question: Can an unsaved person be baptized in the Holy Spirit?

[DJT_47]

A myth? Why would you think that?

The miraculous manifestations of the Spirit were the result of the laying on of the apostle's hands, and they're dead. The gifts served a purpose in biblical times but no longer are required.

 

[Karlon]

Can unsaved person be baptized in the Holy Spirit?

no. what good will it do? if an unsaved person can be baptized in the Holy Spirit as well as a saved person, what's the sense in being saved? might as well live like the devil wants you to. it would make God's word of none effect. there's no fellowship of the righteous & unrighteous or a believer with an infidel.

 

[Seorsum]

Peter says baptism saved us. 1 Peter 3:21, so, you're not correct. Also, nowhere in the bible does it describe baptism nor its reason as you have. It is an outward expression of nothing, but rather a command that must be obeyed in order to secure our salvation. The Ethiopian eunuch was with Philip in the middle of nowhere when he was baptized and in the audience of no one other than Philip. Furthermore, Philip's preaching of the gospel to him obviously included the need for baptism, hence the eunuch's question to him regarding water and baptism. Baptism us not a work of anything or any law.

Well, except that salvation does not depend on any work. It is a gift.

Paul was sent to the Gentiles and he never held too much stock in water baptism. He considered it a division in the church.
Gal 2:7-9
"But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised (for He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles), and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised "

1 Corinthians 1:14-17
I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one would say you were baptized in my name. Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other.

For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.

Take that with verses that show no work, such as baptism, can help save you. You would already be saved, just like Abraham, years before offering Isaac.

Not taught anywhere in the Bible?

1. Rom. 3:28-30, “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.”
2. Rom. 4:5, “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,”
3. Rom. 5:1, “therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
4. Rom. 9:30, “What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith.“
5. Rom. 10:4, “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”
6. Rom. 11:6, “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”
7. Gal. 2:16, “nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.”
8. Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
9. Gal. 3:5-6, “Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6 Even so, Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.”
10. Gal. 3:24, “Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.”
11. Eph. 2:8-9, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9 Not by works, lest any man should boast.”
12. Phil. 3:9, “and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.”

You need to be careful what you tell Christians that they must do. It's the same as telling the early Christians that they needed to be circumcised.

Gal 5:2-6
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

 

[Seorsum]

The miraculous manifestations of the Spirit were the result of the laying on of the apostle's hands, and they're dead. The gifts served a purpose in biblical times but no longer are required.

So, when we accept Christ as our savior, we are not filled with the Holy Spirit to help guide us. We were left as orphans.

John 3:5: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”

Water is natural childbirth, so how are we born again of the Spirit?

 

[Seorsum]

The miraculous manifestations of the Spirit were the result of the laying on of the apostle's hands, and they're dead. The gifts served a purpose in biblical times but no longer are required.

One more thought. Miraculous manifestations were not the only purpose Jesus had the Holy Spirit come.

 

[Lamar]

Water is natural childbirth, so how are we born again of the Spirit?

Can you please explain this comment to me?

 

[Lamar]

So, when we accept Christ as our savior, we are not filled with the Holy Spirit to help guide us. We were left as orphans.

John 3:5: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”

Water is natural childbirth, so how are we born again of the Spirit?

"So, when we accept Christ as our savior, we are not filled with the Holy Spirit to help guide us. We were left as orphans."

If a believer is baptized so that his sins are forgiven and he has received the Gift of the Holy Spirit why would you label him an orphan?

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

One more thought. Miraculous manifestations were not the only purpose Jesus had the Holy Spirit come.

Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome To Chat.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II). ← PG Rated "Approved" *

Grace, Peace, And JOY!… + RICH Blessings ♫ 😇 ↑

* PG = Perfect God / Parental Guidance:

 

[Lamar]

Well, except that salvation does not depend on any work. It is a gift.

DJT_47 made no such statement.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

a Miracle, is something that goes directly against the Laws of Physics as the One True LAW manipulates Time, Space, Matter to do what logically is impossible. That is the truest way to explain the Manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

For people who choose not to believe in Gifts, they have no problem believing in another Manifestation of the Holy Spirit, Casting out Demons. This is where the SECOND LAW controls a life, and another life uses the FIRST LAW to Command the SECOND LAW to yield and leave.

People, who say the Holy Spirit no longer manifests, have to be some of the most dumbest folks on planet earth!

 

[Seorsum]

Can you please explain this comment to me?

First off, anything other than quoted words are my opinion.
Let me state that from day one.

There are two schools of thought on that, that I know of. The first is that both refer to the same baptism.
The second one, and the one I now lean toward is that Jesus was telling Nicodemus that a man must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God. I believe he was telling him that a man must not only be born the first time, of woman, but then again of the Spirit.

“born of water” refers to physical birth. Unborn babies float in fluid in the amniotic sac for nine months. When the time for birth arrives, the amniotic sac bursts, and the baby is born in a rush of “water,” entering the world as a new creature."

 

[Seorsum]

DJT_47 made no such statement.

They wrote that baptism was "a command that must be obeyed in order to secure our salvation"

I listed nine reasons I disagreed. Not opinions, quotes.

It's up to you how you want to gain salvation, but one of them does not work.

 

[Lamar]

I have explained this to you so many times I lost count Well I guess that makes it true.

Paul did not tell everyone to be baptized.. He only told a select group to be baptized. Please cite.

That group is the group who recieved remission of sin. Please cite.

if you are unwilling to look deeper. and are just going to take a translation at face value, thats on you. not me

Let me guess. You know that we can not accept Acts 2:38 at face value because.....it does not fit your theology? Was this knowledge given to you by means of the esoteric?

