Do you observe the Sabbath?

[TMS]

How were the New Covenant promises better?
Because God made them, and they guaranteed successful obedience through His strength alone. "I will put my laws into their mind ... I will be to them a God ... I will be merciful to their unrighteousness and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." Hebrews 8:10-12.

How was the New Covenant ratified? In the same manner that the Old was confirmed - by the shedding of blood. But instead of an ox having to shed its blood, the sinless Son of God would provide His blood.

"Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well-pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ." Hebrews 13:20, 21.

What a contrast to the weak promises of the flesh made by Israel at Sinai. Instead of the people's "we will do," God's New Covenant promise is to "make you perfect in every good work ... working in you." It is no longer human effort. It is not so much you working, but Him "working in you." And how is this power made available? "Through the blood of the everlasting covenant." Because of what Jesus did on the cross.

 

[TMS]

Are we under the law or under grace?

We are under the law because the law convicts us of sin and sin lead to death....

Can anyone in this world free themselves from death? No we are all slaves to sin and death.... BUT

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

We can be under grace if we believe and trust in Jesus.
We are free from the conviction of the law by the blood and mercy of Jesus.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

We are saved by Grace through faith which frees us from the laws condemnation. But the law is still the standard of sin and is still revealing our sin. Jesus may be covering those sins with His blood but that does not give us an excuse to keep on sinning.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

 

[mailmandan]

We are under the law because the law convicts us of sin and sin lead to death....

Can anyone in this world free themselves from death? No we are all slaves to sin and death.... BUT

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

We can be under grace if we believe and trust in Jesus.
We are free from the conviction of the law by the blood and mercy of Jesus.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

We are saved by Grace through faith which frees us from the laws condemnation. But the law is still the standard of sin and is still revealing our sin. Jesus may be covering those sins with His blood but that does not give us an excuse to keep on sinning.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Believers are not under law, but are under grace. (Romans 6:14) What law was Paul serving in Romans 7:25? What law are you serving?

We establish or uphold the law by putting our faith in the One who fulfilled all the righteous requirements of the law on our behalf and who offers us His perfect righteousness as a free gift. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9) Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. (Romans 10:4)

 

[TMS]

Believers are not under law, but are under grace. (Romans 6:14) What law was Paul serving in Romans 7:25? What law are you serving?

We establish or uphold the law by putting our faith in the One who fulfilled all the righteous requirements of the law on our behalf and who offers us His perfect righteousness as a free gift. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9) Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. (Romans 10:4)

We are given His perfect righteousness as a gift.. So is it okay for me to steal and kill and take Gods name in vain because of the free gift.
I agree that we are free from the law by grace. But do you see the that the law is perfect and holy and good, grace is not a licence to sin freely.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The law points out our sin and without Christ we are dead in sin. But Jesus freed us from sin (freed us from the laws convictions).
The free gift of grace is ours by faith, Praise God.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin (transgress the law), because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

After reading this is it okay to transgress the law willfully?

 

[TMS]

Believers are not under law, but are under grace. (Romans 6:14) What law was Paul serving in Romans 7:25? What law are you serving?

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
With the mind he was serving the law of God, With the flesh the law of sin.
Because i believe and am not under law can i covert my neigbours belongings?

 

[mailmandan]

We are given His perfect righteousness as a gift.. So is it okay for me to steal and kill and take Gods name in vain because of the free gift.
I agree that we are free from the law by grace. But do you see the that the law is perfect and holy and good, grace is not a licence to sin freely.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The law points out our sin and without Christ we are dead in sin. But Jesus freed us from sin (freed us from the laws convictions).
The free gift of grace is ours by faith, Praise God.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin (transgress the law), because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

After reading this is it okay to transgress the law willfully?

Why does this straw man argument always come up?

 

[gb9]

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
With the mind he was serving the law of God, With the flesh the law of sin.
Because i believe and am not under law can i covert my neigbours belongings?

if you are a gentile, you are and never were under the Law of Moses.

 

[Cameron143]

Why does this straw man argument always come up?

A good question. I think the answer is found in the tenacity of straw. He started out with high hopes and lent himself to housing material. Either through poor construction or weakness, he was blown down after a few huffs and puffs. After considerable counseling, he struck out again to find his niche.
Turns out he was better at being a straw man than house. Many people who would never consider him valuable in housing circles have placed him in high esteem in debate circles.
Now you know his history.

 

[TMS]

Why does this straw man argument always come up?

You haven't blown it over...
I'll ask again....
We both agree with righteousness by faith, a gift of Christ's perfect character to those that believe.

Because Christ lived the law perfectly and is now able to bestow the grace on us which frees us from the penalty of the law, should we continue to transgress the law?

Yes or no.... the strawman is still standing...

 

[TMS]

if you are a gentile, you are and never were under the Law of Moses.

We are all one in Christ..
God isn't biased to any blood line, all can be part of His family.
We are grafted into the root of Abraham so we are Jews by adoption.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

As adopted Jews we should live like Gods children.

I've shown that the 10 commandments are not the old covenant.. and that the cerimonial laws are different to the 10 commandments, but people don't want to hear.

 

[TMS]

if you are a gentile, you are and never were under the Law of Moses.

The law of moses is the first 5 books of the bible..
To disregard everything in the first 5 books is like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

[mailmandan]

You haven't blown it over...
I'll ask again....
We both agree with righteousness by faith, a gift of Christ's perfect character to those that believe.

Because Christ lived the law perfectly and is now able to bestow the grace on us which frees us from the penalty of the law, should we continue to transgress the law?

Yes or no.... the strawman is still standing...

