The Heresy of Perfectionism

[AnandaHya]

there may be a need to taper back on those nutritional suppliments..

but i like flintstone vitamins

my brother and i ate a whole bottle and was sick of a whole day when i was 5 cuz we thought it was candy. had to stand on my brother's shoulders to get it. mom was really mad but thought the belly aches were apt punishments.

 

[AnandaHya]

So you do believe in praying in the Spirit? And i thought you claimed to be a ceasationalist?

see you have no clue who you are talking to or what others believe and I wonder why you are on this forum because you don't seem to care to learn..

 

[4runner]

nah Zone loves me as a sister in Christ and I give her the same respect and love.

Francis Frangipane Counterfeit Discernment End Times Prophetic, Prophecy, Visions, Dreams, Revelation, Christian Blog

thought this was interesting....

AnandaHya, I apologize for suggesting you do not diserve respect you do, and if I hurt you feelings at all I am truly sorry.

The truth is we do need to know authentic in such away that any counterfeit will be clearly detected. Study to show yourself approved. We need to read the Word, and re-read it, and re-read again as long as we live. I (not bragging) have read the N.T. over 300 time, and I (again not bragging) can discern falsehood from truth almost as soon as I hear it.

I know she is your friend or whatever, but Zone is into some really bad stuff, denying God's gifts, His ministerial work in the church ect....

We really, really need to know the Word for ourselves.

 

[4runner]

see you have no clue who you are talking to or what others believe and I wonder why you are on this forum because you don't seem to care to learn..

Actually I do know. you and i both know she is a ceasationalist, if you dont know ask her she will tell you so, therefore she does not believe in praying in the Spirit. You cannot believe the spiritual gifts are done and gone, and believe that one can pray in the Spirit at the same time.

Are you willing to learn?

 

[4runner]

I found this little tid bit in the article you posted

''Paul is saying, “Beware of those who always have something negative to say, who are continually judging or slandering others. If you listen to them, you will become like them. Their words will rob you of vision, leave you without joy, and drain you of energy.”

Sounds like our friend Zone, and surly enough you piled on when she attacked.

Be careful who you hang around. what does Paul say in 1st Corinthians 15?

1st Corinthians 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

 

[Abiding]

Actually I do know. you and i both know she is a ceasationalist, if you dont know ask her she will tell you so, therefore she does not believe in praying in the Spirit. You cannot believe the spiritual gifts are done and gone, and believe that one can pray in the Spirit at the same time.

Are you willing to learn?

4runner, I already gave you the speech about presumption. When we test, and hold on to that which is true.
We truly have to test. That takes time. Titles only tell briefly what a person is. It cant be done Jesse James style. Ive been listenning to you for weeks, I dont feel I know your doctrine yet. I see some actions, but that doesnt tell me who you really are.

 

[4runner]

4runner, I already gave you the speech about presumption. When we test, and hold on to that which is true.
We truly have to test. That takes time. Titles only tell briefly what a person is. It cant be done Jesse James style. Ive been listenning to you for weeks, I dont feel I know your doctrine yet. I see some actions, but that doesnt tell me who you really are.

Are you telling me that you believe Zone does believe in spiritual gifts. If that were the case, she would not be a ceasationalist. Believe it or not words do actually have meanings assigned to them.

As far as my actions go, I readily admit they have been less than Christ-like, but I have confessed my faults to the Lord, and have once again been washed clean, free of sin. I will with Christ's help try to correct them (however, I will call a wolf a wolf when i see it approaching the flock for that is also what Christ would do)

As far as my doctrine ask away. What is it that you are unclear of?

 

[AnandaHya]

Actually I do know. you and i both know she is a ceasationalist, if you dont know ask her she will tell you so, therefore she does not believe in praying in the Spirit. You cannot believe the spiritual gifts are done and gone, and believe that one can pray in the Spirit at the same time.

Are you willing to learn?

