Scripture Based Flat Earth Proposition

[Romans34]

Start by reading Genesis 1 in several different translations. BibleGateway.com can help you with this.

You appear to start with the belief that the Earth is flat, then attempt to prove your case with Scripture, instead of starting by attempting to understand fully what Scripture is saying and building your worldview from that.

You didn't answer my questions? You are telling me what you think I believe and what you think I base it on. I would like to know what YOU believe and what YOU base YOUR belief on. What do YOU believe the Scripture is saying? Again, what is your "interpretation" and 'reasoning' on Genesis 1? Can you tell us how far the water fell from the 'windows of heaven'?

 

[GaryA]

What you have is not a model based on the word of God, but rather based on your interpretation of the word of God.

Why do people say stupid crap like this??? As if to say:

"If it is me, it is based on the word of God - if it is you, then it is based on your interpretation of the word of God."

Whose "opinions" are not based on their interpretation of the word of God???

In other words, you have circular reasoning.

Just having an opinion does not automatically mean it is circular reasoning.

Circular reasoning has to circle back on/to itself. Care to show how his illustration has done this?

 

[Romans34]

The Firmament is actually the entirety of our three-dimensional Universe. The Firmament includes Earth's atmosphere.

Note that birds fly in the Firmament...

Genesis 1:20
"And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven."

Obviously, birds do not fly in outer space. Thus, there is another Heaven that is missing from Church Doctrines and missing from your thesis.

I think you missed it. Do my illustrations not show that the firmament includes BOTH the atmosphere (where the birds fly -- 1st heaven) AND that place where God placed the luminaries (2nd heaven)? Read Genesis 1:6-8, 14-18 very carefully.

Genesis 1:6-8, "And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."

Genesis 1:14-18, "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good."

 

[Researcher]

I think you missed it. Do my illustrations not show that the firmament includes BOTH the atmosphere (where the birds fly -- 1st heaven) AND that place where God placed the luminaries (2nd heaven)? Read Genesis 1:6-8, 14-18 very carefully.

Ah yes. Now I see. Thank you for the clarification. I agree with what your illustration shows in that post, however I should clarify how I interpret the 'Waters', beginning with this verse...

Psalms 148:4
"Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens."

The word 'Waters' has various meanings depending on the verse and context...

Strong's Hebrew: 4325. מָ֫יִם (mayim) -- waters, water (biblehub.com)

Here is an example of how that word is used in Genesis 1:2...

Genesis 1:2 (New American Bible)
"and the earth was without form or shape, with darkness over the abyss and a mighty wind sweeping over the waters"

In the translation above, Mayim is translated as 'Abyss', as in the 'Underworld'.

In the Bible, the abyss is an unfathomably deep or boundless place. The term comes from the Greek word abyssos, meaning bottomless, unfathomable, boundless.

Abyss (religion) - Wikipedia

Thus, the Waters are not physical oceans, or anything made of H20.

The point I am making is that in the two verses I quoted, the word 'Waters' should be understood to mean Dimensional Barriers.

If we were to simply believe Genesis 1:2 in its most literal sense, then 'without form' means two-dimensional. Void means a complete vacuum. In other words, the Third Dimension had not even been created yet. Thus, our Universe (Firmament) had not been created yet.

I believe a more accurate interpretation of Genesis 1:1 would be...

"In the beginning, God created Heaven and Hell."

If Earth is 'without form and void', then technically that is Hell, the Underworld, Sheol, etc. Even Jerimiah 4:23 seems to describe a 'Hellish' landscape in a state of 'Supernatural Chaos'.

This brings us to...

Genesis 1:6-8, "And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."

The above verses show God splitting the two-dimensional Abyss (boundless potential) and giving it physical depth (bound potential). In other words, the Waters under the Firmament is the dimensional boundary between 2D and 3D. The Waters above the Firmament is the dimensional boundary between 3D and 4D.

Something like this in your diagram...

​

Our Universe, the Firmament, exists in between the two Waters. Thus, with the creation of 3D Space, God can now place the rest of the components within it...

Genesis 1:14-18, "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good."

That is how I interpret it. Moreover, even the most advanced theories of Science are in agreement...

​

The WorldSheet was the 2D 'face of the Waters' that was then split apart and separated to create the World Volume 'Firmament' in between.

 

[Researcher]

What I wrote above is very much in line with this image...

​

The difference between how I interpret compared to most others, is that I assume that God smart, not dumb.

 

[Cameron143]

What I wrote above is very much in line with this image...

View attachment 257552
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The difference between how I interpret compared to most others, is that I assume that God smart, not dumb.

