Government and Christian (Romans 13)

[Komentaja]

Should Christians be PROTESTING the government or rising up against it? I see the government worldwide is always terrible, but the Bible seems to be saying we shouldn't rise up against it:

Romans 13:2
Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

I don't know if there is a line to be drawn in the sand in the case of Nazi Germany, I don't see a line drawn in the New Testament.....

I for sure don't want judgment on myself so I would not rise up against the government, what about you? I ask because I see Christians be very political at times even taking to the streets to protest.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Should Christians be PROTESTING the government or rising up against it? I see the government worldwide is always terrible, but the Bible seems to be saying we shouldn't rise up against it:

Romans 13:2
Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

I don't know if there is a line to be drawn in the sand in the case of Nazi Germany, I don't see a line drawn in the New Testament.....

I for sure don't want judgment on myself so I would not rise up against the government, what about you? I ask because I see Christians be very political at times even taking to the streets to protest.

The first Christians didn't draw any lines in the sand like we see today. They were happy going to their death as a testimony to their Lord; and trusting in a better home.

 

[JaumeJ]

Why not consider when Paul was arrested and taken before the High Priest of that year. Paul openly opposed what he had to say until he was made awware that the man ws the High Priest.

He immediately apologized for his own ignorance of the identity of his interrogator, for in Israel, a theocracy, the law stated not to counter the High Priest.

From this I tend to think it would have been fine to oppose the Romans or the King but never the Priesthood..... let me know

 

[JaumeJ]

Why not consider when Paul was arrested and taken before the High Priest of that year. Paul openly opposed what he had to say until he was made awware that the man ws the High Priest.

He immediately apologized for his own ignorance of the identity of his interrogator, for in Israel, a theocracy, the law stated not to counter the High Priest.

From this I tend to think it would have been fine to oppose the Romans or the King but never the Priesthood..... let me know

This reminds me of the Teacher's saying, "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's."

 

[Webers.Home]

.
Governance doesn't stop with the law of the land, rather, the chain of
command reaches even unto Heaven.

For example the midwives in the book of Exodus defied Pharaoh and saved
the Jews' baby boys alive. What they did was illegal, but God rewarded them
for doing so.

• Matt 22:21 . . Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's;
and unto God the things that are God's.

Caesar and God are both in authority over us but with God of course having
the final word as the supreme being.

• Acts 5:29 . .We ought to obey God rather than men.
_

 

[Komentaja]

The first Christians didn't draw any lines in the sand like we see today. They were happy going to their death as a testimony to their Lord; and trusting in a better home.

You are right, it seems what they would of done is just help the people suffering during the war. Do their duty as Christians

 

[SomeDisciple]

Why not consider when Paul was arrested and taken before the High Priest of that year. Paul openly opposed what he had to say until he was made awware that the man ws the High Priest.

He immediately apologized for his own ignorance of the identity of his interrogator, for in Israel, a theocracy, the law stated not to counter the High Priest.

From this I tend to think it would have been fine to oppose the Romans or the King but never the Priesthood..... let me know

So, I think the issue is that he called the high-priest "whitewashed wall" and said God was going to smite him. While Paul was technically correct, it came off as a personal attack rather than him urging the him to repent. Paul's later protests are a little more effective "is it lawful for you to flog a Roman who is uncondemned?".

A lot of it has to do with the spirit in you- are you speaking the truth in love, or using God to cloak a rebellious attitude?

 

[Aaron56]

The general Christian-church culture (and myths) of the US clouds our understanding when we read Romans 13 from the perspective of an American: saying that national governmental powers are necessarily good people for God's purpose.

I doubt few of us, however, would argue that the government over a North Korean, an Iranian, or a Chinese believer is actually "a terror to evil works" and "God’s minister to you for good".

God can establish the basest of men to rule over people, evil men to rule over people, and corrupt men to rule over people because of the corruption of their own hearts. God can allow the people to choose their own leaders apart from Him (motions broadly at a democratic republic) as judgment upon themselves.

