water baptism in Jesus' Name.

[GRACE_ambassador]

Faith is not just trust, but also has works. Read James 2:14-16.

Hi Wayne, and thanks in advance for listening - which ( A, B, or C ) should I choose?:

"faith PLUS works"?

( God's Context Of ) prophecy/covenant-law Scriptures, Spoken By Christ on earth
To Twelve apostles for the Twelve tribes Israel:

I have decided to Follow ( The earthly ) Jesus?

A) Do I follow Him, and the doctrine He Spoke as The:

Humble Christ, on the earth, To Israel, 12 apostles, Under The Law/covenants
/Prophecy:

1) Repent (change mind about sin/agree With God "it is Wrong!") or perish
(Luk 13:3,5 Mar 1:4 24:47)
+
2) believe the gospel of the kingdom (Mat 4:23, 9:35, 24:14; Mar 1:14,15)
+
3) be water baptized "For the remission of sin" (Mar 1:4 Luk 3:3, 7:29:30, 24:47;
Act 2:38)
+
4) "show works meet for repentance" (Mat 3:8), because,
+
5) "to the twelve tribes of Israel," "faith Without works is dead"
(James 1:1, 2:17,26)
+
6) "keep the commandments" to "enter life" (Mat 19:17)
+
7) "one thing thou lackest...sell ALL/take up cross/follow Jesus"
(Mar 10:17-23)
+
8) pray as a watchman, for Great Tribulation, man of sin, son of perdition, and
signs of the end times, and Second Coming?

A) Do I follow His earthly prophecy "faith PLUS works" program of covenants and law?
( OT, Mat - John, Heb - Rev ) or:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

"Grace Through faith"?

B) Do I follow Him As The Risen And Glorified "Head Of His Church" and ask:

I have decided to Follow ( The Heavenly ) LORD Jesus?

And, His Heavenly Pure Grace Program, According To The Revelation Of The Mystery?
(His Doctrine in Romans - Philemon)

Of course, Under God's Other Context Of Grace for The ( Heavenly ) ONE Body
Of Christ, Which began with ( ONE apostle ) Paul, Baptized By The ONE Spirit,
as the first 'member' of the ONE New man...
(Ephesians 2:15; 1 Timothy 1:16; Romans 11:13; Ephesians 4:5; 1 Corinthians 12:13),

...it is ( as Paul states 21 x ) "But Now":

1) Have repentance toward God (change mind about sin/agree With God "it is Wrong!")
(Acts 20:21)
+
2) Have faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21), and trust/believe The Gospel
Of The Grace Of God: His Death ( ALL-Sufficient Work On The Cross ), Burial, And
Resurrection, According To The Scripture (Ephesians 2:5-9; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4)
+
3) Acknowledge I am Spiritually Baptized By The ONE Baptism Of The Holy Spirit
Into The ONE (Spiritual Organism) Body Of Christ, Seated In the Heavenlies
(Ephesians 4:5; Colossians 2:12; Galatians 3:27; Romans 6:3-4; 1 Corinthians 12:13)
+
4) Acknowledge Christ Is Living in me, so I allow Him to, through me:
+
5) To Fulfil:

All Of His Law, In ONE Word: ►► love ◄◄ thy neighbor
as thyself!" (Galatians 5:14; Romans 13:8-10)
+
6) Study God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided to show myself "Approved Unto God"
(2 Timothy 2:15), and all the rest of these Bible study rules!
+
7) Work with my hands to "give to them in need," and the LORD "shall supply all my need"
(Ephesians 4:28; 1 Thessalonians 4:11-12; 2 Thessalonians 3:10-12; 1 Timothy 5:8)
+
8) Be a humble prayer warrior and:
"...look, watch, and Patiently WAIT For..." = The LORD Jesus Christ!
(2 Thessalonians 2:1; Romans 8:18-19; Romans 8:23; Romans 8:25; 1 Corinthians 1:7;
Ephesians 6:12-18; Philippians 3:20; Colossians 4:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 1:10;
1 Thessalonians 5:5-11; Titus 2:13)
+
9) Put on the FULL armour of God and stand, in the spiritual warfare I wrestle with
(Ephesians 6:10-18)
+
10)
Eph 6:19 "And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I
may open my mouth boldly, to make known the Mystery Of The Gospel,"
+
11)
Eph 3:9 "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of The Mystery, which from the
beginning of the world hath been hid in God, Who created all things by Jesus Christ"
+
12) Acknowledge that I am going to give an account at Judgment (1 Corinthians 3:8-15;
Romans 14:12), at my Heavenly Home-Going ( Great GRACE Departure! )