4runner you haven't a clue. you know that Elizabeth and others hold to "cessationist" views.

most do not deny the working of the Holy Spirit. they believe that one verse out of the Bible shows that the foundation of the church was laid and that the Apostolic gifts and ministries are no longer active and have not been since the completion of the Bible.


they make a distinction between apostolic gifts and other gifts of the spirit and fruits of the spirit and hold that God still raises up ministers through His holy annointing and still heals and answers prayers, etc. just not through people anymore but though His Holy Spirit without the use of people laying on hands but simple prayer.

you see I have learned and continue to learn from my brethren and the Holy Spirit my one Teacher and comforter.

yeah you kind of did hurt my feelings with the you don't deserve respect comment, but eventually I get over that and try my best not to hold it against you, but I still think you are judging the people on this site wrong.

EG and Zone don't agree on every thing but they respect each other. Estachology is always a tough subject.

Zone and I butted heads about the existence of modern day prophets and apostles and I have to admit that most of the people who claim the title in the public eye are False and wolves. We have a difference in what we call spiritual gifts and miracles, and other terms.She thinks my definition is too broad and I think hers is too narrow.

but you see that takes time to learn what others are saying and what they actually believe.

Zone does believe in praying in the Holy Spirit but just not as many charismatic groups claim.

you can not make statements when you have no facts behind them. you do not know her. you only know what the term "cessationist" means to YOU. if you didn't know there are three groups withing cessationist camp that believe things differently.

if you actually wanted to learn about what the term means to various people. some of which you will encounter on this site. I would suggest you listen or read a few of these sermons and talks.

Cessationism Resources

when you say "are you willing to learn?"

i'm not sure what you are referring to. I am willing to listen to what you have to say and hear your testimony of how God has worked in your life.

know though that you are NOT my teacher for I bow to no Rabbi or guru and have no Master except for Christ who is my One teacher and Lord and Savior.

If you will speak to me as a sister in Christ I will listen

. if your tone continues to sound condescending I will still listen but will most likely be annoyed as well.

 

[Abiding]

Actions dont tell of salvation, anyone can succumb to the flesh. When fights start, all lose. When we fight with scripture, I think
its makes us shameful. Im not above being in the flesh, yet by grace i overcome the temptation oft times. But if I dont it doesnt
speak of my salvation. It only speaks of my stupidity to fall into pride, or anger, or whathaveyou.

A servant of the Lord must not strive...the bible says. And we are told every place it talks about us being togather to be
patient, kind, forebearing, forgiving...etc...see this is told to Christians...the Holyspirit knows us quite well.

Where is the devil?...as usual, divide and conquer..

 

[4runner]

4runner you haven't a clue. you know that Elizabeth and others hold to "cessationist" views.

most do not deny the working of the Holy Spirit. they believe that one verse out of the Bible shows that the foundation of the church was laid and that the Apostolic gifts and ministries are no longer active and have not been since the completion of the Bible.

You first say I havent a clue because i say ceasationalist do not believe the gifts of the Spirit are still in effect, and then you affirm that they do not believe that spiritual gifts are still in effect.

Do you see the conflict in those two statements?

when you say "are you willing to learn?" i'm not sure what you are referring to

My statement above it what I mean when I said are you willing to learn. you reject what I say by affirming what i say. I think it is just me you are disagreeing with, not what i am saying. You actually confirmed what i said

I am willing to listen to what you have to say and hear your testimony of how God has worked in your life.

any time

 

[AnandaHya]

Are you telling me that you believe Zone does believe in spiritual gifts. If that were the case, she would not be a ceasationalist. Believe it or not words do actually have meanings assigned to them.

As far as my actions go, I readily admit they have been less than Christ-like, but I have confessed my faults to the Lord, and have once again been washed clean, free of sin. I will with Christ's help try to correct them (however, I will call a wolf a wolf when i see it approaching the flock for that is also what Christ would do)

As far as my doctrine ask away. What is it that you are unclear of?

1. do you teach a works salvation?

2. what is the biblical definition in your opinion of the five fold ministry since you disagree with what Zone posted from some self proclaimed apostles and prophets websites?

3. what are your motives for being on this forum? are you seeking to teach or seeking fellowship?

4. what do you believe Grace really means?

5. so you do sin and have to ask for forgiveness?

hmmm interesting...anyway those are the first five. lol my pastor tells me to limit my question to just a handful

 

[4runner]

1. do you teach a works salvation?