This portion of scripture actually deals with leadership among the saints. Evidence of this can be found in the epistles where the apostles command the saints to do various things in accordance with God's plan, Paul being one of them. And instruction concerning care with raising any issues about the character of elders.

If we lived today, and Timothy walked through our door having been sent by Paul to establish elders in our midst, we'd first wonder who gave him the right to tell us who our elders are and we'd ask for his credentials from a seminary school, how many books he's published and how many followers he has on Youtube.

 

[Webers.Home]

.
Here's another example of the divine chain of command overruling an
earthly subordinate.

• Matt 2:7-8 . .Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men,
inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared. And he sent them to
Bethlehem, and said: Go and search diligently for the young child; and when
ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him
also.

• Matt 2:12 . . And being warned of God in a dream that they should not
return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.

The wise men risked prison, or worse, but what were they to do when their
orders came straight from the top?
_

 

[SomeDisciple]

Should Christians be PROTESTING the government or rising up against it? I see the government worldwide is always terrible, but the Bible seems to be saying we shouldn't rise up against it:

Romans 13:2
Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

I don't know if there is a line to be drawn in the sand in the case of Nazi Germany, I don't see a line drawn in the New Testament.....

I for sure don't want judgment on myself so I would not rise up against the government, what about you? I ask because I see Christians be very political at times even taking to the streets to protest.

This topic can get into complex scenarios, but it is generally appropriate to subject yourself to those in positions of authority over you. As the Bible accounts, sometimes people in positions of authority overreach, and/or do things that are downright wicked and each scenario calls for diligent prayer. "Protest" is not bad, it is simply saying "this is wrong". Rioting and rebellion is different- we should not be part of riot or rebellion any more than we should comply with human government coercion to sin against God.

 

[Cameron143]

In a democracy, the people are not subject to leaders; they are subject to us. They are the ones who have rebelled and not fulfilled the duties assigned to them by statute.
In the United States Constitution there are remedies for such cases. The last resolve is to overthrow an unjust government. Our founding fathers would have done so long ago.

 

[Dino246]

In a democracy, the people are not subject to leaders; they are subject to us. They are the ones who have rebelled and not fulfilled the duties assigned to them by statute.
In the United States Constitution there are remedies for such cases. The last resolve is to overthrow an unjust government. Our founding fathers would have done so long ago.

That's all well and good for Americans. However, this is an international forum, and there are Christians under far less "tolerable" government systems.

 

[Gojira]

In America, the PEOPLE ultimately are the authority. The people in power are loaned OUR power temporarily. They serve US, not vice versa. It IS different in the United States.

If a cop pulls me over, I will comply. If I am arrested, I will comply. I will not run red lights or shoplift from the grocery store. But, when my governmental servants transgress their boundaries, I have a right (and, with the 2nd amendment) the power to stand up against it.

We misread Romans 13 and Titus -- in my opinion. The government is there for good, and therefore should be obeyed. But... what happens when government is bad?

I already know the arguments against this that are coming. I've had plenty of those conversations here. I'm not going to waste too much time here re-re-re-arguing my points. Choose to accept this concept presented here or don't. But, whichever you choose will have consequences.

Choose the politics, of the politics will choose you. Or, as G. K. Chesterton said, war is not the best way of settling differences, but it is the only way to prevent them from being settled for you.

We know what Solomon wrote about war and peace, and what Jesus said about his disciples, at one point, carrying swords. There is balance here. We are not to be in constant high alert for battle, but we are also not to be doormats.

 

[Aaron56]

cut

 

[SomeDisciple]

The general Christian-church culture (and myths) of the US clouds our understanding when we read Romans 13 from the perspective of an American: saying that national governmental powers are necessarily good people for God's purpose.

