The Heresy of Perfectionism

[AnandaHya]

You better read the op again. It is surprising to me, how many people respond to something without the context of what is really being discussed

4runner, you don't have a clue about context and your continuing condescending tone is becoming offensive.

I suggest you follow your own suggestions and reread what everyone has ever posted in response to you after heartfelt prayer to God to show you what they are trying to convey with their words and not what you're filter and pride makes you think they are saying.

"Jesus said 'Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgement.' (John 7: 24) Righteous judgement is the direct result of love. If you cannot pray in love for a person or the church, do not presume you have true discernment. Love precedes peace, and peace precedes perception. Without love and peace in your heart, your judgement will be overly harsh. Regardless of the smile upon your face, your heart will have too much anger. False discernment is always slow to hear, quick to speak, and quick to anger."

- Frances Frangipane "the Three Battlegrounds"

 

[jandian]

If I may say, I dont think ppl despise the imputed righteousness of God, I think they might be concerned that some ppl might use it as an excuse for their weaknesses and not make the effort to be transformed by His power.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If I may say, I dont think ppl despise the imputed righteousness of God, I think they might be concerned that some ppl might use it as an excuse for their weaknesses and not make the effort to be transformed by His power.

Yes. people twist Gods truth all the time in order to make their false beliefs appear true.

The problem is mankind has a tendancy to take these doctrines which people do this too, and discount them as false. just because people twist them. I guess they think if we make them false. no one will have the chance to distort them (the jews did this, and came up with a whole set of laws)

 

[zone]

If I may say, I dont think ppl despise the imputed righteousness of God, I think they might be concerned that some ppl might use it as an excuse for their weaknesses and not make the effort to be transformed by His power.

well, actually, many many people do despise the imputed righteousness of Christ.
they insist upon standing befoe the Lord proclaiming their own part in their salvation....if i read it right, they'll be told He never knew them.

they claim they are perfect, sinless, obedient and righteous.

they will give a nod to the Holy Spirit for the ability to achieve this pre-resurrection glory.

everything they believe is error, and it's wrapped in the language of holiness and being pleasing to the Lord.

they preach man saves himself, sanctifies himself, cleanses himself, makes himself right before God.

they have fallen from Grace (if they were ever saved to begin with). for they would justified by their own merit (supposedly by obeying The Law), the reason being: they desire to boast and lord it over other men.

what saved person uses grace as a license to sin? people don't seem to be bothered to find out what group was actually being described in that passage. they believed that DEVIANT SEXUAL ACTIVITY AND RAMPANT SINNING was a way to santify the spirit - by defiling the flesh (there are people doing just those very things today...tantric sex for example...its alive in groups that call themselves christian and jewish you know).

they'll say they are fighting licenteousness. but that is something worked out by The Holy Spirit in the believer and is in actuality worked out as a local body among the elders and fellow congregants of the local assembly.

these people have no idea who they are threatening with their arminian man-centered gospel (which is another gospel), since this is the internet.

they preach another jesus, another gospel, and they have another spirit.

the pretext of "caring" for the sheep and warning them about their sin is bogus.

 

[Digital_Angel_316]

JESUS WAS OUR EXAMPLE?

i see a whole lot of typing and a whole lot of human logic.

what's that got to do with the Biblical doctrine of RIGHTEOUSNESS IMPUTED BY FAITH?
in fact, if we don't get this right, we have no sound soteriology whatsoever.

i find it shocking and sad that this core tenet of Christiantiy is missing today. but i'm seeing that no matter how many times the truth is presented that God Himself has provided both a Sacrifice for Himself, and has ordained the means by His Own Counsel whereby He justifes the ungodly, some people just HATE THE TRUE GOSPEL...i don't mean you DA i just mean in general.

why is the imputed righteousness of Christ so despised? there's no other way to be saved.

Short answer -- Your initial post claimed Charles and Spurgeon and cited a short essay or
sermon. I indicated the sermon was twisted, misleading or incomplete. -- It is, - as
applied, void. I didn't see any scripture in Spurgeon's speech, I didn't see anything but a
false Calvinism in a land of evil, that led to the very 'downgrade controversy' that ended
Spurgeon's life.

No human logic there, just simple examples. I agree, you must get this right, it is about
time to get down to doctrinal fundamentals, glad you accepted.

Note first ... two concepts ... 1) RIGHTEOUSNESS ... 2) FAITH

* What is righteousness or from whence does it come? -- Adam? Noah? Talmud?
Sharia? Mary?

* MANY, MANY have "FAITH" in one or more or all of the above. But that faith is not
Righteousness.

* So you see, JESUS SET THE EXAMPLE of Righteousness, not Adam or Noah or Mary etc
etc.

John 8: 56 - 58
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the
Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said
unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

* One has to have FAITH in something (someone, someone's DOCTRINE)

* "Faith" that you won't drown or won't burn is a blind and misguided 'faith'. In fact, it is
a delusion. Again, the "FREE GIFT" is NOT SALVATION, but rather the FAITH in the
DOCTRINE of RIGHT LIVING as lived and taught by Jesus -- THE WAY.

