Conclusion From Beware the Pseudo-Rapture Doctrine 4
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I have yet to see an entrenched pretibber put forth a scripturally-based argument.
All I see is butchery of scripture, circular reasoning & a heavy reliance on extra-biblical tradition.
2nd coming resurrection-believers come up short in your view because we are not assuming pretrib to be true as you are.
You expect pretrib to be the starting point, the standard we must use. It is not.
I have yet to see an entrenched pretibber put forth a scripturally-based case.
All I see is butchery of scripture, circular reasoning & a heavy reliance on extra-biblical tradition.
All I see is butchery of scripture, circular reasoning & a heavy reliance on extra-biblical tradition.
2nd coming resurrection-believers come up short in your view because we are not assuming pretrib to be true as you are.
You expect pretrib to be the starting point, the standard we must use. It is not.
I have yet to see an entrenched pretibber put forth a scripturally-based case.
All I see is butchery of scripture, circular reasoning & a heavy reliance on extra-biblical tradition.
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The elders that John spoke with in heaven at least 1900 years BEFORE the rapture? Is that what you mean?
If you have specific verses in these passages that you think somehow support pre-trib quote them and explain how. A vague challenge to pretribbers to explain the identity or orogin of the 24 elders is not evidence that Jesus comes back an extra time that is not laid out in scripture.
If you have specific verses in these passages that you think somehow support pre-trib quote them and explain how. A vague challenge to pretribbers to explain the identity or orogin of the 24 elders is not evidence that Jesus comes back an extra time that is not laid out in scripture.
Rom 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from G1537 the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from G1537 the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Game set match bro. Whether you can wrap your head around that or not.
Hint: ALL trib saints DIE before they are resurrected. All OT saints are ALREADY DEAD then are resurrected. Living believers and Israelites DO NOT GET RAPTURED at the SC.....they go on to populate planet earth.
ONLY the Church (those alive at the pre-trib rapture event) gets translated while still in their mortal bodies!
For the simple reason that only the Church is Spirit indwelt.
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from G1537 the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from G1537 the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Game set match bro. Whether you can wrap your head around that or not.
Hint: ALL trib saints DIE before they are resurrected. All OT saints are ALREADY DEAD then are resurrected. Living believers and Israelites DO NOT GET RAPTURED at the SC.....they go on to populate planet earth.
ONLY the Church (those alive at the pre-trib rapture event) gets translated while still in their mortal bodies!
For the simple reason that only the Church is Spirit indwelt.
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If one recognizes the distinction, there is still no evidence FROM THE BIBLE for a pretrib rapture of the church.
Pretribbers take some verses about the Lord's coming and say 'This refers to the pretrib rapture' and take others and say 'This refers to the second coming.' But they do not present proof that there are two comings of Christ or that the rapture happens seven years before Jesus returns. In fact, the rapture passage, I Thessalonians 4, sets the rapture at Jesus' coming, not seven years before His coming. And in II Thessalonians 2, the lawless one is destroyed at the brightness of His coming.
Pretribbers take some verses about the Lord's coming and say 'This refers to the pretrib rapture' and take others and say 'This refers to the second coming.' But they do not present proof that there are two comings of Christ or that the rapture happens seven years before Jesus returns. In fact, the rapture passage, I Thessalonians 4, sets the rapture at Jesus' coming, not seven years before His coming. And in II Thessalonians 2, the lawless one is destroyed at the brightness of His coming.
For the simple reason that only the Church is Spirit indwelt. [/QUOTE]
You offered no scriptural evidence at all for a pretrib rapture. You might has well have said, "Christians may not eat chocolate after 2 PM and quoted the same verse." The verse does not say that the rapture is pretrib.
Also, in the context, Paul is talking about death and life in regard to what is working in our members, in our bodies, as he transitions to the issue of the resurrection.
I believe in the rapture of the church, in they that are Christ's who do not 'sleep' being transformed. The issue here is your position that the rapture of the dead in Christ and 'we which are alive and remain' occurs seven years before the 'first resurrection.' There is nothing in that verse that sets the transformation of Jesus' body seven years before it occurs.
The fact that pre-tribbers have to resort to the highly allegorical interpretation of John being told to 'come up hither' as some kind of allegory for the rapture shows how weak the theory is. If you will notice, there are trumpets AFTER this one mentioned in Revelation, and the transformation happens 'at the last trump'.
My question for you is why you are pre-trib? You aren't showing a clear case for it from scripture. You are saying this verse is about a pre-trib event, but with no evidence that it is pretrib, except for this wild allegorical interpretation that doesn't fit.
Why not just let go of pre-trib? Why not stop treating the pretrib scenario as if it were holy and axiomatically true like scripture, and look at what the Bible actually teaches about the end times?
My question for you is why you are pre-trib? You aren't showing a clear case for it from scripture. You are saying this verse is about a pre-trib event, but with no evidence that it is pretrib, except for this wild allegorical interpretation that doesn't fit.
Why not just let go of pre-trib? Why not stop treating the pretrib scenario as if it were holy and axiomatically true like scripture, and look at what the Bible actually teaches about the end times?
Do us a favor Presidente. "Show us the verse" that says Ruth is a type of the gentile Church of Jesus Christ.
Despite there being none whatsoever, it is nevertheless axiomatic that this is true and an intentional allegorical type. Nobody can deny this.
You and Runningman seem to have the same problem. Tragic. And seemingly without remedy.
Despite there being none whatsoever, it is nevertheless axiomatic that this is true and an intentional allegorical type. Nobody can deny this.
You and Runningman seem to have the same problem. Tragic. And seemingly without remedy.
We are discussing the Rapture, and that happens at the beginning of the Book of Revelation.
Revelation 4:1
“After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.”
1 Thessalonians 4:16
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:”
Revelation 4:1
“After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.”
1 Thessalonians 4:16
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:”