 

[DJT_47]

Well, except that salvation does not depend on any work. It is a gift.

Paul was sent to the Gentiles and he never held too much stock in water baptism. He considered it a division in the church.
Gal 2:7-9
"But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised (for He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles), and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised "

1 Corinthians 1:14-17
I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one would say you were baptized in my name. Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other.

For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.

Take that with verses that show no work, such as baptism, can help save you. You would already be saved, just like Abraham, years before offering Isaac.

Not taught anywhere in the Bible?

1. Rom. 3:28-30, “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.”
2. Rom. 4:5, “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,”
3. Rom. 5:1, “therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
4. Rom. 9:30, “What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith.“
5. Rom. 10:4, “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”
6. Rom. 11:6, “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”
7. Gal. 2:16, “nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.”
8. Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
9. Gal. 3:5-6, “Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6 Even so, Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.”
10. Gal. 3:24, “Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.”
11. Eph. 2:8-9, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9 Not by works, lest any man should boast.”
12. Phil. 3:9, “and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.”

You need to be careful what you tell Christians that they must do. It's the same as telling the early Christians that they needed to be circumcised.

Gal 5:2-6
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

I am careful. I tell them the truth and let the scriptures speak for themselves. You cited many things, erroneously however.

Baptism is not a work. It's a command that must be obeyed.

Mk 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The above is In JESUS OWN WORDS.

belief + baptism =salvation

Belief and baptism are inextricably tied together, one being dependent upon the other. Pretty clear.

And you're posting scripture as to say scripture doesn't agree with itself. Scripture does not contradict scripture. We (you in this case) must figure out how the scriptures coincide with and compliment each other.

And your quote of Paul in 1 Cor 1. Do you know why he said that? That he was sent to preach not baptize? He was the skilled preacher, the orator. You must read a bit further to 1 Cor 3:6

6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

Apollos was apparently the one baptizing.

You're the one that needs to be careful since you're teaching untruth.

 

[Seorsum]

Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome To Chat.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II). ← PG Rated "Approved" *

Grace, Peace, And JOY!… + RICH Blessings ♫ 😇 ↑

* PG = Perfect God / Parental Guidance:

View attachment 254113

I thank you for allowing me here.

 

[Seorsum]

I am careful. I tell them the truth and let the scriptures speak for themselves. You cited many things, erroneously however.

Baptism is not a work. It's a command that must be obeyed.

Mk 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The above is In JESUS OWN WORDS.

belief + baptism =salvation

Belief and baptism are inextricably tied together, one being dependent upon the other. Pretty clear.

And you're posting scripture as to say scripture doesn't agree with itself. Scripture does not contradict scripture. We (you in this case) must figure out how the scriptures coincide with and compliment each other.

And your quote of Paul in 1 Cor 1. Do you know why he said that? That he was sent to preach not baptize? He was the skilled preacher, the orator. You must read a bit further to 1 Cor 3:6

6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

Apollos was apparently the one baptizing.

You're the one that needs to be careful since you're teaching untruth.

Yep, that's what they said about circumcision. No where did I say scripture contradicts itself.
I submit that your interpretation is a contridiction.
"In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith "in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation."

I thank you and others for your discussion today. I am in no way an authority and only speak from my current understanding. I wish I could stay longer.
God's blessings to all.

 

[DJT_47]

Yep, that's what they said about circumcision. No where did I say scripture contradicts itself.
I submit that your interpretation is a contridiction.
"In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith "in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation.
In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation.

I thank you and others for your discussion today. I am in no way an authority and only speak from my current understanding. I wish I could stay longer.
God's blessings to all.

Go study some more while you're gone.

 

[Seorsum]

Go study some more while you're gone.

Yep, because that will make you right.
What an ego.

Now, I'm gone.

 

[Lamar]

First off, anything other than quoted words are my opinion.
Let me state that from day one.

There are two schools of thought on that, that I know of. The first is that both refer to the same baptism.
The second one, and the one I now lean toward is that Jesus was telling Nicodemus that a man must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God. I believe he was telling him that a man must not only be born the first time, of woman, but then again of the Spirit.

“born of water” refers to physical birth. Unborn babies float in fluid in the amniotic sac for nine months. When the time for birth arrives, the amniotic sac bursts, and the baby is born in a rush of “water,” entering the world as a new creature."

"I believe he was telling him that a man must not only be born the first time, of woman, but then again of the Spirit." You believe that Jesus had to explain to Nicodemus that a man first had to be physically born before he could be spiritually born??? Do you really believe this?

“born of water” refers to physical birth. Unborn babies float in fluid in the amniotic sac for nine months. When the time for birth arrives, the amniotic sac bursts, and the baby is born in a rush of “water,” entering the world as a new creature." You made this up.

There is no reference of physical human birth being referred to as "born of water" in the Bible. "Born of woman" yes but never "born of water" . The term "breaking water" is rather modern and has no usage in the Bible. Jesus is not referring to "amniotic fluid" (that is silly) but is referring to water (H2O) baptism.

Your "school of thought" is well past conjecture and is more akin to grasping at straws.

On a side note: If a person must be "born of water" where would that leave children who die in the womb or murdered at abortion centers. Just a thought.

 

[Lamar]

They wrote that baptism was "a command that must be obeyed in order to secure our salvation"

I listed nine reasons I disagreed. Not opinions, quotes.

It's up to you how you want to gain salvation, but one of them does not work.

This is what you wrote: "Well, except that salvation does not depend on any work."

I am asking you to simply supply the post# where DJT_47 wrote that salvation depends on a work. I am asking you this in order for me to trust your posts in the future. Surely this is not too much to ask?