Doctrine of Unconditional Election
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Everything I post is biblical - I always include supporting verses to substantiate my point. And you have an uncanny ability to not be able to realize the significance of what you're reading in the Bible.
As an example of what I'm saying, look at this verse you've included above.
In v10 it says "For with the heart man believeth" but what you seem not to understand is that God must first change the heart to
be able to truly "believeth". Unless that first occurs, a man will retain the heart of natural man and will never truly believe. Here:
[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? And here:
[Eze 36:26 KJV] 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Without that change first, none of the other verses can occur either. It's not complicated.
As an example of what I'm saying, look at this verse you've included above.
In v10 it says "For with the heart man believeth" but what you seem not to understand is that God must first change the heart to
be able to truly "believeth". Unless that first occurs, a man will retain the heart of natural man and will never truly believe. Here:
[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? And here:
[Eze 36:26 KJV] 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Without that change first, none of the other verses can occur either. It's not complicated.
Yes, I agree that would normally be the case. But God continued to tell them to repent and return. Had he divorced them completely He would not still be calling to them. In spite of their sin God had an unending love for Israel.
Would you bear with me for a question or two? So as a dispy how did you believe God related to Israel/ the Jews. How does that differ from your belief now? The verses above show you believe God created an elect and others for destruction. So where would the chosen Jews stand? The OT says they are the apple of His eye. The Bible says salvation is to the Jew first. We were grafted in. So you say the elect are assured of salvation, whether they slip and fail or not they "always saved". Would that not even be more so to the Jews whom the covenants were made? How can the elect be always in Gods grace and the chosen Jews outside His grace. Hosea in the end is calling Israel to repent and return to God. Once you divorce a spouse do you keep calling them to return? No, you don't, and you certainly don't make a new covenant with them.
Now as far as the verses you post I believe they are about the elect, mainly God choosing to use one over another. But I don't believe God chooses individuals for salvation or damnation. Otherwise God is just creating human being and arbitrarily choosing this one for salvation and that one for damnation. We know God is just, so why would he look at two humans and say one gets salvation the other does not. That is not the character of God. God could flat out decide at 10:00 pm He's going to kill everyone in the northern hemisphere. But He doesn't and He won't because He is a just God.
Would you bear with me for a question or two? So as a dispy how did you believe God related to Israel/ the Jews. How does that differ from your belief now? The verses above show you believe God created an elect and others for destruction. So where would the chosen Jews stand? The OT says they are the apple of His eye. The Bible says salvation is to the Jew first. We were grafted in. So you say the elect are assured of salvation, whether they slip and fail or not they "always saved". Would that not even be more so to the Jews whom the covenants were made? How can the elect be always in Gods grace and the chosen Jews outside His grace. Hosea in the end is calling Israel to repent and return to God. Once you divorce a spouse do you keep calling them to return? No, you don't, and you certainly don't make a new covenant with them.
Now as far as the verses you post I believe they are about the elect, mainly God choosing to use one over another. But I don't believe God chooses individuals for salvation or damnation. Otherwise God is just creating human being and arbitrarily choosing this one for salvation and that one for damnation. We know God is just, so why would he look at two humans and say one gets salvation the other does not. That is not the character of God. God could flat out decide at 10:00 pm He's going to kill everyone in the northern hemisphere. But He doesn't and He won't because He is a just God.
I think if I said what I really believe about election I would upset a lot of people, so I keep that to myself. Let me say this. I have worked with many unsaved people over many years. And I 100% believe and tell them that God is able to save them, take them out of bondage, heal their marriages and save them completely. One preacher once said "God is able to save from the guttermost to the uttermost" And I believe and have preached it whatever God has given me the opportunity to do so. Jesus Saves, He said it and I believe it!!!
