Rapture True or False.

[TheDivineWatermark]

Of course it can...

started circa 70 A.D. - ends at some point in the future - never before; never again

Hi GaryA,

Another couple of questions regarding what you've put here ^ :


--do you believe that Daniel 12:1[,6-7,11] ("there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that same time") is speaking of the same time-frame that Jesus was referencing in Matthew 24:[15,]21?


--do you believe that Daniel 12:6-7's "time, times, and an half" is referring to the same time-frame that Daniel 7:25[,27,20b,21,22b] which has v.25 saying "a time and times and the dividing of time" ? (And, who do you believe v.20b is DESCRIBING?)

 

[soberxp]

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

That's the point I'm trying to make about people who follow Jesus, nothing for them is tribulation, in Christ we have peace.
But in the world we have tribulation.

We are not of the world.We need to overcome the tribulation.

No matter how bad the situation is, we have peace in Christ.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The subject in 1 Thess 4:17, is not rapture. You have to back up to verse 4:13, to identify the subject.

I'd say you have to back up a little further... to 3:13 "before [G1715] God"

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT: I'd say you have to back up a little further... to 3:13 "before [G1715 - emprosthen - en G1722 and pros G4314] God"...

...connecting back to Daniel 7:13 (see LXX) and its "LXX G4374 - prosphero - pros G4314 and phero G5342"





[that context is... UP; See also Rev4:4, 5:4, 5:6, 5:9 ("hast redeemed US...") ]

 

[cv5]

^ EDIT: I'd say you have to back up a little further... to 3:13 "before [G1715 - emprosthen - en G1722 and pros G4314] God"...

...connecting back to Daniel 7:13 (see LXX) and its "LXX G4374 - prosphero - pros G4314 and phero G5342"





[that context is... UP; See also Rev4:4, 5:4, 5:6, 5:9 ("hast redeemed US...") ]

Hear hear......

Dan 7:13
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

1Th 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1Th 3:13
To the end G1519 he may stablish G4741 your G5216 hearts G2588 unblameable G273 in G1722 holiness G42 before G1715 God, G2316 even G2532 our G2257 Father, G3962 at G1722 the coming G3952 of our G2257 Lord G2962 Jesus G2424 Christ G5547 with G3326 all G3956 his G846 saints. G40

G3326 - meta - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

The subject in 1 Thess 4:17, is not rapture. You have to back up to verse 4:13, to identify the subject. ...One needs to understand what this word, AIR, means In 1Thess 4:17. It does not mean sky or atmosphere...the rapture will not be automatic in selecting the ones being raptured,

I'd say you have to back up a little further... to 3:13 "before [G1715] God"

Ok, interesting, let me see IF I may not have my sequence 'in order' here:

The Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly ("in the air"?) Mystery!:

(1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!:
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From
Heaven! (Ephesians_1:19-23; Colossians_1:18; 1_Thessalonians_4:16-17!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming With A Shout, With the voice of an archangel,
And With The Trump of God! (1_Thessalonians_4:16!)

3) God (JESUS CHRIST) Will Bring With Him {those who Were With
Him In Heaven}, part Of His Own, those who are “asleep In JESUS!”
(2_Corinthians_5:8; Philippians_1:21-23; 1_Thessalonians_4:13 KJB!)

(4) CHRIST Descends With One archangel, Will resurrect those
asleep {in 3)} First, and Then, we “which are alive and remain,” {which
Is A Mystery!}, will be changed/all “incorruptible, And Caught Up”
together to meet The LORD in the air, in the “twinkling of an eye!”
(1_Thessalonians_4:16-17; 1_Corinthians_15:52-53!)

(5) CHRIST “Gathers [ ALL of ] His Body” To Himself, to Take them To Heaven...
(2_Thessalonians_2:1-3; 1_Corinthians_15:49; 2_Corinthians_12:2, 5:1, 2;
Ephesians_1:3, 20, 2:6; Philippians_3:20; 2_Timothy_4:18!)

