How to love your family, when God hates the nonelects?
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Who is speaking here? What is being addressed?! Do you even know or is this just the go to Calvinist trigger verse? I'm so tired of hearing this chapter of the Bible used to God created a people for no other reason that to destroy them.
Verses 1-9
I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
–Paul is speaking of the state of a nation, not individuals. He's talking about his countrymen. Paul is saying that it is not all physical Jews (children of the flesh) who will be saved, but those who are “children of the promise”–that is, all those who have faith like Abraham.
Verses 10-13
And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
"Here the word “election” is introduced with the story of Rebecca’s two sons, Jacob and Esau. Paul took care to say that both sons were born of “one man…our father Isaac.” This means that both Jacob and Esau were physical descendants of Abraham. Esau was the eldest; nevertheless God elected Jacob as the one through whom would come the Savior. Please note that the election did not elect Jacob the man to salvation, but it did elect the nation of Jacob to bring the promised Seed–Jesus Christ.
Therefore, this passage does not say that the man Jacob was eternally saved, or that the man Esau was eternally damned. Neither does it say that every descendant of Jacob would be saved, or every descendant of Esau would be damned.
It simply tells us that God elected that Jesus would be born through Jacob’s descendants rather than Esau’s, proving that God can choose whomever He wants through whom to do His will. God proved that He was not bound by the traditions of men to choose the eldest son (and Isaac’s favorite son), but He has authority to choose whomever He wishes according to His own will.
“I have loved you,” says the LORD. “Yet you say, ‘In what way have You loved us?’ Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” Says the LORD. “ Yet Jacob I have loved; But Esau I have hated..."
"it should be clear that the Lord was speaking of 2 nations — Israel and Edom (Esau’s descendants). God was not speaking of the two men Jacob and Esau; both men were long dead. Nor is God saying He chose one race for salvation and another race for damnation. However, God DID choose (elect) one nation through whom to bring the Savior into the world (this had nothing to do with personal salvation.)"
These "go to" Calvinist verses have NOTHING to do with individual salvation. It is talking about nations. Read in context it makes sense. You don't make a doctrine out of one or two verses in the Bible. Context, it's important.
These uneducated prunes, actually think, THEY REPLACED the Jews!
You do seem to think so .
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Wrong.
First, it would be impossible for me to convey how little it means to me what you care or don't care about.
Second, the children of the promise are they who are/will be saved and given true faith: the elect, comprised of both Jews and Gentiles, not just Jews - all those saved by Christ. Faith is reckoned to them in the same manner that faith was reckoned to Abraham, it being a gift from God. It was not of, from, or by, Abrham, neither by the elect, but of God. Do you see the " this blessedness" part?
That means it was given to Abraham, it did NOT come from Abraham. It was a blessing to him and them because it was a gift.
[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Third, I'm not in the mood right to have to go through and refute all of your invalid assumption since they began from
a corrupted foundation which has propagated itself through them. When you get the faith part straightened out (see above correction), come back and we can discuss further then.
However, should I feel a sudden uncontrollable urge to make myself frustrated and aggravated, I might reply later to a few of your other
incorrect interpretations, but the above should occupy you for a while. You might just have to actually do some in-depth independent researching and thinking on your own to figure it out instead of just falling back upon what you've been told.
First, it would be impossible for me to convey how little it means to me what you care or don't care about.
Second, the children of the promise are they who are/will be saved and given true faith: the elect, comprised of both Jews and Gentiles, not just Jews - all those saved by Christ. Faith is reckoned to them in the same manner that faith was reckoned to Abraham, it being a gift from God. It was not of, from, or by, Abrham, neither by the elect, but of God. Do you see the " this blessedness" part?
That means it was given to Abraham, it did NOT come from Abraham. It was a blessing to him and them because it was a gift.
[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Third, I'm not in the mood right to have to go through and refute all of your invalid assumption since they began from
a corrupted foundation which has propagated itself through them. When you get the faith part straightened out (see above correction), come back and we can discuss further then.
However, should I feel a sudden uncontrollable urge to make myself frustrated and aggravated, I might reply later to a few of your other
incorrect interpretations, but the above should occupy you for a while. You might just have to actually do some in-depth independent researching and thinking on your own to figure it out instead of just falling back upon what you've been told.
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It's not wrong!! Paul tells us who he is talking to, his countrymen. He uses the word.
We're all adults here. If we're going to converse we converse on a level of respect.
He is speaking to the Jews here all the way through chapter 11. He's talking about his people, the chosen people. He's explaining that they aren't saved just because they are the chosen people. Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Everyone is saved the same way, the same way Abraham was.