I believe it was Catherine Booth who had a dream about the lost. She said that she saw many people beside the ocean. They were walking and talking, children were playing, it was a beautiful day and the people on the land were enjoying every second. But as she looked across the vast amount of people enjoying and indulging themselves in lifes pleasures she looked toward the water. And to her horror the people in the water were trying to get up on the land. They couldn't quite reach and some were beginning to drown. They were trying with all their might to get up on land and called out to the people passing by. But the people either ignored them or just shook their heads and kept talking and laughing with their friends. The people going down under the water began to cry and scream for help but no one came to their aid. Now this picture was supposed to be about ministry and reaching the lost. But I apply that to the belief that God chose some for salvation and others for destruction and I see this picture. The "elect" on the land and the others lost in the sea of life with nothing but darkness, fear, no one to turn to, not even God. Is that what you believe?! Wouldn't it be better to kill yourself and have it over with? I do not understand this POV. Not in the least. Not one person is more worthy of God's grace than another.
I believe it was Catherine Booth who had a dream about the lost. She said that she saw many people beside the ocean. They were walking and talking, children were playing, it was a beautiful day and the people on the land were enjoying every second. But as she looked across the vast amount of people enjoying and indulging themselves in lifes pleasures she looked toward the water. And to her horror the people in the water were trying to get up on the land. They couldn't quite reach and some were beginning to drown. They were trying with all their might to get up on land and called out to the people passing by. But the people either ignored them or just shook their heads and kept talking and laughing with their friends. The people going down under the water began to cry and scream for help but no one came to their aid. Now this picture was supposed to be about ministry and reaching the lost. But I apply that to the belief that God chose some for salvation and others for destruction and I see this picture. The "elect" on the land and the others lost in the sea of life with nothing but darkness, fear, no one to turn to, not even God. Is that what you believe?! Wouldn't it be better to kill yourself and have it over with? I do not understand this POV. Not in the least. Not one person is more worthy of God's grace than another.
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good guess 
it truly shows what you believe, sadly Paul Simon is way to often correct.
it truly shows what you believe, sadly Paul Simon is way to often correct.
Whether people believe it or not, they play a part in their salvation.
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Disagree. Notice in the below, that God tells the Jews, not that He would take earthly Israel back, but instead that He would
take Jews "one of a city", "two of a family". By that, He is symbolically informing that only Jews that were elected to salvation would return to hm, not that earthly Israel would to Him nor be remarried to Him. Given as God cannot have two wives, and He became married to spiritual Israel, a divorced earthly Israel cannot again become His wife. So, earthly Israel has been given a final divorce decree from which as a nation, there is no return.
Don't forget there are two Israels, and sometimes it is difficult to immediately distinguish which one is in view if we're not considering that as a possibility - one can easily be mistaken for the other.
[Jer 3:11-12, 14-15 KJV]
11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; [and] I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I [am] merciful, saith the LORD, [and] I will not keep [anger] for ever. ...
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
"Would you bear with me for a question or two? So as a dispy how did you believe God related to Israel/ the Jews. How does that differ from your belief now?"
The Jews of Moses's time, as a nation, rejected the gospel of Christ because most had not been given faith and were not of those chosen to be saved (as it happens today too) - they trusted in their own righteousness. That is why, I believe, that God tells us in the below that He purposefully gave to them laws and statutes whereby they should not live. Just my opinion, but because of their rejection of Christ, the die was cast as to where they would end-up (as with all of the unsaved)- it being inevitable even though God had given them frequent warnings and opportunities before He divorced them - but the responsibility for that was upon them. Everyone saved is saved(or not) the same way including the OT/NT Jews - salvation is only given as a gift to some, the others are under judgement -there is no middle ground. Scary, huh?
[Eze 20:24-25 KJV]
24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.
25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes [that were] not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;
"The verses above show you believe God created an elect and others for destruction. So where would the chosen Jews stand?"
First, I'm not sure that I believe that God created anyone for destruction. I believe that judgment came about by Adam, Eve, and Satan, not by God. However, I do believe that God in His mercy and grace had chosen from before the before foundation of the world only certain people whom He intended to save- Jews included - even though they (and we) are completely underserving of it. Since no one deserves it, it is then rightly His prerogative to bequeath to it whomever He so chose for it, which is what He did.
Regarding the Jews, I believe they stand on exactly the same spiritual ground as everyone else does - they were either individually chosen as elect, or they were not - they are either justified by Christ or they're not - no middle ground. I do not believe that a national identity is any factor in it.
"The OT says they are the apple of His eye"
The apple of His eye is the elect. Why? Because God sees them as though He were seeing Christ.