6)...For The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For [ ALL of ] HIS Heavenly Body,
By The Head Himself!... (Romans_2:6, 16, 14:10-12;
1_Corinthians_3:8-15, 4:5, 6:20; 2_Corinthians_5:10;
Ephesians_6:8; Colossians_3:24-25!)

(7a) ...After Judgment, [ ALL of ] the GRACE assembly Is Then Presented as
A Glorious Church, To CHRIST Himself!... (Ephesians_5:27!)

(7b) ...And, Then (Before God) CHRIST Will Present [ ALL of ] His Body, holy and
unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father,
In Heaven, Where we Live Forever And Ever! * Amen!
(1_Thessalonians_3:13; Colossians_1:5, 22;
1_Corinthians_6:3; 2_Corinthians_5:1-2 KJB!)

Sound about right?

* see "fly to save soul?" post # 18

 

[cv5]

Ok, interesting, let me see IF I may not have my sequence 'in order' here:

The Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly ("in the air"?) Mystery!:

(1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!:
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From
Heaven! (Ephesians_1:19-23; Colossians_1:18; 1_Thessalonians_4:16-17!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming With A Shout, With the voice of an archangel,
And With The Trump of God! (1_Thessalonians_4:16!)

3) God (JESUS CHRIST) Will Bring With Him {those who Were With
Him In Heaven}, part Of His Own, those who are “asleep In JESUS!”
(2_Corinthians_5:8; Philippians_1:21-23; 1_Thessalonians_4:13 KJB!)

(4) CHRIST Descends With One archangel, Will resurrect those
asleep {in 3)} First, and Then, we “which are alive and remain,” {which
Is A Mystery!}, will be changed/all “incorruptible, And Caught Up”
together to meet The LORD in the air, in the “twinkling of an eye!”
(1_Thessalonians_4:16-17; 1_Corinthians_15:52-53!)

(5) CHRIST “Gathers [ ALL of ] His Body” To Himself, to Take them To Heaven...
(2_Thessalonians_2:1-3; 1_Corinthians_15:49; 2_Corinthians_12:2, 5:1, 2;
Ephesians_1:3, 20, 2:6; Philippians_3:20; 2_Timothy_4:18!)

6)...For The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For [ ALL of ] HIS Heavenly Body,
By The Head Himself!... (Romans_2:6, 16, 14:10-12;
1_Corinthians_3:8-15, 4:5, 6:20; 2_Corinthians_5:10;
Ephesians_6:8; Colossians_3:24-25!)

(7a) ...After Judgment, [ ALL of ] the GRACE assembly Is Then Presented as
A Glorious Church, To CHRIST Himself!... (Ephesians_5:27!)

(7b) ...And, Then (Before God) CHRIST Will Present His Body, holy and
unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father,
In Heaven, Where we Live Forever And Ever! * Amen!
(1_Thessalonians_3:13; Colossians_1:5, 22;
1_Corinthians_6:3; 2_Corinthians_5:1-2 KJB!)

Sound about right?

* see "fly to save soul?" post # 18

G1715 - emprosthen - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)

The KJV translates Strong's G1715 in the following manner: before (41x), in (one's) sight (2x), of (1x), against (1x), in the sight of (1x), in the presence of (1x), at (1x).

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. in front, before
   1. before, i.e. in that local region which is in front of a person or thing
   2. before, in the presence of, i.e. opposite to, over against one
   3. before, in the sight of
   4. before, denoting rank

1Th 3:13
To the end G1519 he may stablish G4741 your G5216 hearts G2588 unblameable G273 in G1722 holiness G42 before G1715 God, G2316 even G2532 our G2257 Father, G3962 at G1722 the coming G3952 of our G2257 Lord G2962 Jesus G2424 Christ G5547 with G3326 all G3956 his G846 saints. G40

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

the Rapture or Caught Away is an absolute Fact!
the debate is when the Rapture itself takes place.
that is where both truth and deception reside at.

 

[cv5]

that is where both truth and deception reside at.

