Works Complete Faith?
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The opposite is also true: honing in on, and reading "justified by faith" in a vacuum makes you guys deny everything else Scripture teaches on the subject. You aren't even curious. I guess it's just a grace from God to be curious when someone sees their current understanding doesn't agree with all of Scripture.
I'm not exactly sure of your point/question. Works do complete faith, that's what the bible tell us.
Yes, Paul and James are in total agreement. When we look at a judgement scene, like in Matt. 25, their eternal destiny is determined by what they did or did not do. Which is in agreement with many scriptures, not just James.
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:
The "finished work of Jesus" confuses me. I have never read in God's word where a single NT writer tells us about the "finished work", I only hear it from man.
Yes, Paul and James are in total agreement. When we look at a judgement scene, like in Matt. 25, their eternal destiny is determined by what they did or did not do. Which is in agreement with many scriptures, not just James.
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:
The "finished work of Jesus" confuses me. I have never read in God's word where a single NT writer tells us about the "finished work", I only hear it from man.
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"I can't defend my position, here, when everyone is looking, but, trust me, guys, he is wrong... here, just listen to this other guy saying things. It's there, I swear!"
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My .02
I'm sorry but the "finished work" of Jesus is a doctrine of man. I have never read in God's word any apostle or NT writer telling us about the "finished work" of Christ. If it's there, please point it out. It's not uncommon for man to take one verse out of context and build a false doctrine around it.
The bible says faith without works is dead. Period. Martin Luther said faith that saves will never be alone. Then faith alone doesn't save just as God's word tells us.
Having faith is not 0 or 100%. It can be strong, it can be weak and we can loose it.
holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, 20 among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever How can you be worse than an unbeliever, a believer who is not doing what he should.
When we look at the judgement scene in Matt. 25, their eternal fate rests on if they did or did not.
I'm sorry but the "finished work" of Jesus is a doctrine of man. I have never read in God's word any apostle or NT writer telling us about the "finished work" of Christ. If it's there, please point it out. It's not uncommon for man to take one verse out of context and build a false doctrine around it.
The bible says faith without works is dead. Period. Martin Luther said faith that saves will never be alone. Then faith alone doesn't save just as God's word tells us.
Having faith is not 0 or 100%. It can be strong, it can be weak and we can loose it.
holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, 20 among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever How can you be worse than an unbeliever, a believer who is not doing what he should.
When we look at the judgement scene in Matt. 25, their eternal fate rests on if they did or did not.
1. Lol I think they get that from Christ saying "it is finished"?
2. Yeah, I agree with all these things, but, not even being a devil's advocate, it is possible to overemphasize certain truths and underemphasize other truths--and neither is good.
The Torah had some laws that said "remember", others that said "Do"--they "remember" well, but they think it's mutually exclusive with the "Do".
2. Yeah, I agree with all these things, but, not even being a devil's advocate, it is possible to overemphasize certain truths and underemphasize other truths--and neither is good.
The Torah had some laws that said "remember", others that said "Do"--they "remember" well, but they think it's mutually exclusive with the "Do".
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At the same time I agree, I also want to add that we can't do the things God wants on our own. We get grace to do good by trusting in Christ's merit. It's supernatural.
Also, it's not that we don't have peace until the last judgment. Our faith is counted as righteousness NOW, and that is to lead to peace, and knowledge of God. God is not angry, but delights in us. We are to be Gods friends. It really matters: both slaves and sons "serve", but God doesn't want slaves serving with a spirit of fear, but sons serving with a spirit of hope.
Also, it's not that we don't have peace until the last judgment. Our faith is counted as righteousness NOW, and that is to lead to peace, and knowledge of God. God is not angry, but delights in us. We are to be Gods friends. It really matters: both slaves and sons "serve", but God doesn't want slaves serving with a spirit of fear, but sons serving with a spirit of hope.
