The Heresy of Perfectionism

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C

Consumed

Guest
Perfection, though I'm not there these show me where I'm meant to get to a state of but only by the grace of God can we all if we open our hearts.
As any sees I try to keep love at the forefront of people's minds that it is such that should govern our hearts in all we do and say. I get alot of opposition to that not here so much openly, though sometimes do but even in my sphere of people here where I am. Defending the faith, rebuking people, correcting doctrine ok I see truth in that but how quick we forget this scripture in James 3.
1My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
2For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
3Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
4Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, anywhere the governor decides.
5Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasts great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindles!
6And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
7For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and has been tamed of mankind:
8But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
9Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the embodiment of
God.
10Out of the same mouth proceeds blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
11Does a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
12Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
13Who is a wise man and imbued with knowledge among you? let him show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14But if all of you have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15This wisdom descends not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
17But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be implored, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. 18And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
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A

Abiding

Guest
Jesus is the only person who has not sinned, well what about John the Baptist, becasue he also was FILLED with the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb. So there is a bit of a question. also if you say John the Baptist sinned, that means the Holy Spirit sinned becasue no-where do I read that the Holy Spirit was taken away from John the baptist! John the baptist sinned before he was Elijah, but that is another study... Let me adress the statement about Jesus was the only person who never sinned.. True! But Jesus in not the only one who CANNOT sin! ALL reborn cildren from God CANNOT sin... 1 John 3:9...Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. If you understand rebirth as God declared re-birth... Then you will also understand why ALL HOLY RE_BORN SAINTS CANNOT SIN!! Becasue the EXACT same Spirit that was in Jesus and John the Baptist is in ALL SAINTS!!! To say a child of God can sin is to make the Spirit of God a sinner! And d not come with the flesh thing!!! The flesh does not have a mind of his own! That mind that the flesh had that wanted to do sin, IS CHANGED TO A NEW MIND... That of GOD!!! The SEED that remain in a re-born person is the MIND OF GOD that remain in that same OLD flesh! Jesus had flesh EXACTLY like you!!! Ingerdient... 90%+ water... Water cannot sin it needs an EVIL THOUGHT to sin. God has no EVIL thoughts, but HOLY THOUGHTS, that is why they CANNOT sin. If you are not there yet, like me, then REPENT.. CHANGE YOUR MIND WITH THE HELP OF GOD!!!
So Jesus was the only one that did not sin, YES! Neither had John the baptist, but he did as Elijah, and neither CAN THE NEW COBUS, becasue God makes the NEW COBUS to be EXACTLY LIKE JESUS! And HE IS STILL THE ONE THAT CANNOT SIN!! God makes Cobus a NEW JESUS! A NEW CREATURE! the old is GONE! PASSE AWAY! DEAD! ONLY JESUS STILL LIVES IN THE NEW COBUS. That is IN CHRIST! Not this feeble... God looks at us through the blood of Jesus... That just prooves that you are on the wrong side of the blood... GO THROUGH THE NARROW GATE... The Blood is the NARROW GATE, and then you ARE IN GOD AND HE IN YOU!! How can you not understand this... If you passed THROUGH JESUS, you are NO LONGER HERE IN THE WORLD, YOU ARE IN HIM...AND IN HIM IS NO SIN.. IF YOU SIN YOU HAVE TO PASS THROUGH HIM!!! If you are in HIM HE IS IN YOU! AND NEITHER OF YOU CAN SIN< BECASUE THERE IS NO SIN THERE! THE SIN STAYED ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE CROSS! Nobody can sneak sin into JESUS! Come on nobody is this blind! LOOK ! IN CHRIST IS NO SIN!!!NONE, ZIP, FIKILELE, NIKS, HAZIGALO, FAGALO,
How can you do sin where there is none? If you are IN HIM THERE IS NO SIN! Just take it and make it your own.. IT IS FREE!


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Cobus, your putting a spin on the bible again. Your thing about John is just a plain made up story. The bible tells about all man and their born condition. Id pray those who use 1 John for their sinless perfection teaching would at least learn what John is saying..

Your wrong saying God gives us a new mind, Roman 12. And repenting wont renew it, its more than that.
My, you start with an idea you prefer to be true then find verses for support. Why? that just complicates.
Then the verses you use are lost to the intended meaning they were put there to teach you.

Consider this. IF you are a Christian, then you have been regenerated and God will give you grace that
will actively abide in you making in impossible to commit sin.

Ill say it again another way. If the seed of the gospel has germinated and so effected the heart to where
it has produced a love for holyness, and a hate for sin, it would be impossible for that new creation
while grace is active, to sin, ....why? because the seed remains.