I guess that depends on the definition of works salvation? I believe that one must do more than make a mental accent to Christ as Savior, but must also make Him Lord of their life. I believe repentance is a change of heart, and not just a change of mind. I believe obedience will follow repentance if the repentance was genuine

2. what is the biblical definition in your opinion of the five fold ministry since you disagree with what Zone posted from some self proclaimed apostles and prophets websites?

I believe all 5 of the 5 fold ministries are still in effect, and will be until we (the church) come to unity in faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

3. what are your motives for being on this forum? are you seeking to teach or seeking fellowship?

Both. Although I have been false accused of being a self proclaimed prophet. I think that I more so fall in to the office of a teacher

4. what do you believe Grace really means?

God’s ability working in you and/or thru you to do what you could never do apart from Him

5. so you do sin and have to ask for forgiveness?

Yes, but I believe it is possible to live without sin through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, not to earn salvation, but because God has freed us from our sin. I am not there yet, but i honestly believe that God is able to get me there

hmmm interesting...anyway those are the first five. lol my pastor tells me to limit my question to just a handful

I think this is good ask some more

 

[AnandaHya]

You first say I havent a clue because i say ceasationalist do not believe the gifts of the Spirit are still in effect, and then you affirm that they do not believe that spiritual gifts are still in effect.

Do you see the conflict in those two statements?
My statement above it what I mean when I said are you willing to learn. you reject what I say by affirming what i say. I think it is just me you are disagreeing with, not what i am saying. You actually confirmed what i said

any time

no i'm not. 1. they still believe the Holy Spirit still works in the lives of believers but they do not call that spiritual gifts but blessings from God. which they are but I think they are spiritual gifts. its a word play thing. the only gifts they really deny is miracles, speaking in tongues and prophecy. they still believe in the spiritual gift of teaching and ministry, etc.they believe that we no longer need the office of prophet or apostle because the church foundation has been laid and it is no longer a child but mature and now we need to abide in faith, hope and love. which is found only in faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, hope in His return, and abiding in His love through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.



1 Corinthians 13:11-13
New King James Version (NKJV)
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

but do some research on your own, its too complicated to explain since I'm not a cessationist and would probably misrepresent them. click on the website and do the research and you will see there is more to it then just one word. labels are deceiving and are used to erect barriers between people and place others in tidy boxes and are not true to real life but imaginations that war against the knowledge of God which is to LOVE one another.

 

[4runner]

no i'm not. 1. they still believe the Holy Spirit still works in the lives of believers but they do not call that spiritual gifts but blessings from God.

Semantics. Not to be mean honestly, but i dont care what ceasationalist believe ask Zone.

Ask me more question about what i believe. I would love to clear that up for ya.

 

[AnandaHya]

ok for the most part I agree with you so far except if you would clarify the five fold ministry part.

that is the issue you will meet with resistance unless you back up your beliefs with scripture and tell us if you support the NAR organizaiton and other heretical ministries that have shown rotten and corrupt fruit. Sorry but I don't like Hinn and others who use God's word to get rich and gain worshipers for themselves.

are you even aware of what is being discussed?

I asked because I was not until it was brought to my attention a few months ago and you can research and see the lies being spread about God's word and His plan of salvation is being mishandled.

1. can you describe the duties of the various offices and why are they still relevant today?

2. do you know any apostles or prophets, can you name them if you do?

 

[Abiding]

Are you telling me that you believe Zone does believe in spiritual gifts. If that were the case, she would not be a ceasationalist. Believe it or not words do actually have meanings assigned to them.

As far as my actions go, I readily admit they have been less than Christ-like, but I have confessed my faults to the Lord, and have once again been washed clean, free of sin. I will with Christ's help try to correct them (however, I will call a wolf a wolf when i see it approaching the flock for that is also what Christ would do)

As far as my doctrine ask away. What is it that you are unclear of?

Ecclesiastical differences doesnt make a wolf, thats a little extreme. If you believe in Apostles and
Prophets for today just like the first century, Id say you were in danger. If you said they are here
but they play a lesser but important role today, that they assist the church locally...etc, and dont lord
it over people whatsoever...im possibly fine with that. But the NAR contridict scripture in many ways. And I think that is the concern. They are out to destroy the church. Some are in secret societies. So lets expose them rather than lesser issues between ourselves.