I'll translate your last statement for you...I'm smart and the rest of you are dumb.

 

[NightTwister]

NightTwister alluded to (based on your question) and ALMOST stated he believed I

I didn't "allude to" or "almost state" anything. Feel free to reply directly to me rather than make indirect accusations.

 

[ByTheGraceOfGod]

https://www.tiktok.com/@flatearth30/video/7261641218516372762

 

[Romans34]

What I wrote above is very much in line with this image...

View attachment 257552
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The difference between how I interpret compared to most others, is that I assume that God smart, not dumb.

I can appreciate your illustrations, but that still leaves the waters above the sun, moon, and stars.
So how far did the water fall to the earth?

 

[Romans34]

I didn't "allude to" or "almost state" anything. Feel free to reply directly to me rather than make indirect accusations.

I wasn't making any accusations; I was just trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Researcher]

I can appreciate your illustrations, but that still leaves the waters above the sun, moon, and stars.
So how far did the water fall to the earth?

Are you assuming that the rain fell from above the Sun Moon and Stars? I am not seeing that mentioned in the verses...

Genesis 7:11
"In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."

Which of the Three Heavens is the verse referring to? It does not say anywhere... or does it? What am I missing?

The verse could simply mean that the rain came from clouds as it normally does.

Or...

If we interpret 'Windows' as some sort of 'Dimensional Portal', then we could conclude that the rain came from another dimension. In other words, it manifested from God in a supernatural way.

I have wondered about this myself since the concept is similar to the 'Door' that was opened in Revelation...

Revelation 4:1
"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

John was transported through what seems to be some sort of Wormhole. Could the 'Windows of Heaven' be similar?

In this next verse, we see blessings pouring through the 'Windows of Heaven'...

Malachi 3:10
"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."

Is the blessing simply rain? Or is it something more? I do not know the answer.

 

[Romans34]

Are you assuming that the rain fell from above the Sun Moon and Stars? I am not seeing that mentioned in the verses...

Genesis 7:11
"In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."

Which of the Three Heavens is the verse referring to? It does not say anywhere... or does it? What am I missing?

The verse could simply mean that the rain came from clouds as it normally does.

Genesis 1:6-8 declares that God made a firmament (expanse) with water above and water below. He called it Heaven.
In Genesis 1:14-18, He placed "lights" in the firmament (expanse between water above and water below). He called these sun, moon, and stars.
When "all the fountains of the great deep" were "broken up" and "the windows of heaven were opened", water from above the firmament fell to the earth.
It is doubtful that there were any clouds because until the flood came, it had never rained, "for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth . . ." (Genesis 2:5). Regardless of how you 'number' the heavens, the luminaries (sum, moon, stars) are still IN the firmament, with the flood waters falling from above them.

 

[Dino246]

Scripture Based Flat Earth Proposition (Part Four : The Question)

Since God placed the luminaries withIN the firmament . . .

In the days of Noah when He opened the windows of heaven,
how far did the water fall to the earth?

A hundred miles? A thousand miles? Or was it 25 trillion miles???

Proxima Centauri is said to be the closest star at 4.2465 light years away. That’s 24.93 trillion miles.

So how far did the water fall to the earth?


**Note also that about 1000 years before the coming of Christ (over 1300 years after the flood)
king David declared that the waters were still there when he wrote,
“Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens”.

I believe you have overstated your case and gone beyond what Scripture teaches. Firstly, nowhere in Scripture is it clearly stated or implied that "windows of heaven" released any of the waters above the expanse. Secondly, David's statement makes clear they are still in place. Thirdly, Malachi 3:10 refers to "the windows of heaven" but not overtly to water (though one may reasonably infer that). Fourthly, Genesis 1:1 clearly states that God created the heavens (plural) so the expanse is not the only 'heaven' there is.

 

[Romans34]

Firstly, nowhere in Scripture is it clearly stated or implied that "windows of heaven" released any of the waters above the expanse.

Genesis 7:11-12, "In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights."

Genesis 8:2, "The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;"

Secondly, David's statement makes clear they are still in place.

I agree in that there's still plenty of water above the firmament!

Thirdly, Malachi 3:10 refers to "the windows of heaven" but not overtly to water (though one may reasonably infer that).

I would agree here as well. I think He is saying He would pour out a blessing just like He poured out the water that fell to earth during the flood. And it could be implied that there is still plenty of "blessing" up there to be poured out as well.

Fourthly, Genesis 1:1 clearly states that God created the heavens (plural) so the expanse is not the only 'heaven' there is.

As mentioned above, the expanse between the waters and the waters includes BOTH the 1st heaven (atmosphere) and the 2nd heaven (luminaries). That would put the 3rd heaven above the waters David refers to that are above the heavens.