Again we're adults. We're going to talk like mature adults. I asked IC if he believed in TULIP and he skipped that post totally. You and he have both been proven wrong with Scripture by several here. And you're getting nastier in your replies.
Don't make this personal. I have pastors in my family, I have been in evangelism. That is why I know what you are saying is wrong and which Scriptures to use to prove that it is wrong.
We're all adults here. If we're going to converse we converse on a level of respect.
He is speaking to the Jews here all the way through chapter 11. He's talking about his people, the chosen people. He's explaining that they aren't saved just because they are the chosen people. Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Everyone is saved the same way, the same way Abraham was.
Again we're adults. We're going to talk like mature adults. I asked IC if he believed in TULIP and he skipped that post totally. You and he have both been proven wrong with Scripture by several here. And you're getting nastier in your replies.
Don't make this personal. I have pastors in my family, I have been in evangelism. That is why I know what you are saying is wrong and which Scriptures to use to prove that it is wrong.
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These are those whom he was addressing - not Israel.
[Rom 1:7, KJV]
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. ...
"beloved of God": the elect; "saints": those saved; "grace to you and peace from God": those who have been justified by Christ
Really?
From your post #322:
"Do you even know or is this just the go to Calvinist trigger verse? I'm so tired of hearing this chapter of the Bible used to God created a people for no other reason that to destroy them."
The chosen people of God are His elect, not earthly Jews just because they are of earthly Israel. The elect and non-elect (yes, I used non-elect - it can be placed in front of any word to serve as "not") are the only designations that matter - not Jew or Gentile.
[Gal 3:28 KJV]
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
[Col 3:11 KJV]
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.
I will if you and others on the site will. Perhaps I was too caustic but being denigrated out of hand, because of one's beliefs becomes annoying after a while.
I don't know what you're talking about. As far as I know, I have not been proven wrong. If I have, show me where.
Perhaps you and they are the ones who are wrong - unless you believe that Christ alone is the beginning and end of salvation, with no contribution from man either possible or permitted, then if you don't believe that, most definitely, you are the ones who are in the wrong.
Paul was the minister of Christ to the Gentiles, not to the Jews.
He is speaking to the Gentiles about the Jews, using them as an illustration of God's sovereignty to save whomsoever He has chosen to save. Only a remnant of earthly Jews will be saved but because they are of the elect. God divorced the nation of Israel due to their spiritual fornication with other gods and therefore their special relationship with Him as a nation in terms of salvation was ended by that divorce.
As I clearly pointed out in my prior post, Abraham's faith was reckoned to him by God as a gift. It was not of Abraham's doing but of God's. Did you not see the verse I posted, or if you did, why do you not understand it? Here it is again:
[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Paul was primarily addressing the elect Gentiles, not the Jews, but hoping some of the elect Jews might also hear the gospel and take to heart the gospel message: that God might use Paul to edify those Jews who might be of the elect in order that some of them become saved.
[Rom 11:13,14 KJV]
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.
[Rom 15:16 KJV] 16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
You make it personal when you and others denigrate Calvinists - which is often.
Your post # 309:
"Honestly, as judgmental and hypocritical as the average Calvinist, are to the very inner core of their misaligned soul, it's hilarious to see them use the term, "non-Elect.""
What I'm saying is not wrong, nor is it possible that it could be wrong. Why? Because it is based exclusively upon Christ as Saviour and not man, which, those of your ilk try to disavow. That Christ alone is Saviour, is the Gospel in its totality.
Whether you recognize it or not, your belief, in effect, tries to tear the title of Saviour away from Christ and bestow it upon
man instead.
[Rom 1:7, KJV]
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. ...
"beloved of God": the elect; "saints": those saved; "grace to you and peace from God": those who have been justified by Christ
Really?
From your post #322:
"Do you even know or is this just the go to Calvinist trigger verse? I'm so tired of hearing this chapter of the Bible used to God created a people for no other reason that to destroy them."
The chosen people of God are His elect, not earthly Jews just because they are of earthly Israel. The elect and non-elect (yes, I used non-elect - it can be placed in front of any word to serve as "not") are the only designations that matter - not Jew or Gentile.
[Gal 3:28 KJV]
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
[Col 3:11 KJV]
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.
I will if you and others on the site will. Perhaps I was too caustic but being denigrated out of hand, because of one's beliefs becomes annoying after a while.
I don't know what you're talking about. As far as I know, I have not been proven wrong. If I have, show me where.