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romans113336 said:
James 2
22You see that faith was working with his works, and [o]as a result of the works, faith was [p]perfected;
So this is what I am talking about -----your taking a piece of Scripture OUT OF CONTEXT AND WITH NO UNDERSTANDING OF IT __-you just assume that Deeds Complete Faith -----and you are so wrong ---
Now I don't expect you to understand this as you apparently have no Spiritual discernment ----but maybe others will benefit from the Scripture in Context -------
This is the Scripture -----in context -----James 2
I say -----
So we see here -------------If your claiming to be a TRUE CHRISTIAN --who has the Right Faith --- ---and you don't act ---then your a False christian -------and you cannot be Saved ------with this Faith -----you can do all the works you want but you are still a False christian ----hell bound -----your works mean nothing ----
James 2
Amplified Bible, Classic Edition.
14 What is the use (profit), my brethren, for anyone to profess to have faith if he has no [good] works [to show for it]? Can [such] faith save [his soul]?
I say ---------Notice ---
it says ---for anyone profess to have faith if he has no [good] works [to show for it]? Can [such] faith save [his soul]?-----
Works Show your Faith ----
No where here does it say Works complete Faith -------
if Works completed Faith then you could be saved by doing the works ----which completes your Faith ----which is wrong Doctrine ----it is backwards
verse
15 If a brother or sister is poorly clad and lacks food for each day,
16 And one of you says to him, Good-bye! Keep [yourself] warm and well fed, without giving him the necessities for the body, what good does that do?
17 So also faith, if it does not have works (deeds and actions of obedience to back it up), by itself is destitute of power (inoperative, dead).
I say -------The Right Faith will prompt the person to be obedient to God --------
So Works back up Faith --it says Nothing about Works Completing Faith
18 But someone will say [to you then], You [say you] have faith, and I have [good] works.
Now you show me your [alleged] faith apart from any [good] works [if you can], and I by [good] works [of obedience] will show you my faith.
I say ---------so we see there are 2 people here ---1 has faith the other has Good works --------Notice Good in brackets ------this says that this person is a true Christian ---and is in obedience to God so this person has the Right Faith -----and the obedience is SHOWING HIS FAITH -----
NOTHING ABOUT WORKS COMPLETING FAITH -
:-So by saying that works Complete Faith ---
Your Implying ----------that God's Word is imperfect in supplying His Right Faith in us to be saved and we must do works to complete our Faith --------which is Ridiculous -----No works are required to be saved -Faith is required as small as a mustard seed -----nothing about Works --------Our Faith is shown in this world by our GOOD WORKS ------
The Act of going church won't Perfect your Faith to be saved -----
There is not one Scripture that says Works COMPLETES Faith ------so far in this Scripture
19 You believe that God is one; you do well. So do the demons believe and shudder [in terror and horror such as [a]make a man’s hair stand on end and contract the surface of his skin]!
20 Are you willing to be shown [proof], you foolish (unproductive, spiritually deficient) fellow, that faith apart from [good] works is inactive and ineffective and worthless?
The next 2 verses here go together
21 Was not our forefather Abraham [shown to be] justified (made acceptable to God) by [his] works when he brought to the altar as an offering his [own] son Isaac?
22 You see that [his] faith was cooperating with his works, and [his] faith was completed and reached its supreme expression [when he implemented it] by [good] works.
I say ---So you see here --verses 21 and 22 go together ----Faith and Works were cooperating with together ----as the right faith requires a Positive response --------Abraham had already Faith in God and trusted God enough to be obedient to take his son Isaac and do as God said -----by Abraham's obedience He was Showing His Faith in God -------
Posting a couple of scriptures from other Bibles to show you the truth ------verse 22
Berean Standard Bible
22-You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
22 You see that Abraham's faith and what he did worked together. His faith was shown to be genuine by what he did.
23 And [so] the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed in (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on) God, and this was accounted to him as righteousness (as conformity to God’s will in thought and deed), and he was called God’s friend.