 

[Dino246]

Genesis 7:11-12, "In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights."

Genesis 8:2, "The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;"

As I said before, there is nothing there about the windows of heaven releasing the waters (or any part thereof) above the expanse. You're making an assumption that simply is not supported by Scripture.

As mentioned above, the expanse between the waters and the waters includes BOTH the 1st heaven (atmosphere) and the 2nd heaven (luminaries). That would put the 3rd heaven above the waters David refers to that are above the heavens.

I agree, but that still leaves us with the wording of verse 1: "heavens" plural. Now we have plural heavens there and in verse 8, meaning either a minimum of four, or the "Let there be" of verse 6 is a manipulation of the already-existing "heavens" rather than a separate creation ex nihilo.

 

[Romans34]

As I said before, there is nothing there about the windows of heaven releasing the waters (or any part thereof) above the expanse. You're making an assumption that simply is not supported by Scripture.

Genesis 1:6-8
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Genesis 1:9-10
And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

There are only two "waters", one above the firmament, and one below. And the one below He further divided into Earth and Seas. The fountains of the great deep would be the seas, from below the firmament. So if the water that fell to earth from the 'windows of heaven' didn't come from above the firmament, then where did it come from?

I agree, but that still leaves us with the wording of verse 1: "heavens" plural. Now we have plural heavens there and in verse 8, meaning either a minimum of four, or the "Let there be" of verse 6 is a manipulation of the already-existing "heavens" rather than a separate creation ex nihilo.

I don't see this as a problem. Sometimes Hebrew writers would make a 'blanket' statement, then 'back up' and explain with detail what was originally stated. Hence, the Heaven of verse 8 is one of the 'heavens' of verse 1.

 

[Romans34]

Hence, the Heaven of verse 8 is one of the 'heavens' of verse 1.

I guess more accurately speaking, the Heaven in verse 8 represents two of the 'heavens' of verse 1. The Hebrew word for heaven in this verse (שָׁמָ֑יִם) is also plural, just as it is in verse 1. But still, no conflict or contradiction.

 

[Romans34]

Ah yes. Now I see. Thank you for the clarification. I agree with what your illustration shows in that post, however I should clarify how I interpret the 'Waters', beginning with this verse...

Psalms 148:4
"Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens."

The word 'Waters' has various meanings depending on the verse and context...

Strong's Hebrew: 4325. מָ֫יִם (mayim) -- waters, water (biblehub.com)

Here is an example of how that word is used in Genesis 1:2...

Genesis 1:2 (New American Bible)
"and the earth was without form or shape, with darkness over the abyss and a mighty wind sweeping over the waters"

In the translation above, Mayim is translated as 'Abyss', as in the 'Underworld'.

The words "heavens" and "waters" in Psalm 148:4 all have מַּ֗יִם (mayim) in them (heavens = 'uplifted waters'). This is true.
[הַֽ֭לְלוּהוּ שְׁמֵ֣י הַשָּׁמָ֑יִם וְ֝הַמַּ֗יִם אֲשֶׁ֤ר מֵעַ֬ל הַשָּׁמָֽיִם]
But this is NOT the word translated "deep" (or abyss in NAB). "darkness was upon the face fo the deep" (תְה֑וֹם), not 'waters'. "...the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." (הַמָּֽיִם)

I believe a more accurate interpretation of Genesis 1:1 would be...

"In the beginning, God created Heaven and Hell."

How are you getting Hell from the word for Earth?

 

[Researcher]

How are you getting Hell from the word for Earth?

It is an interpretation, not a translation. The concept of Earth in Genesis 1:1 is in line with this...


Job 10:21
"Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death"

Strong's Hebrew: 776. אָ֫רֶץ (erets) -- earth, land (biblehub.com)

Land of Darkness vs. Face of the Deep. Similar, if not the same, concepts.

Note that a shadow is two dimensional, which is what 'without form' means. A shadow is also dark.

 

[Researcher]

...1st heaven (atmosphere) and the 2nd heaven (luminaries).

The First Heaven (i.e., Highest Heaven) is outside of our Universe.

The Second Heaven is our Universe, which includes Earth's atmosphere. It is called the Firmament.

As I mentioned earlier, birds do not fly in outer space (obviously)...

Genesis 1:20
"And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven."

The Third Heaven is the Kingdom of God Within.

The KJV has the correct translation...

Genesis 1:1
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

The Highest Heaven was created on the First Day.

The Second Heaven (Firmament) was created on the Second Day.

The Third Heaven was created on the Third Day.