"The Bible says salvation is to the Jew first. We were grafted in."
Certain Jews were the first to become saved/born again(the early rain). Other Jews and non-Jews came afterwards (the latter rain), but the Jews came first. Nevertheless, as it is for one, so it is for the other.
"So you say the elect are assured of salvation, whether they slip and fail or not they "always saved". Would that not even be more so to the Jews whom the covenants were made? How can the elect be always in Gods grace and the chosen Jews outside His grace."
What do you mean by "chosen Jews" ? Do you mean the elect Jews or somehow the Jews of earthly Israel - they can be different sets of Jews? No one is saved because of any earthly affiliation - Israel or otherwise. It is solely dependent upon whether or not God had chosen the individual for salvation.
Slipping and falling has no effect or impact upon one's salvation if of the elect - whether Jews or otherwise - all are under God's grace. Salvation is solely by what Christ achieved, not by what a person might achieve or not.
"Hosea in the end is calling Israel to repent and return to God. Once you divorce a spouse do you keep calling them to return? No, you don't, and you certainly don't make a new covenant with them."
Don't know which verses you have in mind, but generally, the verses having to do with blessing are intended for
spiritual Isarel; the verses having to do with bad things, judgements, etc, for earthly Israel, maybe even for all of the non-elect.
I haven't read that book in quite a while, so it's difficult for me to recall precise details right now.
So, it's kind of late for me and being tired I may not have written everything as I should have.
Therefore, I'll reread maybe tomorrow hopefully with a fresh brain, but might find things that I'll need to revise.
take Jews "one of a city", "two of a family". By that, He is symbolically informing that only Jews that were elected to salvation would return to hm, not that earthly Israel would to Him nor be remarried to Him. Given as God cannot have two wives, and He became married to spiritual Israel, a divorced earthly Israel cannot again become His wife. So, earthly Israel has been given a final divorce decree from which as a nation, there is no return.
Don't forget there are two Israels, and sometimes it is difficult to immediately distinguish which one is in view if we're not considering that as a possibility - one can easily be mistaken for the other.
[Jer 3:11-12, 14-15 KJV]
11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; [and] I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I [am] merciful, saith the LORD, [and] I will not keep [anger] for ever. ...
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
"Would you bear with me for a question or two? So as a dispy how did you believe God related to Israel/ the Jews. How does that differ from your belief now?"
The Jews of Moses's time, as a nation, rejected the gospel of Christ because most had not been given faith and were not of those chosen to be saved (as it happens today too) - they trusted in their own righteousness. That is why, I believe, that God tells us in the below that He purposefully gave to them laws and statutes whereby they should not live. Just my opinion, but because of their rejection of Christ, the die was cast as to where they would end-up (as with all of the unsaved)- it being inevitable even though God had given them frequent warnings and opportunities before He divorced them - but the responsibility for that was upon them. Everyone saved is saved(or not) the same way including the OT/NT Jews - salvation is only given as a gift to some, the others are under judgement -there is no middle ground. Scary, huh?
[Eze 20:24-25 KJV]
24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.
25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes [that were] not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;
"The verses above show you believe God created an elect and others for destruction. So where would the chosen Jews stand?"
First, I'm not sure that I believe that God created anyone for destruction. I believe that judgment came about by Adam, Eve, and Satan, not by God. However, I do believe that God in His mercy and grace had chosen from before the before foundation of the world only certain people whom He intended to save- Jews included - even though they (and we) are completely underserving of it. Since no one deserves it, it is then rightly His prerogative to bequeath to it whomever He so chose for it, which is what He did.
Regarding the Jews, I believe they stand on exactly the same spiritual ground as everyone else does - they were either individually chosen as elect, or they were not - they are either justified by Christ or they're not - no middle ground. I do not believe that a national identity is any factor in it.
"The OT says they are the apple of His eye"
The apple of His eye is the elect. Why? Because God sees them as though He were seeing Christ.
"The Bible says salvation is to the Jew first. We were grafted in."
Certain Jews were the first to become saved/born again(the early rain). Other Jews and non-Jews came afterwards (the latter rain), but the Jews came first. Nevertheless, as it is for one, so it is for the other.