Remember John is talking also to people who are influenced by gnostics, but we will leave that be. There
is alot being said here. Sinless perfection even tho on the surface it appears to say that, is not what it is
saying.

One more time Cobus. John is saying that a Christian has been regenerated, that new heart, and the
word of God that has died and renewed our soul, along with active grace in the heart cannot not sin.
Therefore it would not be possible for a Christian to make sin his active trade, or continually serve sin.
Because of this new nature.

But!!!! we still have our old nature, our carnal mind, and our own will. Thats why there will be no
sinless perfection. Paul said many times "rekon" the old man dead. He didnt say it was gone. In fact the opposite was taught. The emnity of the carnal mind will never bow to God and is incapable to do so. And
are sinful nature we keep till we shed these mortal bodies.

The point is to not live in the flesh, renew the carnal mind, captivate the thoughts, resist sin and self, and be under the control of the new nature, by the grace of God in the new man that wont sin, it cant, because it is born of God. So, if you become perfect it is because you live constantly every second under the control of the new nature by grace. You are dead to self, and you walk every second obeying Gods will....etc.

John is explaining something that is true. He is telling us what we should know and understand. He IS NOT
explaining a moment when God will ZAP a person and supernaturally raise him to perfection status, no far from it. His grace is sufficient.
 
C

Consumed

Guest
Abiding I only read the first couple sentences and it was like I got slapped across the back of my head, doh, we are all born into sin, but He who knew no sin become sin for us. Thanks, I received the slap humbly with thanks lol
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Jesus is the only person who has not sinned, well what about John the Baptist, becasue he also was FILLED with the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb. So there is a bit of a question. also if you say John the Baptist sinned, that means the Holy Spirit sinned becasue no-where do I read that the Holy Spirit was taken away from John the baptist! John the baptist sinned before he was Elijah, but that is another study... Let me adress the statement about Jesus was the only person who never sinned.. True! But Jesus in not the only one who CANNOT sin! ALL reborn cildren from God CANNOT sin... 1 John 3:9...Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. If you understand rebirth as God declared re-birth... Then you will also understand why ALL HOLY RE_BORN SAINTS CANNOT SIN!! Becasue the EXACT same Spirit that was in Jesus and John the Baptist is in ALL SAINTS!!! To say a child of God can sin is to make the Spirit of God a sinner! And d not come with the flesh thing!!! The flesh does not have a mind of his own! That mind that the flesh had that wanted to do sin, IS CHANGED TO A NEW MIND... That of GOD!!! The SEED that remain in a re-born person is the MIND OF GOD that remain in that same OLD flesh! Jesus had flesh EXACTLY like you!!! Ingerdient... 90%+ water... Water cannot sin it needs an EVIL THOUGHT to sin. God has no EVIL thoughts, but HOLY THOUGHTS, that is why they CANNOT sin. If you are not there yet, like me, then REPENT.. CHANGE YOUR MIND WITH THE HELP OF GOD!!!
So Jesus was the only one that did not sin, YES! Neither had John the baptist, but he did as Elijah, and neither CAN THE NEW COBUS, becasue God makes the NEW COBUS to be EXACTLY LIKE JESUS! And HE IS STILL THE ONE THAT CANNOT SIN!! God makes Cobus a NEW JESUS! A NEW CREATURE! the old is GONE! PASSE AWAY! DEAD! ONLY JESUS STILL LIVES IN THE NEW COBUS. That is IN CHRIST! Not this feeble... God looks at us through the blood of Jesus... That just prooves that you are on the wrong side of the blood... GO THROUGH THE NARROW GATE... The Blood is the NARROW GATE, and then you ARE IN GOD AND HE IN YOU!! How can you not understand this... If you passed THROUGH JESUS, you are NO LONGER HERE IN THE WORLD, YOU ARE IN HIM...AND IN HIM IS NO SIN.. IF YOU SIN YOU HAVE TO PASS THROUGH HIM!!! If you are in HIM HE IS IN YOU! AND NEITHER OF YOU CAN SIN< BECASUE THERE IS NO SIN THERE! THE SIN STAYED ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE CROSS! Nobody can sneak sin into JESUS! Come on nobody is this blind! LOOK ! IN CHRIST IS NO SIN!!!NONE, ZIP, FIKILELE, NIKS, HAZIGALO, FAGALO,
How can you do sin where there is none? If you are IN HIM THERE IS NO SIN! Just take it and make it your own.. IT IS FREE!