According to these and all the details of God's Sound Doctrinal Blueprint In
Romans Through Philemon? (1 Timothy 1:10; 2 Timothy 4:3; Titus 1:9):

Titus 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

Or:

C) Do I speak after following the Many, who homogenize A) + B) into
Massive Confusion?

Final question would be: Which Option, Under Grace Today, should I take
To Honor and Glorify God, Who Plainly and Clear Says in Romans 11:6:

"And if By Grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise​

Grace is no more Grace. But if it be of works, then is it​

no more Grace: otherwise work is no more work."​

Precious friend(s), thanks again. I appreciate all your prayerful and careful
consideration of this Eternally Important Matter.

Amen.

 

[Blain]

I have been baptized twice but I want to get baptized one more time except this time it going to be Jesus himself who does it

 

[Nehemiah6]

The definition you have faith is the same definition for hope. Hope is trust. Faith is not just trust, but also has works

Good works FOLLOW saving faith, but try not to confuse faith and works.

Abraham BELIEVED God and it was imputed to him for righteousness. That was many years before he prepared to sacrifice Isaac (which James brings up in his epistle). So Abraham was justified by faith IN THE SIGHT OF GOD, but in the eyes of men he was justified when he placed Isaac on the altar.

 

[Lamar]

Good works FOLLOW saving faith, but try not to confuse faith and works.

Abraham BELIEVED God and it was imputed to him for righteousness. That was many years before he prepared to sacrifice Isaac (which James brings up in his epistle). So Abraham was justified by faith IN THE SIGHT OF GOD, but in the eyes of men he was justified when he placed Isaac on the altar.

"So Abraham was justified by faith IN THE SIGHT OF GOD, but in the eyes of men he was justified when he placed Isaac on the altar"

You are quite wrong.

This is the text:

9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”

“Here I am,” he replied.

12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

What did God know? "Now I know that you fear God,"
When and how did God know it? "because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

Therefore:

And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.

credit
verb
credited; crediting; credits
transitive verb
1 to trust in the truth of : BELIEVE
2 to supply goods on credit to
3 archaic : to bring credit or honor upon
4 to enter upon the credit side of an account
5 to place an amount to the credit
6 to consider usually favorably as the source, agent, or performer of an action or the possessor of a trait
credits him with an excellent sense of humor

7 to attribute to some person

God gave Abraham credit for his faith but all credit must come due.

 

[Lamar]

I have been baptized twice but I want to get baptized one more time except this time it going to be Jesus himself who does it

Sorry but Paul said we are all of one baptism.
You have had enough.
And remember you only get one body, one hope and one faith.
Don't be greedy.

 

[Lamar]

Hi Wayne, and thanks in advance for listening - which ( A, B, or C ) should I choose?:

"faith PLUS works"?

( God's Context Of ) prophecy/covenant-law Scriptures, Spoken By Christ on earth
To Twelve apostles for the Twelve tribes Israel:

I have decided to Follow ( The earthly ) Jesus?

A) Do I follow Him, and the doctrine He Spoke as The:

Humble Christ, on the earth, To Israel, 12 apostles, Under The Law/covenants
/Prophecy:

1) Repent (change mind about sin/agree With God "it is Wrong!") or perish
(Luk 13:3,5 Mar 1:4 24:47)
+
2) believe the gospel of the kingdom (Mat 4:23, 9:35, 24:14; Mar 1:14,15)
+
3) be water baptized "For the remission of sin" (Mar 1:4 Luk 3:3, 7:29:30, 24:47;
Act 2:38)
+
4) "show works meet for repentance" (Mat 3:8), because,
+
5) "to the twelve tribes of Israel," "faith Without works is dead"
(James 1:1, 2:17,26)
+
6) "keep the commandments" to "enter life" (Mat 19:17)
+
7) "one thing thou lackest...sell ALL/take up cross/follow Jesus"
(Mar 10:17-23)
+
8) pray as a watchman, for Great Tribulation, man of sin, son of perdition, and
signs of the end times, and Second Coming?