"So you say the elect are assured of salvation, whether they slip and fail or not they "always saved". Would that not even be more so to the Jews whom the covenants were made? How can the elect be always in Gods grace and the chosen Jews outside His grace."
What do you mean by "chosen Jews" ? Do you mean the elect Jews or somehow the Jews of earthly Israel - they can be different sets of Jews? No one is saved because of any earthly affiliation - Israel or otherwise. It is solely dependent upon whether or not God had chosen the individual for salvation.
Slipping and falling has no effect or impact upon one's salvation if of the elect - whether Jews or otherwise - all are under God's grace. Salvation is solely by what Christ achieved, not by what a person might achieve or not.
"Hosea in the end is calling Israel to repent and return to God. Once you divorce a spouse do you keep calling them to return? No, you don't, and you certainly don't make a new covenant with them."
Don't know which verses you have in mind, but generally, the verses having to do with blessing are intended for
spiritual Isarel; the verses having to do with bad things, judgements, etc, for earthly Israel, maybe even for all of the non-elect.
I haven't read that book in quite a while, so it's difficult for me to recall precise details right now.
So, it's kind of late for me and being tired I may not have written everything as I should have.
Therefore, I'll reread maybe tomorrow hopefully with a fresh brain, but might find things that I'll need to revise.
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"play a part in their salvation" - means that whoever believes so remains under law and works and not grace.
We haven't ignored those verses at all, we've explained them repeatedly to you and others - and they do not change our interpretation of 1 Cor 2:14 - in fact, they reinforce it - you are just unable to grasp what those verses are saying. This may be because you don't know how to correctly read the Bible.
The natural man of 1 Cor 2:14 beyond question represents man that has not been born-again.
You should try reading 2:12 and 2:13 too.
We haven't ignored those verses at all, we've explained them repeatedly to you and others - and they do not change our interpretation of 1 Cor 2:14 - in fact, they reinforce it - you are just unable to grasp what those verses are saying. This may be because you don't know how to correctly read the Bible.
The natural man of 1 Cor 2:14 beyond question represents man that has not been born-again.
You should try reading 2:12 and 2:13 too.
My Friend you have packed a lot into 2 paragraphs .
The verses above show you believe God created an elect and others for destruction. The Word says what it says Those verses are the Word of God not mine.
So where would the chosen Jews stand?
Doubt my words will be clear but i will try... Things changed with the Birth Death and Resurrection of our Lord.
The old covenant had been broken by man. Do we really need more evidence then the lives of the disciples?
Rom_2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Jew are not an enemy some are Christians saved by Grace.
He is a just God
He can only be Godly
I totally agree. While thinking back some years to the Sunday School lessons . God was just when Jericho collapsed. God was just when creepy Hearod murdered all the 2 year old boys. He was just when the death angel of the passover went through Egypt. Speaking of Egypt , Moses was saved from the same kind of death Hearod used. Yes He is just .
Wrote this a couple hours ago ... had to get dinner on the table... hope to spend time here tomorrow .....
you have packed a lot into 2 paragraphs .The verses above show you believe God created an elect and others for destruction. The Word says what it says Those verses are the Word of God not mine.
So where would the chosen Jews stand?
Doubt my words will be clear but i will try... Things changed with the Birth Death and Resurrection of our Lord.
The old covenant had been broken by man. Do we really need more evidence then the lives of the disciples?
Rom_2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Jew are not an enemy some are Christians saved by Grace.
He is a just God
He can only be Godly
I totally agree. While thinking back some years to the Sunday School lessons . God was just when Jericho collapsed. God was just when creepy Hearod murdered all the 2 year old boys. He was just when the death angel of the passover went through Egypt. Speaking of Egypt , Moses was saved from the same kind of death Hearod used. Yes He is just .
Wrote this a couple hours ago ... had to get dinner on the table... hope to spend time here tomorrow .....
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Ahh! Good point! Why pray, or preach or evangelize? If half of us are already secure and the other half can never come why even have a church? Why read the Bible? Why tell anyone that God can forgive your sin? Maybe He won't or can't. We send missions overseas, to what purpose? A waste of time, money and effort. God already choose the outcome.
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