Not if you decide to diligently study the matter.
When you do, pre-trib is the fact of the matter and is the ONLY possibility given the abundance of data....

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Not if you decide to diligently study the matter.
When you do, pre-trib is the fact of the matter and is the ONLY possibility given the abundance of data....

there's definitely going to be a gathering before the 144k evangelist have a last days revival for certain. i lean more mid-trib but easily can understand pre-trib viewpoints.

 

[cv5]

there's definitely going to be a gathering before the 144k evangelist have a last days revival for certain. i lean more mid-trib but easily can understand pre-trib viewpoints.

Just spend 3 months and read all of this buddy. Thats all I can say......

https://christianchat.com/search/779747/?q=70th&c[users]=TheDivineWatermark&o=date
https://christianchat.com/search/779748/?q=DOTL&c[users]=TheDivineWatermark&o=date
Search results for query: 2 thes 2 - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
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[The_Watchers_2017]

Just spend 3 months and read all of this buddy. Thats all I can say......

https://christianchat.com/search/779747/?q=70th&c[users]=TheDivineWatermark&o=date
https://christianchat.com/search/779748/?q=DOTL&c[users]=TheDivineWatermark&o=date
Search results for query: 2 thes 2 - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
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Search results for query: harpazo - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
Search results for query: birth pang - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
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(1) Search results for query: abomination - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
(1) Search results for query: seals - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

Thank You sir!

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

i do keep in mind the last 7, specifically, last 3 1/2 years, second half of the Tribulation, the emphasis is upon JEWS coming to Christ. even though we know during the last Revival [[ALL Nations]] will be represented, it's mostly directed at bringing JEWS to Yeshua. Clearly, the Gentile Period we are currently in will End. but nowhere states we aren't still on Earth technically when Tribulation begins or for some period between years 1 thru 3 1/2. so i am not thoroughly convinced it literally means before Tribulation begins. i don't think Day One of Tribulation will be any different than the Day before Tribulation begins. i don't think there's any spiritual evidence from Satan for a long period if not until the Second half of Tribulation where people will see anything different than the Day before Tribulation begins. That could go for a couple of years. Christians are only being persecuted by Atheist, not demon possessed robots of Satan with the Mark during first couple years of Tribulation.

i don't see a Rapture happening until Gentile Christians are nearing true danger. and that's not really happening until probably year 3 of Tribulation.

 

[annakat]

The Tribulation cannot have been for "a long while" and yet an event such as has never been before, nor will ever be again.

Which means that it is a totally unique event which lasts for a limited time only and is primarily related to the Jews: And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people [the Jews]: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people [the Jews] shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Dan 12:1) The only time we see Michael "standing up" is in Revelation chapter 12 when he and his angels cast out Satan and his evil angels from "heaven" (the atmospheric heaven). So Revelation (and the judgments in Revelation) but be connected to the Tribulation.

The word "Jacob" is often used for the nation of Israel or the twelve tribes (since the name "Israel" was applied to Jacob by Christ when He wrestled with him). So we read of "the time of Jacob's trouble" in Jeremiah 30:5-7 and once again the uniqueness of the Tribulation is stressed ("none is like it"): For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. And this corresponds to what Daniel wrote.

"Not of peace" connects this time to the deception of the Jews by the Antichrist, where he makes a covenant of peace, but brings about "desolations" instead: And he ["the prince that shall come = the Antichrist] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Dan 9:27)

So "the Tribulation" and the reign of the Antichrist run parallel to each other. We certainly do not have the full picture, but it is in the first half of Daniel's 70th week that Satan and the Antichrist are given 3 1/2 years to have total control of all the inhabitants of the world. But the Jews are his biggest target and this is primarily their Tribulation. This time is still in the future.

To claim that "the Church" goes through the Tribulation is LAUGHABLE. You will not find the word "church" or "churches" from Revelation 4 to Revelation 18 (where all the judgments and wrath of God are described in detail). Why? Because "God has not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess 5:9). There are also other reasons why the Rapture occurs BEFORE the Tribulation.