A) Do I follow His earthly prophecy "faith PLUS works" program of covenants and law?
( OT, Mat - John, Heb - Rev ) or:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

"Grace Through faith"?

B) Do I follow Him As The Risen And Glorified "Head Of His Church" and ask:

I have decided to Follow ( The Heavenly ) LORD Jesus?

And, His Heavenly Pure Grace Program, According To The Revelation Of The Mystery?
(His Doctrine in Romans - Philemon)

Of course, Under God's Other Context Of Grace for The ( Heavenly ) ONE Body
Of Christ, Which began with ( ONE apostle ) Paul, Baptized By The ONE Spirit,
as the first 'member' of the ONE New man...
(Ephesians 2:15; 1 Timothy 1:16; Romans 11:13; Ephesians 4:5; 1 Corinthians 12:13),

...it is ( as Paul states 21 x ) "But Now":

1) Have repentance toward God (change mind about sin/agree With God "it is Wrong!")
(Acts 20:21)
+
2) Have faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21), and trust/believe The Gospel
Of The Grace Of God: His Death ( ALL-Sufficient Work On The Cross ), Burial, And
Resurrection, According To The Scripture (Ephesians 2:5-9; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4)
+
3) Acknowledge I am Spiritually Baptized By The ONE Baptism Of The Holy Spirit
Into The ONE (Spiritual Organism) Body Of Christ, Seated In the Heavenlies
(Ephesians 4:5; Colossians 2:12; Galatians 3:27; Romans 6:3-4; 1 Corinthians 12:13)
+
4) Acknowledge Christ Is Living in me, so I allow Him to, through me:
+
5) To Fulfil:

All Of His Law, In ONE Word: ►► love ◄◄ thy neighbor
as thyself!" (Galatians 5:14; Romans 13:8-10)
+
6) Study God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided to show myself "Approved Unto God"
(2 Timothy 2:15), and all the rest of these Bible study rules!
+
7) Work with my hands to "give to them in need," and the LORD "shall supply all my need"
(Ephesians 4:28; 1 Thessalonians 4:11-12; 2 Thessalonians 3:10-12; 1 Timothy 5:8)
+
8) Be a humble prayer warrior and:
"...look, watch, and Patiently WAIT For..." = The LORD Jesus Christ!
(2 Thessalonians 2:1; Romans 8:18-19; Romans 8:23; Romans 8:25; 1 Corinthians 1:7;
Ephesians 6:12-18; Philippians 3:20; Colossians 4:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 1:10;
1 Thessalonians 5:5-11; Titus 2:13)
+
9) Put on the FULL armour of God and stand, in the spiritual warfare I wrestle with
(Ephesians 6:10-18)
+
10)
Eph 6:19 "And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I
may open my mouth boldly, to make known the Mystery Of The Gospel,"
+
11)
Eph 3:9 "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of The Mystery, which from the
beginning of the world hath been hid in God, Who created all things by Jesus Christ"
+
12) Acknowledge that I am going to give an account at Judgment (1 Corinthians 3:8-15;
Romans 14:12), at my Heavenly Home-Going ( Great GRACE Departure! )

According to these and all the details of God's Sound Doctrinal Blueprint In
Romans Through Philemon? (1 Timothy 1:10; 2 Timothy 4:3; Titus 1:9):

Titus 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

Or:

C) Do I speak after following the Many, who homogenize A) + B) into
Massive Confusion?

Final question would be: Which Option, Under Grace Today, should I take
To Honor and Glorify God, Who Plainly and Clear Says in Romans 11:6:

"And if By Grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise​

Grace is no more Grace. But if it be of works, then is it​

no more Grace: otherwise work is no more work."​

Precious friend(s), thanks again. I appreciate all your prayerful and careful
consideration of this Eternally Important Matter.