24 You see that a man is justified (pronounced righteous before God) through what he does and not alone through faith [through works of obedience as well as by what he believes].
I say
Posting from AmpBible verse 24 ------to show you that the act of obedience REVEALS Faith ------Nothing about completing it ------REVEALS it -----
Amplified Bible
You see that a man (believer) is justified by works and not by faith alone [that is, by acts of obedience a born-again believer reveals his faith].
I say --------if works perfect Faith as you say ---then it did nothing for this person -----as she had the wrong Faith and no works could save her ------
25 So also with Rahab the harlot—was she not shown to be justified (pronounced righteous before God) by [good] deeds when she took in the scouts (spies) and sent them away by a different route?
26 For as the human body apart from the spirit is lifeless, so faith apart from [its] works of obedience is also dead.
Better read Hebrews 11 ----all of it ----By Faith ----these people obeyed ------Faith
Faith in Action ------
7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.
By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.
9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country;
11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she[b] considered him faithful who had made the promise.
NOTHING HERE SAYING ___WORKS PERFECTED THEIR FAITH ------God faith is perfect -already ----works accompany God's Faith --------Works show our perfected Faith -----
James 2
22You see that faith was working with his works, and [o]as a result of the works, faith was [p]perfected;
So this is what I am talking about -----your taking a piece of Scripture OUT OF CONTEXT AND WITH NO UNDERSTANDING OF IT __-you just assume that Deeds Complete Faith -----and you are so wrong ---
Now I don't expect you to understand this as you apparently have no Spiritual discernment ----but maybe others will benefit from the Scripture in Context -------
This is the Scripture -----in context -----James 2
I say -----
So we see here -------------If your claiming to be a TRUE CHRISTIAN --who has the Right Faith --- ---and you don't act ---then your a False christian -------and you cannot be Saved ------with this Faith -----you can do all the works you want but you are still a False christian ----hell bound -----your works mean nothing ----
James 2
Amplified Bible, Classic Edition.
14 What is the use (profit), my brethren, for anyone to profess to have faith if he has no [good] works [to show for it]? Can [such] faith save [his soul]?
I say ---------Notice ---
it says ---for anyone profess to have faith if he has no [good] works [to show for it]? Can [such] faith save [his soul]?-----
Works Show your Faith ----
No where here does it say Works complete Faith -------
if Works completed Faith then you could be saved by doing the works ----which completes your Faith ----which is wrong Doctrine ----it is backwards
verse
15 If a brother or sister is poorly clad and lacks food for each day,
16 And one of you says to him, Good-bye! Keep [yourself] warm and well fed, without giving him the necessities for the body, what good does that do?
17 So also faith, if it does not have works (deeds and actions of obedience to back it up), by itself is destitute of power (inoperative, dead).
I say -------The Right Faith will prompt the person to be obedient to God --------
So Works back up Faith --it says Nothing about Works Completing Faith
18 But someone will say [to you then], You [say you] have faith, and I have [good] works.
Now you show me your [alleged] faith apart from any [good] works [if you can], and I by [good] works [of obedience] will show you my faith.
I say ---------so we see there are 2 people here ---1 has faith the other has Good works --------Notice Good in brackets ------this says that this person is a true Christian ---and is in obedience to God so this person has the Right Faith -----and the obedience is SHOWING HIS FAITH -----
NOTHING ABOUT WORKS COMPLETING FAITH -
:-So by saying that works Complete Faith ---
Your Implying ----------that God's Word is imperfect in supplying His Right Faith in us to be saved and we must do works to complete our Faith --------which is Ridiculous -----No works are required to be saved -Faith is required as small as a mustard seed -----nothing about Works --------Our Faith is shown in this world by our GOOD WORKS ------
The Act of going church won't Perfect your Faith to be saved -----
There is not one Scripture that says Works COMPLETES Faith ------so far in this Scripture
19 You believe that God is one; you do well. So do the demons believe and shudder [in terror and horror such as [a]make a man’s hair stand on end and contract the surface of his skin]!