 

[annakat]

Michael does not stand up and deliver Jews only its every one who was found written in the book of life,
and that does not take place until you see Christ come through those clouds like he says The sun will be darkened and the moon will not give her light. then the sound of the trumpet the last trump when all these things be finished the angel told Daniel this is why he said Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give her light then they shall se the son of man coming on a cloud with great power and glory then he shall send his angels with the sound of the trumpet the last trump of rev and gather his elect from the four winds .Matthew 24.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

3) God (JESUS CHRIST) Will Bring With Him {those who Were With
Him In Heaven}, part Of His Own, those who are “asleep In JESUS!”

1_Thessalonians_4:13 KJB!)

This part I have a minor niggle with... lol.

Recall the phrase "and SO [/in this manner] shall WE ever be WITH [G4862 -UNIONed-with] the Lord"... where that "so [/in this manner]" refers to the "caught up together with them in the clouds to the meeting of the Lord in the air" (i.e. our Rapture / Snatch)...

Well, this must precede the part where it states, "shall God bring WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him [/Jesus]"...

...thus Paul doesn't want them (the Thessalonians) to be ignorant concerning the matter of "just HOW" it can be so that THEY ALSO will participate in the "bring WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him thing, at His Second Coming to the earth time-slot (when the Col3:4 thing happens, etc), and Paul says, THIS IS HOW... They'll be resurrected first before we'll all be caught up together at the same time [in one snatch-action], so they'll be there bodily [now] ALSO--the entire "Church which is His body"--so that God will also "bring with [UNIONed-with] Him" THEM (TOO) at His RETURN to the earth time-slot.




While it is indeed TRUE that "the dead in Christ" who "sleep through Jesus" are presently "AT HOME with the Lord" (without their glorified bodies yet... THAT awaits their being resurrected bodily / "shall RISE first"), this part of the verse that I'm pointing out is not speaking of Jesus bringing them with Him THEN (without their bodies, as in, in their spirits/souls), but rather "how it will be so" that God can "bring with [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him" THEM (also) if / since they've DIED BEFOREHAND.

"THIS IS HOW," Paul is explaining... because he does not want them to be ignorant of this matter. = )

 

[annakat]

The Bible is plain and clear about the rapture The bible says in I believe its first Corinthians
We Shall Not Proceed those who have fallen asleep in Christ all the dead from old testament to new testament.
for the dead in Christ shall rise first then we who are alive and Remain shall be caught up together to meet the lord in the air
and so we shall ever be with the lord caught up means the same thing as rapture its just a different word. Rapture means caught up

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@annakat 's Post #75,

First of all, welcome to CC... Nice to have you here.


As to your post #75,

CONSIDER...

It is helpful when viewing a particular phrase, like "thy people," to see how the word or phrase is used elsewhere WITHIN the SAME BOOK.

And here is what we find in the book of Daniel:


"thy people" (8x... in Daniel)


Daniel 9:15 -

And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.


Daniel 9:16 -

O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.


Daniel 9:19 -

O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.


Daniel 9:24 -

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Daniel 10:14 -

Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.


Daniel 11:14 -

And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south: also the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision; but they shall fall.


Daniel 12:1 (2x) -

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [<--first mention: Gen35:11 "singular"] even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.



This book is making use of this phrase ("thy people") to speak specifically of Israel... And the "time-prophecy" supplied in Dan9:24 connects with both Isaiah 27:9,12-13 (which is what connects with Matthew 24:29-31 at the "GREAT" trumpet--not "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]") as well as Romans 11:26-27[,25,15,12], all regarding "Israel"



____________


As to your post #77,

yes, the word "rapture" is from the Latin, and MEANS "caught-up / or caught-away" (in the English translations), the word "harpagēsometha" in Greek (G726)

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Rapture means caught up

Amen! And, Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome To Chat.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II).

Grace, Peace, And JOY!… + RICH Blessings

 

[Nehemiah6]

Michael does not stand up and deliver Jews only its every one who was found written in the book of life...

You have just contradicted what is written in Daniel 12:1.