Doctrine of Unconditional Election

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#4,781
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#4,781
rogerg said:
Question: do you think they can repent if they are not of the elect? And if they are of the elect, then are they saved because
they are of the nation of Israel or because they are of the elect? Wouldn't it have to be one or the other?
Click to expand...

They are one and the same. Jacob/Israel (renamed by God to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel - Gen 32:28) Jacob/Israel represents all of God's elect (Rom 9:11), who are made up of all kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation (Rev 5:9).

The natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, cannot repent of breaking one of God's spiritual laws, that he thinks to be foolishness.

Backsliding (spiritual) Israel, has lost their fellowship with God, ( but not their eternal inheritance), because of their sins. They are still God's people, but are still practising their sinful nature, until they repent. You and I are in the same situation as they are when we commit a sin, until we repent of that sin. The only difference in us is that God has not blinded some of our eyes from seeing the truth.

Instruction by the remnant of the household of Israel, teaching the lost sheep of the house of Israel, prayfully, can bring them to repentance.
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#4,782
Jul 13, 2021
3,697
578
113
#4,782
ForestGreenCook said:
Backsliding (spiritual) Israel, has lost their fellowship with God, ( but not their eternal inheritance), because of their sins. They are still God's people, but are still practising their sinful nature, until they repent. You and I are in the same situation as they are when we commit a sin, until we repent of that sin. The only difference in us is that God has not blinded some of our eyes from seeing the truth.
Click to expand...
Sorry, trying to understand so please bear with me. How do you define "spiritual Israel", other than it consisting of the elect - those whom God had chosen individually to salvation? We are clearly informed in Romans that Abraham's children by the flesh (his physical descendants) are not the children of God and if they are not the children of God, then physical Israel cannot be the nation of God, so it seems to me the physical Jews, because they are Jews, has no bearing with God regarding salvation.
Have to leave for a family gathering but will reply when I return - thanks.

[Rom 9:6-8 KJV]
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
 
Beckie

Beckie

Well-known member
#4,783
Feb 15, 2022
2,516
939
113
#4,783
ThereRoseaLamb said:
Yes, back from the balloon. I should have been clearer in my answer perhaps. I believe in predestination, that God knows who will be saved. Of course, God knows all. What I do not believe is that God created some to be elected and some to be damned. I do not believe that a person cannot respond to the Gospel if they are not "elected". I do not believe in reading the Bible that that is Gods character.
Click to expand...
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
I dont think i made myself clear in a post back a ways .. I was dispensational for the first 40 or so years of my life i am now 76 and look to see what is Written not what is 'written about'
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#4,784
Jan 13, 2016
17,131
3,689
113
#4,784
rogerg said:
I don't understand this one either. My point was that grace and salvation are not works, period, and therefore,
cannot be invoked by a person. A gift can only be given to someone - especially a free one. Salvation comes from God's grace.
If grace is a gift, then salvation also is a gift. So, your statement that it is not a work of the law makes no sense.
Click to expand...
The Spirit draws, convicts of sin...man has a choice to believe or reject Jesus Christ.
 
Beckie

Beckie

Well-known member
#4,786
Feb 15, 2022
2,516
939
113
#4,786
John146 said:
The Spirit draws, convicts of sin...man has a choice to believe or reject Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...
The Spirit is one person of the Godhead. The above statement is giving mans will power, control, strength, not sure which word fits best over that of God. I do not see man choosing while reading in the book of John. Some of the verse posted here.
Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. I hear Christ say i will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#4,788
Jul 13, 2021
3,697
578
113
#4,788
Beckie said:
The Spirit is one person of the Godhead. The above statement is giving mans will power, control, strength, not sure which word fits best over that of God. I do not see man choosing while reading in the book of John. Some of the verse posted here.
Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. I hear Christ say i will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Click to expand...
Apparently, John146 is unable to grasp the concept of free gift.
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#4,790
Jul 13, 2021
3,697
578
113
#4,790
John146 said:
I have refused many free gifts throughout my life.
Click to expand...
This gift is non-refusable, nor would anyone who has received it choose to. If they would, they've never had it.
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#4,796
Jul 13, 2021
3,697
578
113
#4,796
VARob said:
Agrippa did. Unfortunately, many people do.
Click to expand...
Choice is not a factor in salvation - it is a free gift. If choice is a requirement, then without question, salvation couldn't be/wouldn't be free. Fee means free, entirely, and in all aspects - he refused salvation because he wasn't saved.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#4,798
Jan 13, 2016
17,131
3,689
113
#4,798
rogerg said:
So, you agree with me - that someone saved cannot refuse salvation?
Click to expand...
Lol, good one....one must receive the Lord Jesus Christ and then they are saved.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#4,799
Jul 13, 2021
3,697
578
113
#4,799
John146 said:
Lol, good one....one must receive the Lord Jesus Christ and then they are saved.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
Click to expand...
Thanks.
No, if that were the case it wouldn't/couldn't be a free gift.
The "shalt be saved" pertains to the last day - the day of the Lord.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#4,800
Jan 13, 2016
17,131
3,689
113
#4,800
rogerg said:
Thanks.
No, if that were the case it wouldn't/couldn't be a free gift.
The "shalt be saved" pertains to the last day - the day of the Lord.
Click to expand...
You have a non-biblical answer for everything. The following is about the present as well.

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.