Salvation, grace, and a holy life is what its all about. Here presumptions, and fighting over how it all works has been an issue. Sad because noone will learn. But soon I hope things can come togather, and in fighting, it just never will. Well not as well anyway.

A view on how the Holyspirit works today is not a reason for calling someone a wolf either. The first
century will never repeat itself. But is the Holyspirit indwelling us, equipping us, etc. Well of coarse, maybe even more than the first century, although not as visible. Without the Spirit there would be no life.

 

[4runner]

ok for the most part I agree with you so far except if you would clarify the five fold ministry part.

that is the issue you will meet with resistance unless you back up your beliefs with scripture.

I was actually quoting scripture in my response

Ephesians 4
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:



This is my belief on the 5 fold ministry I do not believe we have come to unity in faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: do you?

and tell us if you support the NAR organizaiton and other heretical ministries that have shown rotten and corrupt fruit. Sorry but I don't like Hinn and others who use God's word to get rich and gain worshipers for themselves.

I do not like Hinn either He is a false prophet,. However i neither support or oppose NAR as i do not have enough info on them to make a decision.

are you even aware of what is being discussed?

Yes Zone believes anyone that think God can perfect them in this life is a heretic

I asked because I was not until it was brought to my attention a few months ago and you can research and see the lies being spread about God's word and His plan of salvation is being mishandled.

I may do that

 

[Consumed]

Ecclesiastical differences doesnt make a wolf, thats a little extreme. If you believe in Apostles and
Prophets for today just like the first century, Id say you were in danger. If you said they are here
but they play a lesser but important role today, that they assist the church locally...etc, and dont lord
it over people whatsoever...im possibly fine with that. But the NAR contridict scripture in many ways. And I think that is the concern. They are out to destroy the church. Some are in secret societies. So lets expose them rather than lesser issues between ourselves.

Salvation, grace, and a holy life is what its all about. Here presumptions, and fighting over how it all works has been an issue. Sad because noone will learn. But soon I hope things can come togather, and in fighting, it just never will. Well not as well anyway.

A view on how the Holyspirit works today is not a reason for calling someone a wolf either. The first
century will never repeat itself. But is the Holyspirit indwelling us, equipping us, etc. Well of coarse, maybe even more than the first century, although not as visible. Without the Spirit there would be no life.

Somethings I would like to say I can't describe how to into words but gets said anyway, that's a miracle right there for me. You tapping my line to God abiding??

 

[4runner]

Ecclesiastical differences doesnt make a wolf

I agree, but attacking every christian that they come across who speaks god's pure truth does

If you believe in Apostles and
Prophets for today just like the first century, Id say you were in danger. If you said they are here
but they play a lesser but important role today, that they assist the church locally...etc, and dont lord
it over people whatsoever...im possibly fine with that.

Good because i do believe that Apostles and prophets are still here but to assist as you say, not to Lord over anyone

But the NAR contridict scripture in many ways. And I think that is the concern. They are out to destroy the church. Some are in secret societies. So lets expose them rather than lesser issues between ourselves.

The crutch here is she is not just against NAR, she is against me and anyone else that teaches truth, holiness, and righteousness

Salvation, grace, and a holy life is what its all about. Here presumptions, and fighting over how it all works has been an issue. Sad because noone will learn. But soon I hope things can come togather, and in fighting, it just never will. Well not as well anyway.

I totally agree

A view on how the Holyspirit works today is not a reason for calling someone a wolf either. The first
century will never repeat itself. But is the Holyspirit indwelling us, equipping us, etc. Well of coarse, maybe even more than the first century, although not as visible. Without the Spirit there would be no life.

Actually I believe a greater pouring out of the holy Spirit than in the days of Acts are on its way, and every Apostolic prayer prayed by Paul and others in the N.T. will be fulfilled in this last day church

 

[AnandaHya]

mmm 4runner add "latter rain" movement to your online research sheet, just a suggestion.