We are not under the law of Moses, so it's not about transgressing the law or sinning all we want. That is the straw man argument. Since the old covenant has been made obsolete, does this leave us with no moral direction? Absolutely not. God made the old covenant obsolete to legally put into place the new covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:6-13) The life of discipleship flows out of the new command, to love one another as He loved us (John 13:34), and the apostle Paul says that by bearing one another's burdens, we fulfill "law of Christ." (Galatians 6:2) Love fulfills the law (Romans 13:8-10) and out of this single command comes other commands, including references for the moral aspect of 9 of the 10 commandments which are reiterated under the new covenant, yet the command to keep the sabbath day is not binding on Christians under the new covenant.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7; James 5:12
4. Keep the sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3

In regards to Romans 6:16, there are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants of sin unto death, or servants of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation, (Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 1:16) we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become servants/slaves to righteousness."

 

[mailmandan]

I've shown that the 10 commandments are not the old covenant.. and that the cerimonial laws are different to the 10 commandments, but people don't want to hear.

The 10 commandments are the core of the old covenant. (Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13) It sounds to me like your bias for your argument mainly revolves around your belief that keeping the sabbath day is still binding today and that the body of Christ must keep the sabbath day. Why don't you show me in the New Testament where the body of Christ is commanded to keep the sabbath day.

You apparently believe that the body of Christ must keep the sabbath day, yet sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel (Exodus 16:23, 29; 31:12-18; 35:1-3; Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3, 32; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Amos 8:5; Nehemiah 10:31) that is not binding on Christians under the new covenant.

*Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

 

[mailmandan]

Whenever people today set out to keep the sabbath day, are they truly "keeping the sabbath?" To "keep the sabbath" as it was required in the Old Testament under the old covenant of law involved compliance with specific regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.

If sabbath day observances are still required today, then so would the burnt offerings which went along with them (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13). So no kindling a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath. (Exodus 35:3) Every man must remain in his place on the sabbath. (Exodus 16:29) No trading. (Amos 8:5) No marketing. (Nehemiah 10:31; 13:15,19)

*These regulations were commanded by God to Israel. (Exodus 35:1-3)

If keeping the sabbath day is still in affect today, then why dom't sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD has commanded? How can someone keep a certain law when he only keeps part of it? If the sabbath day laws were still in effect today, then according to Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36, anyone who profaned the sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people.

Now who is going to enforce that? The Jewish synagogue? The Seventh day Adventist church or perhaps the government? Since we do not live under a theocratic state as ancient Israel did under the old covenant of law, no sabbatarian today can live consistently under these Mosaic regulations.

 

[TMS]

If sabbath day observances are still required today, then so would the burnt offerings which went along with them

That is not true..
The Sabbath was made for man before sin.
The offerings were to atone for sin.

Types and shadows all pointed to the plan of salvation achived by Jesus.. they were introduced to help people and Israel to look forward in hope and understand salvation.

After Jesus fulfilled these plans we look back to Jesus as our hope and trust in what He did.
Faith.....

But the sabbath was given to man at creation before sin. It was not a type or shadow.

 

[gb9]

the Sabbath was given to Moses at Sinai, along with the rest of the Old Covenant.

as hard as you guys try, you cannot extract the Sabbath from the Law of Moses and make it stand on it's own.

 

[TMS]

"The Westminster Confession of Faith (1646) divides the Mosaic laws into three categories: moral, civil, and ceremonial."

And i also acknowlegde the laws of nature.

Even Jews made distictions in the laws.

Today i don't believe the civil, or the ceremonial laws are required by God to be kept.

The civil laws because the national, political, civil environment is not the same, and the cerimonial because Jesus fulfilled them...
But the moral laws do not change. We are still required to keep them.
Jesus said "go and sin no more".
Mat 19:17 ....: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

You will argue that the Sabbath commandment is not a moral law.
People have no issue with 9 of the 10 commandments but say the 4th commandment is not for today.
God thought it was good for mankind before sin. How much more is it a good thing today.

 

[TMS]

the Old Covenant

What was the old covenant..?
An agreement on both sides.
Gods side... keep the law and I'll bless you.
Israels side... all that you said we will do.

They failed before moses even got down from the mountain.

Was the covanant faulty because of God. Bad promises on Gods side? No God is perfect..

The fault was Israels failure to realize there need, failure to appeciate there weakness, and failure to trust and rely on Gods strength.

The laws were not faulty.
God gave them Himself and God is perfect.

The new covenant is better because it is built on the Christ writting the law on our hearts and minds.

 

[TMS]

God asked Moses to present His offer to the people. Here are all the elements of a true covenant. Conditions and promises are laid down for both sides. If the children of Israel accept God's proposal, a covenant will be established. How did they respond to the divine offer? "And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded him. And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord." Exodus 19:7, 8.

The Ten Commandments very much part of the agreement. The people promised to keep that law, and God promised to bless them in return. The crucial weakness in the whole arrangement revolved around the way Israel promised. There was no suggestion that they could not fully conform to every requirement of God. Neither was there any application for divine assistance. "We can do it," they insisted. Here is a perfect example of leaning on the flesh and trusting human strength. The words are filled with self-confidence. "All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient."

Hebrews 8:8. He said, "Because they continued not in my covenant ... I regarded them not." Verse 9. The blame is placed squarely upon the human side of the mutual pact. Thus, we can see exactly why Paul wrote as he did about this Old Covenant in Hebrews 8. It did gender to bondage, it proved faulty, had poor promises, and vanished away - all because the people failed to obey their part of the agreement. Putting all these things together we can see why a new covenant was desperately needed, which would have better promises.

 

[TMS]

"Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well-pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ." Hebrews 13:20, 21.

The new covenant

Jer_31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Heb_8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

When Jerimiah talked about the law being put in our heart.. Which law?