Or maybe, unlike the satanic-globalists, we actually get our beliefs from the bible, where it says

...And He made from one man every nation of men, to dwell upon all the face of the earth, having determined the appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27to seek God, if perhaps indeed they might palpate for Him, and might find Him. And indeed, He is not far from each one of us.

Granted they are not necessarily "good people" but they are intended for our good.

I doubt few of us, however, would argue that the government over a North Korean, an Iranian, or a Chinese believer is actually "a terror to evil works" and "God’s minister to you for good".

They are a terror to some evil works... and not so much to others. They're not doing a great job, but nether did many of Israel's anointed kings.

This portion of scripture actually deals with leadership among the saints

But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not carry the sword in vain. He is God’s servant, an agent of retribution to the wrongdoer.

Did Paul say he was given the ministry of RETRIBUTION or the ministry of RECONCILIATION?

 

[Cameron143]

That's all well and good for Americans. However, this is an international forum, and there are Christians under far less "tolerable" government systems.

Sure. I don't mean to dismiss others who are in difficult situations. There just seems to be the idea developing that to do anything against those in public office is forbidden in the bible.
I believe as Christians we have a duty to help all people, particularly those of the faith. But if we don't get our own house in order, how will we be able to help others?

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Should Christians be PROTESTING the government or rising up against it? I see the government worldwide is always terrible, but the Bible seems to be saying we shouldn't rise up against it:

Romans 13:2
Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

The simple question is: WHEN (as happened in Germany) the government tells you to MURDER YOUR NEIGHBOR, do you obey that directive.

When, in the U.S, the Government tells you that MURDERING YOUR UNBORN BABY is a GOOD THING, praiseworthy, do you go ahead and Murder your baby??

When in the U.S, the Government tells you that a Homosexual MARRIAGE is a valid union between two people of the same sex, do you SUPPORT that proclamation??

Your understanding of the Bible should be a guide. If you're unfamiliar with what the Bible says, you're "Fair game" for deception. the Bible has more than ONE VERSE - there's also a context.

 

[Aaron56]

Or maybe, unlike the satanic-globalists, we actually get our beliefs from the bible, where it says

...And He made from one man every nation of men, to dwell upon all the face of the earth, having determined the appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27to seek God, if perhaps indeed they might palpate for Him, and might find Him. And indeed, He is not far from each one of us.

Granted they are not necessarily "good people" but they are intended for our good.


They are a terror to some evil works... and not so much to others. They're not doing a great job, but nether did many of Israel's anointed kings.



But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not carry the sword in vain. He is God’s servant, an agent of retribution to the wrongdoer.

Did Paul say he was given the ministry of RETRIBUTION or the ministry of RECONCILIATION?

Can you understand how turning someone over to Satan for the destruction of their flesh can be beneficial to someone?
Or how expelling an immoral brother from the church can actually redeem their soul?
Or how "coming with a whip" was an available stance the apostle Paul could have chosen when bringing correction to the church?
Can you see love in all of these instances?

 

[Aaron56]

The simple question is: WHEN (as happened in Germany) the government tells you to MURDER YOUR NEIGHBOR, do you obey that directive.

When, in the U.S, the Government tells you that MURDERING YOUR UNBORN BABY is a GOOD THING, praiseworthy, do you go ahead and Murder your baby??

When in the U.S, the Government tells you that a Homosexual MARRIAGE is a valid union between two people of the same sex, do you SUPPORT that proclamation??

Your understanding of the Bible should be a guide. If you're unfamiliar with what the Bible says, you're "Fair game" for deception. the Bible has more than ONE VERSE - there's also a context.

A court in New York just erected a golden statue of the goddess of abortion on its mantel.

https://www.al.com/politics/2023/01...h-bader-ginsberg-a-satanic-golden-medusa.html

 

[SomeDisciple]

Can you see love in all of these instances?

Yes. Sometimes the only way to reconcile with someone is to leave them to their own devices for a while.

Do you pay taxes to your church? How much do they take?