Amen.

"Hi Wayne, and thanks in advance for listening - which ( A, B, or C ) should I choose?:"

Or we can just choose to obey and not worry about your false dichotomies.

 

[Nehemiah6]

And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.

Why are you quoting from James rather than from Genesis 15? James is interpreting what is already confirmed in Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. And this is exactly what Paul quotes in Romans 4:3: For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

This is justification by grace through faith and imputed righteousness IN THE SIGHT OF GOD. But James is focusing on works which FOLLOW saving faith: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Justified in the eyes of men, not in the sight of God. James is talking about works as evidence of saving faith, and that the two go hand in hand.

 

[mailmandan]

Hi Mailman,

All you said makes sense when you use an unscriptural definition of believe. Just so you know, when the KJV was being translated into English, they used the word faith. The English word Faith does not have a verb and so they used another English word : believe, believing, believes.

The definition you have faith is the same definition for hope. Hope is trust. Faith is not just trust, but also has works. Read James 2:14-16. The works that James speaks about does not violate what it says in Ephesians 2:8-9 for Romans 4:1-5 as the Bible lists two types of works: Works of righteousness (Titus 3:5) in which we earn our way to heaven, which is impossible. The other work that is mentioned is a "work of faith". (1 Thessalonians 1:3 and 2Thessalonians 1:11).

This all makes sense in reading: (Heb 11:1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. One can see both substance and evidence. Look what Jesus noticed:

(Mat 9:2) And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

Whenever the words: faith, or believe is used in the New Testament, they always include two things: trust and works. Read Colossians 2:11-13 below and you can see how baptism is a work of fait

(Col 2:11) and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

(Col 2:12) having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

(Col 2:13) When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

Thank you, Mailman, for listining!
Wayne

The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in/have faith in Christ unto salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief. Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I was also confused about this and basically defined faith "as" obedience/works just as all works-salvationists do.

Works of righteousness are works done in righteousness and are not distinct from works of fath. Your argument is flawed. Faith includes trust, yet works are the fruit of faith, but not the essence of faith. I have read James 2:14-26 numerous times and James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) they have faith, but they have no works (to evidence their claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

In regard to 1 Thessalonians 1:3, notice the words "work of" faith, "labor of" love and "patience of" hope in 1 Thessalonians 1:3. These are the practical outworking of the Thessalonians' conversion. The "work" the Thessalonians do is a result or consequence of their faith. So too their "labor" flows from love and their "endurance" comes from hope. Work "of" faith does not mean that faith in essence is the work accomplished or that they were saved based on those works accomplished. Their work is a result or consequence "of" their faith. The work done is "of" faith or done "out of" faith. Faith was already established at conversion and then the work followed as a result or consequence "of" their faith.

To say that works are the very essence of faith (as you seem to be implying) would be to say that faith "is" works. I was recently in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who continually said that belief + works = faith and he called works an essential element of faith and said that it's our cooperation with God’s grace producing works that saves us and he stressed that we are saved by faith and works. He also went on to make this statement below:

We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

As you can see above, according to his logic, faith "is" in essence this list of works above so to say that we are saved by faith would also include being saved by accomplishing that list of works above as well according to his logic. Your argument is similar and culminates in salvation by works. Roman Catholics even make the same argument that you are implying about being saved by "these" works and just not "those" works.

 

[Lamar]

Why are you quoting from James rather than from Genesis 15? James is interpreting what is already confirmed in Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. And this is exactly what Paul quotes in Romans 4:3: For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

This is justification by grace through faith and imputed righteousness IN THE SIGHT OF GOD. But James is focusing on works which FOLLOW saving faith: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Justified in the eyes of men, not in the sight of God. James is talking about works as evidence of saving faith, and that the two go hand in hand.