* IMPUTED righteousness is simply the claim that JESUS WAS RIGHT ... we must claim
THAT righteousness as the standard -- Not Calvin, Not Spurgeon, Not Olsteen, Not Graham,
not Stanley, not Falwell etc. etc.

* BECAUSE JESUS Was right, by claiming HIS System of righteousness, we become a party
to a system. A system apart from worldliness, materialism, pride, greed and other
demons.

* Tell me where you see a lot of typing and man's words, and I will gladly go over it again
for you.

* Let's stop, or even start an entire other thread if need be or want to. I agree, we
should start with some basic understandings -- Understand this -- Spurgeon is not the
one, not in that speech, not with that sort of Calvinism. Again, he instigated the
downgrade controversy due to the fallacy of magic and name-it, claim it, "I am right cuz
another guy got killed" doctrine.

* I try to outline it for you because it may be hard to follow sometimes, what with a 'lot
of typing' and 'human logic' involved -- What are you Zone, Covenant, Calvinist,
Zoroastrian, or just what? I agree, we need to define and claim a doctrine.

 

[jandian]

I agree people do twist God's word all the time, I am really not denying that. I was talking in context of the thread. I see people being very passionate about their view. sometimes they think they are in opposition to each other but the truth is they may not be.

The argument reminds me of that scripture: faith without works is dead, yet faith is not about works
so to we are righteous by grace; yet, if we dont practice righteousness we loose it

 

[AnandaHya]

I agree people do twist God's word all the time, I am really not denying that. I was talking in context of the thread. I see people being very passionate about their view. sometimes they think they are in opposition to each other but the truth is they may not be.

The argument reminds me of that scripture: faith without works is dead, yet faith is not about works
so to we are righteous by grace; yet, if we dont practice righteousness we loose it

we can't lose Christ's righteousness and we can not lose salvation. if your faith has no works it is dead and is a dead faith that is not base and grounded upon Christ's true gospel but imaginations of men. it is planted in stony ground of a prideful heart, or stolen by the birds of satan, or choked up by cares of the world and lack of focus and time spent in prayer to God and listening to His teachings and guidance of the Holy Spirit but instead following doctrines of men and imaginations of your own flesh and those around you that cause you to be unfruitful and workless. for to not do the work God has entrusted you with is a sin and if we are to live according to the first commandment in obedience, worship and love of God then we obey Him and His commandments to work for the salvation of the world. we do not judge the world and condemn it but instead work to show them God's salvation plan.

Is your faith built upon the righteousness of Christ, the Stone, or have you built your salvation upon shifty sands and works salvation doctrines?

 

[jandian]

we can't lose Christ's righteousness and we can not lose salvation. if your faith has no works it is dead and is a dead faith that is not base and grounded upon Christ's true gospel but imaginations of men. it is planted in stony ground of a prideful heart, or stolen by the birds of satan, or choked up by cares of the world and lack of focus and time spent in prayer to God and listening to His teachings and guidance of the Holy Spirit but instead following doctrines of men and imaginations of your own flesh and those around you that cause you to be unfruitful and workless. for to not do the work God has entrusted you with is a sin and if we are to live according to the first commandment in obedience, worship and love of God then we obey Him and His commandments to work for the salvation of the world. we do not judge the world and condemn it but instead work to show them God's salvation plan.

This is exactly what I'm talking about...

If you loose your salvation, will you have the righteousness of Christ? NO we wont, then even though I put the word righteousness to flow with the rest of the sentence... we are actually saying the same thing differently.

 

[jandian]

Ok wait.... I just realise we are not saying the same thing.... I believe you can loose salvation........In revelation when Christ was warning the church, He told them get back in line otherwise he will blot out their names from the book of life........... If you are out of the book of life, then you have lost your salvation......

 

[AnandaHya]

I agree, we need to define and claim a doctrine[/B].

I'm sorry I must disagree. I could care less to define or claim any doctrines except to better understand the person I am talking to and with. to understand the strongholds they have placed in their hearts to understanding and hearing God's voice in their life.

My faith is not based upon doctrines but upon my relationship with Christ. His love, His words, His teachings and His righteousness. He teaches me obedience to His ways and shows me His light to guide my life and my words and my steps.

God writes His commandments in my heart and soul and my mind learns to read His letter and His words found therein. Relationship not doctrine is the foundation of my spiritual house of worship. Not blueprints of morality, not stones of ritual but intimacy with my Lord and Savior and daily presence through prayer with Him. Daily taking in His word as bread, daily renewing of my spirit with His life flowing waters of love, daily worship of praise upon my lips and in my heart to join the songs of angels before His throne.

why do we need to define and claim a doctrine? why not instead spend the time in prayer, in study of His Word and in the presence of God?

 

[AnandaHya]

Ok wait.... I just realise we are not saying the same thing.... I believe you can loose salvation........In revelation when Christ was warning the church, He told them get back in line otherwise he will blot out their names from the book of life........... If you are out of the book of life, then you have lost your salvation......

and that is the key of the discussion. some believe salvation can be lost and some do not believe it so.

I do not believe it is possible.

can you give me scriptures to support your views?