Perhaps you and they are the ones who are wrong - unless you believe that Christ alone is the beginning and end of salvation, with no contribution from man either possible or permitted, then if you don't believe that, most definitely, you are the ones who are in the wrong.
Paul was the minister of Christ to the Gentiles, not to the Jews.
He is speaking to the Gentiles about the Jews, using them as an illustration of God's sovereignty to save whomsoever He has chosen to save. Only a remnant of earthly Jews will be saved but because they are of the elect. God divorced the nation of Israel due to their spiritual fornication with other gods and therefore their special relationship with Him as a nation in terms of salvation was ended by that divorce.
As I clearly pointed out in my prior post, Abraham's faith was reckoned to him by God as a gift. It was not of Abraham's doing but of God's. Did you not see the verse I posted, or if you did, why do you not understand it? Here it is again:
[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Paul was primarily addressing the elect Gentiles, not the Jews, but hoping some of the elect Jews might also hear the gospel and take to heart the gospel message: that God might use Paul to edify those Jews who might be of the elect in order that some of them become saved.
[Rom 11:13,14 KJV]
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.
[Rom 15:16 KJV] 16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
You make it personal when you and others denigrate Calvinists - which is often.
Your post # 309:
"Honestly, as judgmental and hypocritical as the average Calvinist, are to the very inner core of their misaligned soul, it's hilarious to see them use the term, "non-Elect.""
What I'm saying is not wrong, nor is it possible that it could be wrong. Why? Because it is based exclusively upon Christ as Saviour and not man, which, those of your ilk try to disavow. That Christ alone is Saviour, is the Gospel in its totality.
Whether you recognize it or not, your belief, in effect, tries to tear the title of Saviour away from Christ and bestow it upon
man instead.
The thread "Three Questions for Calvinists" post 246 you have the same convo you and I just had. In fact in deeper detail than I gave. Post 251 same point I just made, yet you are acting like this is the first time you heard it.
I did not write post 309! Post 322 is exactly as I said. Calvinists use only one part of the text, one verse. The chapter is talking to and about the Jews. And it is misused by Calvinists and others trying to say the church replaced the Jews. Both are wrong, the verse is twisted to mean something it does not. Totally true and adult comment. I and at least one other poster have called you out on these verses and you told them you didn't understand what they meant. The chapter is about the Jews, a nation, not individuals.
God tells us to even love our enemies so that we will be like Him.......
Matthew5:
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Matthew5:
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
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Part I
And you continue to say that Romans was written to the Jews, I respond that it wasn't. So, each time you make that claimn to me, I will reply/refute it with mine. And I was thinking the same about you - that you were duplicating a prior discussion.
Chapter 9 was addressed to the elect which used Israel/the Jews, to demonstrate salvation doctrine. We can
see that it was to the elect by the below verse. See the "even us" in Rom 9:24? The "us" represents the elect and were they who
Paul was addressing, not the Jews.
[Rom 9:24 KJV] 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
You are correct, 309 was not written by you. My mistake.
Maybe from your standpoint it is an adult comment accusing someone of twisting and abusing scripture, but to me it is extremely derogatory, and a direct insult, although, apparently, for some reason, you deem it as appropriate.
Do you see in the above, "the children of the flesh, these ARE NOT the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed"? No Jew is of the seed simply because they are a Jew, nor were they ever intended by God to be of the seed because the are of the physical linage of Jacob. God's promise was of salvation, and not of a linage that would bring forth a Saviour. It was always intended to be to those who would be in Christ (the elect) - they, and they alone, are the true spiritual seed unto salvation. So, there was no replacement, but rather fulfillment.
The elect Jews will be saved just as any of the elect are: in Christ. Through Christ, the distinction between Jew and Gentile has become meaningless- the only distinction of consequence is of the elect and the non-elect.
God did not create a people just to destroy them - but nevertheless, the Jews stand before God on exactly the same grounds as everyone else does, and it is God who will levy the judgment of, and the punishment for, sin, which punishment is eternal death, and pertains to both Jew or Gentile alike.
[Rom 6:23 KJV] 23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
So then do you think that all of the Jews, from Abraham until the end of time are to be saved, because that is the implication of what you are saying. Otherwise, what does it mean to be a Jew? What special blessing will God now give to them? If not salvation for all, then what? Being a Jew effectively becomes meaningless. As the below tells us (in Paul's letter to the Galatians, who by the way,
most likely included both Jews AND Gentiles), Abraham's seed are those who are in Christ not those who are of any particular linage or nation.
[Gal 3:29 KJV] 29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
And you continue to say that Romans was written to the Jews, I respond that it wasn't. So, each time you make that claimn to me, I will reply/refute it with mine. And I was thinking the same about you - that you were duplicating a prior discussion.