20 Are you willing to be shown [proof], you foolish (unproductive, spiritually deficient) fellow, that faith apart from [good] works is inactive and ineffective and worthless?
The next 2 verses here go together
21 Was not our forefather Abraham [shown to be] justified (made acceptable to God) by [his] works when he brought to the altar as an offering his [own] son Isaac?
22 You see that [his] faith was cooperating with his works, and [his] faith was completed and reached its supreme expression [when he implemented it] by [good] works.
I say ---So you see here --verses 21 and 22 go together ----Faith and Works were cooperating with together ----as the right faith requires a Positive response --------Abraham had already Faith in God and trusted God enough to be obedient to take his son Isaac and do as God said -----by Abraham's obedience He was Showing His Faith in God -------
Posting a couple of scriptures from other Bibles to show you the truth ------verse 22
Berean Standard Bible
22-You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
22 You see that Abraham's faith and what he did worked together. His faith was shown to be genuine by what he did.
23 And [so] the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed in (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on) God, and this was accounted to him as righteousness (as conformity to God’s will in thought and deed), and he was called God’s friend.
24 You see that a man is justified (pronounced righteous before God) through what he does and not alone through faith [through works of obedience as well as by what he believes].
I say
Posting from AmpBible verse 24 ------to show you that the act of obedience REVEALS Faith ------Nothing about completing it ------REVEALS it -----
Amplified Bible
You see that a man (believer) is justified by works and not by faith alone [that is, by acts of obedience a born-again believer reveals his faith].
I say --------if works perfect Faith as you say ---then it did nothing for this person -----as she had the wrong Faith and no works could save her ------
25 So also with Rahab the harlot—was she not shown to be justified (pronounced righteous before God) by [good] deeds when she took in the scouts (spies) and sent them away by a different route?
26 For as the human body apart from the spirit is lifeless, so faith apart from [its] works of obedience is also dead.
Better read Hebrews 11 ----all of it ----By Faith ----these people obeyed ------Faith
Faith in Action ------
7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.
By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.
9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country;
11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she[b] considered him faithful who had made the promise.
NOTHING HERE SAYING ___WORKS PERFECTED THEIR FAITH ------God faith is perfect -already ----works accompany God's Faith --------Works show our perfected Faith -----
Oh... another one of those verses that is commonly wrenched from its context (and therefore mis-applied)...
... here is what I've put in old posts--a couple of the shorter ones, anyway, endeavoring to explain the context of 2 Corinthians 13:5 :
[quoting old posts]
[quoting various posts I've made on that]
2 Corinthians 10-13 (at least that entire section... and really the entire epistle) is in the context of Paul vindicating his apostleship.
In the passage you refer to [2Cor13:5], he is saying, "don't simply test me [and judge me as a non-apostle as compared to the high-talkin' impressive guys you're tempted to "follow" instead], test your own selves and see whether you are in THE FAITH... because if you are [and you know you are--note: he *knows* this is their internal response, and is using this as part of his argument/defense/reasoning to make the point, which is-->], then I, who imparted these truths to you, am indeed a genuine apostle... even though you are inclined to think otherwise [coz I'm somewhat of a weak unimpressive speaker, so to speak, and not much to look at--2Cor10:1,7a, esp.v.10, etc]."
The passage has nothing to do with some certain-level-standard of "good works" they were to discover, and test themselves against, in order to tell whether or not they were "still saved," or "on the verge of losing it," or "part-way gone, and 1/4 of the way-to-go, gone," or maybe "90%-still-ON-TARGET-but-with-A-LITTLE-MORE-EFFORT-can-get-probably-still-make-it!," etc. [NO!]
[and... another post]
They are questioning Paul's apostleship, and he is responding with the "proof of it"... THEM (the-saved/Christ-in-them... unless they are willing to say He's not in them--NOT!). He's saying, don't merely test me (my apostleship, or lack thereof--in their view), test THE PROOF of it! --->YOU, YOURSELVES! (are the proof!!)
