and the Tares still growing together, planted on the earth, ALIVE--This does not pertain to either "our Rapture" NOR a "resurrection [from the DEAD]," see...)

How do you get Jesus coming back twice or a rapture before the tribulation out of any of this? How do you get an extra resurrection event before the first resurrection out of any of this?

There will still be people here before the tribulation, so the wicked will not be reaped beforehand.

Revelation associates harvest in this context with blood.

Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

In II Thessalonians 1 shows us that when Jesus comes back executing vengeance on them that believe not, that the church will receive rest from it's tribulation and the will be glorified in the saints. Pre-trib has the saints resurrected, then wrath poured on the unbelievers... oh then there are some saints again. And those saints if they died get to be in the first resurrection. But wait... there was a resurrection before the first resurrection at the rapture. I just don't see the appeal to such a messy convoluted eschatology.

[the point being conveyed by this passage is that they DISREGARDED God's word VIA NOAH, and thus were taken away in the flood judgment; Noah and crew are a picture of those who will be protected THROUGH the trib years (whereas "Enoch" [ONE MAN]--interesting name-meaning, btw--is a picture or type of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [ONE BODY] caught up well-prior to the flood judgment coming on the earth)]

Now show me some scripture that shows that the rapture takes place ___before__ the tribulation. I've asked you for that previously.

no one is being "harpagēsometha'd" (i.e. "SNATCHED") in this passage.

Both Matthew 24 and II Thessalonians 2:1 refer to the coming of the Son of man/the Lord and the gathering. Do you agree with me that this gathering unto the Lord spoken of in II Thessalonians is the rapture?

Matthew 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (NKJV)

Who does the Bible refer to as the elect? We can see that first century Christians are called the 'elect'.

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

II John 1

1 The Elder,
To the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all those who have known the truth,


You don't have any scripture at all that teaches that Jesus is returning for the saints twice, or that the rapture is before the tribulation. II Thessalonians 2 shows us that the church is here suffering tribulation when Jesus comes and gives the church rest.

I could argue for three raptures and argue that the third one occurs after the giant green zipper appears in the sky and Gabriel unzips it. I could say, "This verse occurs before the zipping of the giant green zipper' and 'That verse occurs after the great green zipping.' But there is no scripture that teaches three second comings or the appearance of the giant green zipper, just as you have no scripture to support a pretribulational rapture or an extra return of Christ.

This is about those being "gathered together" (ONE BY ONE) which the OT had prophesied about (which will occur at the END OF / AFTER the trib yrs... at the "GREAT" trumpet... and they'll be gathered to ONE PLACE UPON THE EARTH [Not "to the MEETING OF THE LORD IN THE AIR" which is a distinct thing... a distinct trumpet... and distinct location and purpose... a distinct MANNER ["AS ONE" rather than "ONE BY ONE"], etc etc...).

I read the passage, and I dont' see how you try to make a correlation there. The Bible already tells of a gathering at the coming of the Lord, the rapture event spoken of in I Thessalonians 2:1.

At the time that Jesus spoke His Olivet Discourse, He had not yet spoken to them ANYTHING regarding or relating to "rapture [in the air]"

We do not know that, but what we do know is that He spoke to His own disciples about the coming of the Son of Man, taught them to be prepared for it. He told them of the gathering of the elect that would occur at His coming. There are parallels between Matthew 24.

You can make up an addition return of Christ with no scripture whatsover to back it up, then argue that some verses about the second coming apply to the additional return you made up and other verses refer to the one the Bible actually teaches about, but that is lousy hermeneutics.

 

[presidente]

Pretribbers do not have great difficulty when pressed to show scripture that gives evidence that Jesus returns twice or that the rapture will take place before the second coming.

Jesus returns to the clouds at the Rapture of the Church (1 Thess 4:17) and then returns to the earth seven years later (the Second Coming to earth) to resurrect the Tribulation Saints (Rev 20:4) and this is not a rapture.

So are you saying if Jesus returns to the clouds, He is somehow unable to return to the earth again after rapturing the saints? Do you think clouds serve as some kind of block to prevent that?

Notice what the Bible teaches about the coming of the Son of Man AFTER the tribulation.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

As a pretribber, don't you believe that Jesus will return to earth after the tribulation. You don't believe the clouds will stop Him from descending to the earth, then do you? Why would you think the clouds stop Jesus from returning to earth in another passage that talks about the return of Christ? How is the reference to clouds somehow evidence that Christ does not return. That doesn't make any sense.

Let's look at verse 31 again
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

II Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,


So notice the use of the word 'gather' in reference to the coming of the Son of man in Matthew 24 and the use of the word 'gathering in II Thessalonians 2 in reference to the coming of the Lord. Don't you agree that the gathering in II Thessalonians 2:1 is the rapture? Why wouldn't the gathering in Matthew 24:31 also refer to the rapture?

So now we all know that...

Pretribbers do not have great difficulty when pressed to show scripture that gives evidence that Jesus returns twice or that the rapture will take place before the second coming.

I agree that many pretribbers quote verses that they think are evidence for such things, but that aren't really. Where does the verse you quoted say anything about Jesus returning twice? Why would clouds keep Jesus from coming all the way down? Why would catching the saints up in the clouds keep Jesus from coming back with them? That isn't any kind of Biblical evidence that the rapture is pretrib at all. It's just the pretribbers are so programmed with certain scenarios that they read those ideas into verses that do not mention those ideas. I Thessalonians 4 does not say that the raptured saints go for the clouds to heaven for seven years. That is just something so many pretribbers have been taught and they read the idea into those verses. I'm talking about the actual evidence in the scriptures themselves, not the scenarios in men's minds as they read them.