I will take it to my Father in prayer and see what He says.

here is one of the many scriptures for why I believe Jesus would not allow anyone of His sheep to be lost.

Luke 15
1 Then all the tax collectors and the sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. 2 And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them.” 3 So He spoke this parable to them, saying:
4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

 

[4runner]

Ok wait.... I just realise we are not saying the same thing.... I believe you can loose salvation........In revelation when Christ was warning the church, He told them get back in line otherwise he will blot out their names from the book of life........... If you are out of the book of life, then you have lost your salvation......

Keep you eyes on Jesus sis. There are many false teahcers in here that will now begin to attack you, seeing as you are speaking truth

 

[4runner]

can you give me scriptures to support your views?

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
There is no question here that those that were once ''grafted in (saved) can afterwards be cut off (backslide). In context Paul is writing to believing Gentiles about unbelieving Jews.
Romans 11:16-24
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree:
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, the branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.
20 Well: because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standeth by faith. Be not high minded but fear.
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
23 And they also if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature, and were grafted in contrary to nature into the good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branched be grated into their own olive tree?
Here we see the unbelieving Jews were cut out and the believing Gentiles were grafted into the good olive tree. There is no guarantee of Eternal Security, as a matter of fact it's just the opposite. If we do not continue in God's goodness we will be cut off.
Verse 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
The Jews were cut off because of unbelief but the scripture says that we as Gentiles will be cut off because we do not continue in God's goodness. If we are cut off it is because of sin not unbelief; the unbelieving Gentile would have never been grafted in in the first place.



''IF'' we continue in the faith. Colossians 1:21-23
Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now have been reconciled.
22 In the body of His flesh through His death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight.
23 IF you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am a minister;
Like in Romans 11:22 we see the big IF, If we continue in the faith, being grounded and settled, not being moved away from the hope of the gospel. We will be presented holy, unblameable, unreproveable before God. If we are moved away not continuing in the faith then we will not be presented holy before God.
This clearly shows we can be moved away from God after we have been reconciled. Verse 21 said we were enemies of God by wicked works and if we are moved away from the hope of our salvation, return to engaging in wicked works after we have been ''saved'' we will return to being enemies of God.

 

[AnandaHya]

Matthew 18

10 “Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven. 11 For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.[a]
12 “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13 And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

are you saying the will of man is stronger then the will of God who it is written that "it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish"?

 

[AnandaHya]

Keep you eyes on Jesus sis. There are many false teahcers in here that will now begin to attack you, seeing as you are speaking truth

and there are many who want to claim to be teachers and do not listen when people say they are only brethren and child of God seeking to grow in Christ and learn His will who will place on your shoulders the yoke of the law and place you back in the bondage of lies and deception.

they will yell "Attack" whenever anyone says anything that disagrees with their beliefs and not actually read what is going on or discuss what others think but instead play victim or become offensive and start attacking themselves.

 

[jandian]

and that is the key of the discussion. some believe salvation can be lost and some do not believe it so.

I do not believe it is possible.

can you give me scriptures to support your views?

I will take it to my Father in prayer and see what He says.

here is one of the many scriptures for why I believe Jesus would not allow anyone of His sheep to be lost.

Luke 15
1 Then all the tax collectors and the sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. 2 And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them.” 3 So He spoke this parable to them, saying:
4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

I appreciate the fact that you genuinely want to know the truth. I like the fact that you are willing to go to God to confirm. thats excellent...That's how alot of things got cleared up with me too... I heading out now though, but I promise to get you as much Scriptures as I can tomorrow or later tonight.... You could start with reading Revelations where he was warning the churches and what would happen if they did not listen...

catch you later

 

[jandian]

Keep you eyes on Jesus sis. There are many false teahcers in here that will now begin to attack you, seeing as you are speaking truth

Thanks I appreciate your encouragement... I'm actually looking forward to the discussions....I want what God wants....for all of us to know His Truth

 

[AnandaHya]

Romans 11 is to unsaved Jews and how God will graft the Jewish people and make them realize that Jesus is Savior and Messiah before the final judgement. they have rejected Jesus and have backslided but some will eventually be saved because God will it. this is about a NATION NOT individual people who have been grafted in and saved.

what gospel do you teach 4runner?

it is not by works we are saved and it is NOT by works we can lose salvation. the GOSPEL is living and abiding in CHRIST. It is through the CROSS we are saved and it is in faith in JESUS we remain saved and when we stray by thinking it is OUR works that bring salvation then we have moved away from the gospel that Paul teaches and have picked up the yoke of the law.

Colossians 1

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which[d] is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. 29 To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily.

 

[AnandaHya]

I appreciate the fact that you genuinely want to know the truth. I like the fact that you are willing to go to God to confirm. thats excellent...That's how alot of things got cleared up with me too... I heading out now though, but I promise to get you as much Scriptures as I can tomorrow or later tonight.... You could start with reading Revelations where he was warning the churches and what would happen if they did not listen...

catch you later

yes that is to a church not to individual people but I will look forward to the discussion have a blessed day.

 

[AnandaHya]

by the way the letters in Revelation is written to the Angels of the churches and the difference between the two is a whole another topic of conversation