Below is your quote and not scripture:

Justified in the eyes of men, not in the sight of God. James is talking about works as evidence of saving faith, and that the two go hand in hand

Below is scripture:

Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!” “Here I am,” he replied. (Genesis 22:1)

“Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.” (Genesis 22:12)

What did God know? "Now I know that you fear God,"
When and how did God know it? "because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

Hence, your quote is wrong. It was in the sight of God that Abraham was justified

Justified Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com
noun Theology .Usually the justified . a person or persons believed to be worthy, redeemed, or absolved: Good works are logically and morally necessary, for they are nothing more or less than the evidence that one is indeed among the justified. verb the simple past tense and past participle of justify.

 

[mailmandan]

Why are you quoting from James rather than from Genesis 15? James is interpreting what is already confirmed in Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. And this is exactly what Paul quotes in Romans 4:3: For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

This is justification by grace through faith and imputed righteousness IN THE SIGHT OF GOD. But James is focusing on works which FOLLOW saving faith: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Justified in the eyes of men, not in the sight of God. James is talking about works as evidence of saving faith, and that the two go hand in hand.

James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

The Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[Lamar]

The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in/have faith in Christ unto salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief. Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I was also confused about this and basically defined faith "as" obedience/works just as all works-salvationists do.

Works of righteousness are works done in righteousness and are not distinct from works of fath. Your argument is flawed. Faith includes trust, yet works are the fruit of faith, but not the essence of faith. I have read James 2:14-26 numerous times and James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) they have faith, but they have no works (to evidence their claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

In regard to 1 Thessalonians 1:3, notice the words "work of" faith, "labor of" love and "patience of" hope in 1 Thessalonians 1:3. These are the practical outworking of the Thessalonians' conversion. The "work" the Thessalonians do is a result or consequence of their faith. So too their "labor" flows from love and their "endurance" comes from hope. Work "of" faith does not mean that faith in essence is the work accomplished or that they were saved based on those works accomplished. Their work is a result or consequence "of" their faith. The work done is "of" faith or done "out of" faith. Faith was already established at conversion and then the work followed as a result or consequence "of" their faith.

To say that works are the very essence of faith (as you seem to be implying) would be to say that faith "is" works.Works of righteousness are works done in righteousness and are not distinct from works of fath

Your response is overly wordy and your personal discussion with a Roman Catholic is not germane to the issue.

Can you give me examples of the works you mention below:
"Works of righteousness are works done in righteousness and are not distinct from works of fath"

 

[Lamar]

James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

The Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*
Agreed.
My question is when are we saved by faith?

 

[mailmandan]

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*
Agreed.
My question is when are we saved by faith?

The moment that we place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

 

[mailmandan]

Your response is overly wordy and your personal discussion with a Roman Catholic is not germane to the issue.

Overly wordy? My personal discussion with a Roman Catholic is an example of how works-salvationists try to "redefine" faith to "include" works and the end result is salvation by faith AND works in contradiction to scripture. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Can you give me examples of the works you mention below:
"Works of righteousness are works done in righteousness and are not distinct from works of fath"

Good works in general. (Ephesians 2:10)

 

[Lamar]

Overly wordy? My personal discussion with a Roman Catholic is an example of how works-salvationists try to "redefine" faith to "include" works and the end result is salvation by faith AND works in contradiction to scripture. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Good works in general. (Ephesians 2:10)

Overly wordy?
Quite so. Wayne Cobb is simply stating that God uses the vehicle of baptism as the point in time "of raising us up".
Nothing more.
Your long discourse does not negate this truth.

Your personal interactions with this Roman Catholic does not change what is written in scripture. Who you decide to label a "works-salvationist" is not germane to the issue.

There are no examples in the verse you supplied as examples of "works in righteousness" and that is germane to this discussion.

 

[Lamar]

The moment that we place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

The moment that we place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

Agreed.
And when is that moment?

 

[mailmandan]

Overly wordy?
Quite so. Wayne Cobb is simply stating that God uses the vehicle of baptism as the point in time "of raising us up".
Nothing more.
Your long discourse does not negate this truth.

Your personal interactions with this Roman Catholic does not change what is written in scripture. Who you decide to label a "works-salvationist" is not germane to the issue.