Chapter 9 was addressed to the elect which used Israel/the Jews, to demonstrate salvation doctrine. We can
see that it was to the elect by the below verse. See the "even us" in Rom 9:24? The "us" represents the elect and were they who
Paul was addressing, not the Jews.
[Rom 9:24 KJV] 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
You are correct, 309 was not written by you. My mistake.
Maybe from your standpoint it is an adult comment accusing someone of twisting and abusing scripture, but to me it is extremely derogatory, and a direct insult, although, apparently, for some reason, you deem it as appropriate.
Do you see in the above, "the children of the flesh, these ARE NOT the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed"? No Jew is of the seed simply because they are a Jew, nor were they ever intended by God to be of the seed because the are of the physical linage of Jacob. God's promise was of salvation, and not of a linage that would bring forth a Saviour. It was always intended to be to those who would be in Christ (the elect) - they, and they alone, are the true spiritual seed unto salvation. So, there was no replacement, but rather fulfillment.
The elect Jews will be saved just as any of the elect are: in Christ. Through Christ, the distinction between Jew and Gentile has become meaningless- the only distinction of consequence is of the elect and the non-elect.
God did not create a people just to destroy them - but nevertheless, the Jews stand before God on exactly the same grounds as everyone else does, and it is God who will levy the judgment of, and the punishment for, sin, which punishment is eternal death, and pertains to both Jew or Gentile alike.
[Rom 6:23 KJV] 23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
So then do you think that all of the Jews, from Abraham until the end of time are to be saved, because that is the implication of what you are saying. Otherwise, what does it mean to be a Jew? What special blessing will God now give to them? If not salvation for all, then what? Being a Jew effectively becomes meaningless. As the below tells us (in Paul's letter to the Galatians, who by the way,
most likely included both Jews AND Gentiles), Abraham's seed are those who are in Christ not those who are of any particular linage or nation.
[Gal 3:29 KJV] 29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Part II
No. It is clearly speaking about those whom God had chosen to have mercy on and those whom He had chosen to not have mercy on.
It was God's divine prerogative and good pleasure to give salvation to whomsoever He was pleased to give it to, with no justification or explanations for His choices required nor can be demanded of Him.
Jacob was representative of the elect, and was used by God to demonstrate the eternal salvation of the elect.
[Rom 9:11, 13 KJV]
11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth ...
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
When God said (above) that He loves or hates someone, it is relative to the eternal, not the temporal.
[Rom 9:15-16 KJV]
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
[Rom 9:18, 20, 22-24 KJV]
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth. ...
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus? ...
22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Regarding the nation of Israel's position with God:
[Jer 3:8 KJV]
8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
Regarding the possibility that God would take Israel again to be His wife, per God's own law, He would not do so.
[Deu 24:3-4 KJV]
3 And [if] the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth [it] in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her [to be] his wife;
4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that [is] abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance.
Regarding the replacement of Israel, Israel was intended by God only to be an earthly representation of spiritual Israel - the Israel of God, at which, they failed completely to achieve. However, spiritual Israel, not earthly Israel, was, and will always be the true Israel and can never fail because it was brought through Christ.
[Rom 9:24-25 KJV]
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
So, since I see you did not register disagreement that Abraham's faith was not of Abraham's doing, but rather reckoned to him, I assume you are now in agreement with it. That being the case, we can then also understand that since not everyone
has, or will have true faith, it must mean that unlike Abraham, they were not chosen to have it. Therefore, those who do have it, have it, only because they were specifically chosen to have it, just as Abraham was so chosen, giving to them also the faith of Abraham. This must mean that only certain have been selected for salvation - making them the elect - since true faith is a fruit of, and an accompaniment to salvation.
[Rom 4:16 KJV] 16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
No. It is clearly speaking about those whom God had chosen to have mercy on and those whom He had chosen to not have mercy on.
It was God's divine prerogative and good pleasure to give salvation to whomsoever He was pleased to give it to, with no justification or explanations for His choices required nor can be demanded of Him.
Jacob was representative of the elect, and was used by God to demonstrate the eternal salvation of the elect.
[Rom 9:11, 13 KJV]
11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth ...
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
When God said (above) that He loves or hates someone, it is relative to the eternal, not the temporal.
[Rom 9:15-16 KJV]
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
[Rom 9:18, 20, 22-24 KJV]
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth. ...
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus? ...
22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Regarding the nation of Israel's position with God:
[Jer 3:8 KJV]
8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
Regarding the possibility that God would take Israel again to be His wife, per God's own law, He would not do so.