THIS is the context / setting of the words in v.5 (commonly misapplied / misunderstood).
[end quoting old posts]
... here is what I've put in old posts--a couple of the shorter ones, anyway, endeavoring to explain the context of 2 Corinthians 13:5 :
[quoting old posts]
[quoting various posts I've made on that]
2 Corinthians 10-13 (at least that entire section... and really the entire epistle) is in the context of Paul vindicating his apostleship.
In the passage you refer to [2Cor13:5], he is saying, "don't simply test me [and judge me as a non-apostle as compared to the high-talkin' impressive guys you're tempted to "follow" instead], test your own selves and see whether you are in THE FAITH... because if you are [and you know you are--note: he *knows* this is their internal response, and is using this as part of his argument/defense/reasoning to make the point, which is-->], then I, who imparted these truths to you, am indeed a genuine apostle... even though you are inclined to think otherwise [coz I'm somewhat of a weak unimpressive speaker, so to speak, and not much to look at--2Cor10:1,7a, esp.v.10, etc]."
The passage has nothing to do with some certain-level-standard of "good works" they were to discover, and test themselves against, in order to tell whether or not they were "still saved," or "on the verge of losing it," or "part-way gone, and 1/4 of the way-to-go, gone," or maybe "90%-still-ON-TARGET-but-with-A-LITTLE-MORE-EFFORT-can-get-probably-still-make-it!," etc. [NO!]
[and... another post]
They are questioning Paul's apostleship, and he is responding with the "proof of it"... THEM (the-saved/Christ-in-them... unless they are willing to say He's not in them--NOT!). He's saying, don't merely test me (my apostleship, or lack thereof--in their view), test THE PROOF of it! --->YOU, YOURSELVES! (are the proof!!)
THIS is the context / setting of the words in v.5 (commonly misapplied / misunderstood).
[end quoting old posts]
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Ephesians 2:5 says,
"... by grace YE ARE HAVING BEEN SAVED [perfect participle]"
Are you one who says (things like) we aren't [yet] "saved" till the end (like, when we die...); applying "salvation" words in such a way??
I can't remember in this thread whether you've suggested such, or not (and I'm having trouble keeping up with the fast pace of this thread... I gotta eat and sleep SOMEtimes! lol)
"... by grace YE ARE HAVING BEEN SAVED [perfect participle]"
Are you one who says (things like) we aren't [yet] "saved" till the end (like, when we die...); applying "salvation" words in such a way??
I can't remember in this thread whether you've suggested such, or not (and I'm having trouble keeping up with the fast pace of this thread... I gotta eat and sleep SOMEtimes! lol)
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Another .02
May I suggest, it's my understanding that this misconception goes all the way back to Martin Luther. When ML saw what the RCC required to pay for sin, he saw the glaring error that those "works" were not found nor required in scripture. I'm not real familiar with what the RCC requires to pay for sins but I did find this about indulgences and indulgences was a big one for ML. 1498 Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory.
The works of the RCC were the works ML was talking about, not the works done in righteousness. I feel the mistake comes when we try and lump ALL works into works. We cannot love without works.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
We are NOT saved BY works but we are not saved without them (faith alone). Works merely complete faith.
Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
May I suggest, it's my understanding that this misconception goes all the way back to Martin Luther. When ML saw what the RCC required to pay for sin, he saw the glaring error that those "works" were not found nor required in scripture. I'm not real familiar with what the RCC requires to pay for sins but I did find this about indulgences and indulgences was a big one for ML. 1498 Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory.
The works of the RCC were the works ML was talking about, not the works done in righteousness. I feel the mistake comes when we try and lump ALL works into works. We cannot love without works.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
We are NOT saved BY works but we are not saved without them (faith alone). Works merely complete faith.
Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
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