If John the baptist never sinned while he personally was on Earth, Scripture lied. Because scripture states there was only one sinless man who walked the eart and that was christ.

John did not say we who are born of God can not sin. He sais when we are abiding in Christ looking to him, seeking him out, looking to the spirit) we will not sin. This is what Paul said when he said if we look to the spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Niether Paul nor John said we will be sinless. John even said if we say we have no sin we are lieing to ourselves. and there is no truth in us (he said us, which would include him)

The lie that says a man of God can be sinless is a dangerous doctrine. We do not need any more pharisees walking the earth. we have enough of them already!
 
Jul 25, 2011
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"And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" 1 Peter 4:18
 
Jul 3, 2011
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The lie that says a man of God can be sinless is a dangerous doctrine.
Not only is it not dangerous it is a necessary truth. If you can believe God can save you from your sin then you will fall into the strong delusion that you can be saved in sin, which is what is impossible.

2nd Thessalonians 2
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
 
Jul 3, 2011
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Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull

The lie that says a man of God can be sinless is a dangerous doctrine.
A wife who is 85% faithful to her husband is not faithful at all. There is no such thing as part-time loyalty to Jesus Christ.
 
Jul 25, 2011
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Right, we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. There is no temptation that we are not able to bear. Jesus said go and sin no more. God is not unreasonable, He didn't ask us to do something that is impossible. Now, if we do sin, we have one who we can go to for forgiveness, but if we die in repentant sin, we are in blatant rebellion.

Ceasing from sin is not only possible, it is commanded.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
"And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" 1 Peter 4:18
yet who are the righteous? There are non, no not one who is righteous. for all have sinned and fall short.

Peter is talking about those who think they are righteous. because of it. some of them are not saved. some are 9because they realise they too are sinners. even though they do not do the grave sins others do)

the ungodly sinner? That would speak of all sinners who do not have God.

I am a sinner saved by grace. what are you?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Not only is it not dangerous it is a necessary truth. If you can believe God can save you from your sin then you will fall into the strong delusion that you can be saved in sin, which is what is impossible.

2nd Thessalonians 2
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
This is the lie straight from the pits of hell. The pharisees thought they were righteous. If they did not recieve Christ they are headed to hell. Why? Because they did not see the sin they had in their life. jesus even admited they were righteous people according to the law (over others) when he said unless our righteousness exceeds theres we have no hope. This is the danger of thinking we can be sinless. we will not see the sinwe are doing, and will keep on doing it thinking we are good. when in reality we are still sinners.

as for 2 thesalonians. what was the reson they were condemned?

Because they stopped sinning?

because they became perfect?

NO, because they DID NOT RECEIVE THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH!

keep on trying. Twisting scripture does not help your cause!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Right, we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. There is no temptation that we are not able to bear. Jesus said go and sin no more. God is not unreasonable, He didn't ask us to do something that is impossible. Now, if we do sin, we have one who we can go to for forgiveness, but if we die in repentant sin, we are in blatant rebellion.

Ceasing from sin is not only possible, it is commanded.
again. this person places himself under law. Keep trying to get saved by the law my friend. You will be disappointed when it comes tome to meet God.
 
Jul 3, 2011
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as for 2 thesalonians. what was the reson they were condemned?

Because they stopped sinning?

because they became perfect?

NO, because they DID NOT RECEIVE THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH!

keep on trying. Twisting scripture does not help your cause!
Yes, they believed not the truth that they could be saved (from their sin), just like you. I pray you, come out of your delusion, and receive the truth before you are damned.

I am being totally honest, I am praying for you.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
Dont be baited, dont feed them, it will just tire you, cause you to get tired and fall
and lose your witness.
after the first and second admonition, reject.
If a man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
resist!
 
Jul 3, 2011
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Dont be baited, dont feed them, it will just tire you, cause you to get tired and fall
and lose your witness.
after the first and second admonition, reject.
If a man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
resist!
Thank you Abiding God spoke that to me last night. I do not know if you noticed, but my tone did soften. I know I should let him continue in his delusion as Paul says in Titus 3:10-11, but I care for him
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Dont be baited, dont feed them, it will just tire you, cause you to get tired and fall
and lose your witness.
after the first and second admonition, reject.
If a man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
resist!
true. But God still tells us to expose fasle gospels. Other people read these threads. If we these people will not hear us. Maybe the others will.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
Thank you Abiding God spoke that to me last night. I do not know if you noticed, but my tone did soften. I know I should let him continue in his delusion as Paul says in Titus 3:10-11, but I care for him
I know u do bro but we still need to follow the handbook and follow our marching orders..right :)
Hes the head.