[Deu 24:3-4 KJV]
3 And [if] the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth [it] in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her [to be] his wife;
4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that [is] abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance.
Regarding the replacement of Israel, Israel was intended by God only to be an earthly representation of spiritual Israel - the Israel of God, at which, they failed completely to achieve. However, spiritual Israel, not earthly Israel, was, and will always be the true Israel and can never fail because it was brought through Christ.
[Rom 9:24-25 KJV]
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
So, since I see you did not register disagreement that Abraham's faith was not of Abraham's doing, but rather reckoned to him, I assume you are now in agreement with it. That being the case, we can then also understand that since not everyone
has, or will have true faith, it must mean that unlike Abraham, they were not chosen to have it. Therefore, those who do have it, have it, only because they were specifically chosen to have it, just as Abraham was so chosen, giving to them also the faith of Abraham. This must mean that only certain have been selected for salvation - making them the elect - since true faith is a fruit of, and an accompaniment to salvation.
[Rom 4:16 KJV] 16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[Luk 18:7 KJV] 7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
[Rom 8:33 KJV] 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.
[Tit 1:1 KJV] 1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
[1Pe 1:2 KJV] 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
[Col 3:12 KJV] 12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
[Rom 8:33 KJV] 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.
[Tit 1:1 KJV] 1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
[1Pe 1:2 KJV] 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
[Col 3:12 KJV] 12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
No, I know all the proof texts of Calvinism. Now either God is wrong or you are. Carefully consider the outsider and why we struggle with what you believe.
Rev 22 17- The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
I have said in the other thread I have a German Shepard. She knows when I say "Come!" I mean what I say. But she also knows that even if she has been bad, she can come to me. She knows I will not punish her for coming to me. That is how strongly I want her to obey when I say come.
Now imagine if I take her and tie her to the door and give the same command to "COME!" She cannot, she is not capable. Not because she cannot obey but because I have created the situation that she cannot obey me. How cruel and abusive is that?! Now if I were to go over and strike her for not heeding my command to come, what sort of human being am I? She is only doing what I made her do. Because of what I did, she cannot obey.
And this is the way the outsider sees Calvins God. Why would God say "Come,Obey, Repent, Turn" if it's not possible? None of those verses should be there. God would be cruel and unjust if Calvin were right.
No oddly enough I didn't see the revived post until after I made my comment. You cannot refute what I'm saying without arguing with the Gospel itself. Paul tells who he is talking about and gives context in the first few verses. So you can say night and day it doesn't but the proof is written there in black and white. He's speaking of his countrymen, the same that Romans 11 is speaking to the Jews.
Yes, I understand, but if you stand by Calvin then that is what he did to come to his conclusions. He was just utterly wrong. He was stained with too much Catholic teaching. Yet even the Catholics agree in free will. The verses are direct and clear that man has a choice. So I can say I'm not going after you but Calvin but if you espouse his beliefs it will become personal to you.
Yes, we agree that just being a Jew doesn't save a person. But Romans 11 says they can be restored. That God is able and willing to restore them if they... repent. So even the chosen people have a choice. When the Jews rebelled, God used the Gentile "to make the jealous" so they would return. All that involves choice. Sorry, there is no denying that man has free will, that he can choose.
Well, Calvin believes He did. So if you don't I'm glad. But again Romans 11 says God can and will restore the Jews. And He will do so because He will reveal Himself to them and they will believe, the same as we have.
Some have preached that all Israel will be saved means all Jews. Though all my years growing up we believe a remnant of Jews will be saved. I haven't yet changed my mind on that stance.
Yes, I understand, but if you stand by Calvin then that is what he did to come to his conclusions. He was just utterly wrong. He was stained with too much Catholic teaching. Yet even the Catholics agree in free will. The verses are direct and clear that man has a choice. So I can say I'm not going after you but Calvin but if you espouse his beliefs it will become personal to you.
Yes, we agree that just being a Jew doesn't save a person. But Romans 11 says they can be restored. That God is able and willing to restore them if they... repent. So even the chosen people have a choice. When the Jews rebelled, God used the Gentile "to make the jealous" so they would return. All that involves choice. Sorry, there is no denying that man has free will, that he can choose.
Well, Calvin believes He did. So if you don't I'm glad. But again Romans 11 says God can and will restore the Jews. And He will do so because He will reveal Himself to them and they will believe, the same as we have.
Some have preached that all Israel will be saved means all Jews. Though all my years growing up we believe a remnant of Jews will be saved. I haven't yet changed my mind on that stance.