There are no examples in the verse you supplied as examples of "works in righteousness" and that is germane to this discussion.

Overly wordy is a cop out to not read everything I said. Water baptism is a picture of being raised up but is not the vehicle by which one actually becomes raised up. We were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

My personal interaction with that Roman Catholic validates my argument about works-salvationists and I did not change what is written in scripture. Works of righteousness/works done in righteousness are good works. Do you understand what works done in righteousness means? It does not mean works done in unrighteousness.

 

[mailmandan]

The moment that we place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

Agreed.
And when is that moment?

I just explained when that moment is. The moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Your faith is obviously "also" in water baptism for salvation which does not equate to faith in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation.

 

[Lamar]

Overly wordy is a cop out to not read everything I said. Water baptism is a picture of being raised up but is not the vehicle by which one actually becomes raised up. We were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

(Col 2:12) having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. .

"Overly wordy is a cop out to not read everything I said."

Wrong, the very reason I knew it was "overly wordy" was because I "read everything" you said.

"Water baptism is a picture of being raised up but is not the vehicle by which one actually becomes raised up. We were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead"

This is the text:

(Col 2:12) having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Baptism is not being described as a "picture", as a matter of fact it's not even being described at all.
Baptism in this verse is being used as a point in time of an event. That event is our being "raised up".
Baptism as a "picture" is not being presented in this verse. You are simply inserting your bias into the verse.

"My personal interaction with that Roman Catholic validates my argument about works-salvationists and I did not change what is written in scripture."

Who is "that Roman Catholic" you think "validates" your argument?
Did this Roman Catholic have any valid points for his or her side of your discussion?
Was this Roman Catholic equipped to present the teachings of the Roman Catholic faith?
Does this even matter?

I could do the same thing in reverse and tell you about my discussions with Hyper-Grace followers and their support of faith alone regeneration theology.

"Do you understand what works done in righteousness means?"

Since you have refused to give any examples of "works done in righteousness" I am left to assume it is you who does not know what it means.

"It does not mean works done in unrighteousness."

I did not ask you what it does not mean, I asked you for examples.

 

[mailmandan]

"Overly wordy is a cop out to not read everything I said."

Wrong, the very reason I knew it was "overly wordy" was because I "read everything" you said.

"Water baptism is a picture of being raised up but is not the vehicle by which one actually becomes raised up. We were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead"

This is the text:

(Col 2:12) having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Baptism is not being described as a "picture", as a matter of fact it's not even being described at all.
Baptism in this verse is being used as a point in time of an event. That event is our being "raised up".
Baptism as a "picture" is not being presented in this verse. You are simply inserting your bias into the verse.

"My personal interaction with that Roman Catholic validates my argument about works-salvationists and I did not change what is written in scripture."

Who is "that Roman Catholic" you think "validates" your argument?
Did this Roman Catholic have any valid points for his or her side of your discussion?
Was this Roman Catholic equipped to present the teachings of the Roman Catholic faith?
Does this even matter?

I could do the same thing in reverse and tell you about my discussions with Hyper-Grace followers and their support of faith alone regeneration theology.

"Do you understand what works done in righteousness means?"

Since you have refused to give any examples of "works done in righteousness" I am left to assume it is you who does not know what it means.

"It does not mean works done in unrighteousness."

I did not ask you what it does not mean, I asked you for examples.

You are inserting your bias about baptism here which does not align with salvation through belief/faith. (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43-47; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..). Being buried and raised up with Him is merely signified in the waters of baptism, yet is procured through faith in the working of God who raised Him from the dead.

In regard to works done in righteousness, I gave you an example of good works in general in Ephesians 2:10. Do you not know what good works are? Is clothing and feeding the poor a good work? Is that also not a work done in righteousness? Only those who are born of God perform genuine works of righteousness because they are righteous.

In 1 John 3:7-10, we read, Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin continually, because he has been born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother and sister. Another example.

Jesus told John the Baptist to baptize Him in order to fulfill all righteousness. (Matthew 3:13-15) Baptism is a work done in righteousness (unless you are an unbeliever). Now read Titus 3:5 in regard to works of righteousness.