Under Law or Under Grace

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romans113336

romans113336

Banned
#61
Sep 23, 2023
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#61
NightTwister said:
Romans 3 explains this very clearly. “None is righteous, no, not one;" ... "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" --- It's the same solution for everyone beginning with Adam.
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Sure, there are little snippets that disprove the "Torah Observant", but the "Torah observant" need to be taken to every verse they hang on to, and be disproven there, in front of everyone, so that everyone can see for themselves, because even after being disproven, the "Torah observant" will never admit to being wrong or to having been disproven. The people need to see the verses of Scripture, and how they dispel their arguments.
 
E

evyaniy

Guest
#65
#65
romans113336 said:
Sure, but the "Torah observant" need to be taken to every verse they hang on to and be disproven there in front of everyone so that everyone can see for themselves because even after being disproven the Torah observant will never admit he is wrong or has been disproven. The people need to see the verses of Scripture, and how they dispel their arguments.
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"Torah observant" first needs to be defined by the person espousing it. The term could mean many things to different people using it. Without knowing what it means it is pointless to challenge it since it could mean many things. So define it if you are going to keep using it please.
 
romans113336

romans113336

Banned
#66
Sep 23, 2023
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#66
evyaniy said:
"Torah observant" first needs to be defined by the person espousing it. The term could mean many things to different people using it. Without knowing what it means it is pointless to challenge it since it could mean many things. So define it if you are going to keep using it please.
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In the context of this thread, it obviously refers to those who believe Christians are "under Law".
 
NightTwister

NightTwister

Well-known member
#68
Jul 5, 2023
2,103
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Colorado, USA
#68
romans113336 said:
Sure, there are little snippets that disprove the "Torah Observant", but the "Torah observant" need to be taken to every verse they hang on to, and be disproven there, in front of everyone, so that everyone can see for themselves, because even after being disproven, the "Torah observant" will never admit to being wrong or to having been disproven. The people need to see the verses of Scripture, and how they dispel their arguments.
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People have been trying to prove their righteousness to God on their own since the beginning. Every one of them has failed.
 
romans113336

romans113336

Banned
#69
Sep 23, 2023
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#69
Truthnightmare said:
“What does “under the law” mean? It would seem we are to follow the law, but our salvation comes from Christ.
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Yes, God expects that by His Grace, which we are under, we will fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law, which we are not under.

"Under Law" means "under the jurisdiction of the Law"--in other words, you go look at the law and try to do everything it says. Paul says it is wrong to do that, because the Law was never meant to make people righteous, and because it relies on sinful flesh to perform (Ro 8:3; Gal 3:3), which, ipso facto, will never work, but Grace is "God Is Our Righteousness" (Jer 23:6), God working in us to will and do for His pleasure (Php 2:12,13),
 
E

evyaniy

Guest
#70
#70
romans113336 said:
In the context of this thread, it obviously refers to those who believe Christians are "under Law".
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There are countless threads on this forum concerning that subject and new ones often. Thanks for the Scriptures people contributed in this thread. Leaving the discussion now. Thank you
 
romans113336

romans113336

Banned
#71
Sep 23, 2023
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#71
Truthnightmare said:
“What does “under the law” mean? It would seem we are to follow the law, but our salvation comes from Christ.
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The Law is for the living Jew only--once the Jew dies the Law's demand is that the Jew is liberated from his obligation to serve by means of Torah... but, now that he is also resurrected with Christ, he needs a new method of serving God. So he is "under Grace" now as his means of serving God. God's Spirit of Grace writes God's laws on his heart (Jer 31:33), showing him how to love his neighbor (1 Th 4:9), thus fulfilling the entire Law (Ro 13:8-10; Gal 5:14)
 
romans113336

romans113336

Banned
#73
Sep 23, 2023
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#73
JacobMartinMertens said:
By Christians are "under Law" do you mean that they do not keep it or that they are supposed to keep it or that they do keep it?
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Christians are not "under Law" (Ro 6:14), we are "under Grace"--these are two methods of living for God.
 
Truthnightmare

Truthnightmare

Banned
#79
Aug 27, 2023
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#79
romans113336 said:
The Law is for the living Jew only--once the Jew dies the Law's demand is that the Jew is liberated from his obligation to serve by means of Torah... but, now that he is also resurrected with Christ, he needs a new method of serving God. So he is "under Grace" now as his means of serving God. God's Spirit of Grace writes God's laws on his heart (Jer 31:33), showing him how to love his neighbor (1 Th 4:9), thus fulfilling the entire Law (Ro 13:8-10; Gal 5:14)
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With it being so many subgroups of Jews that seems rather complicated.
 
Truthnightmare

Truthnightmare

Banned
#80
Aug 27, 2023
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#80
JacobMartinMertens said:
My view is that in Christ I am not under the Law. But I also do not believe that I am under the Law because I am not of Israel's covenant with God through Moses.
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Do you believe the strangers of the OT were under the law of Moses?
 
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