The Trinity

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PaulThomson

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PaulThomson said:
Can you cite from a Christian source from 2000 years ago that declares all Christians must believe that Jesus is God?
Isn't that like asking, "Can you cite from a Christian source from 2000 years ago that declares all Christians don't have to believe that Jesus is God?"
You made the claim. But I guess you can't back it up.
 

JaumeJ

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Can you cite from a Christian source from 2000 years ago that declares all Christians must believe that Jesus is God?
I believe Isaiah 9:6 is clear on this understanding.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
 

Nehemiah6

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Can you cite from a Christian source from 2000 years ago that declares all Christians must believe that Jesus is God?
And now that you have seen all the evidence (as posted by others), have you repented and believed that Jesus is God?
 

PaulThomson

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As the following quotes show, the early Church Fathers (2nd to 5th Centuries in this case) recognized that Jesus Christ is God and were adamant in maintaining this precious truth.
Ignatius of Antioch
“Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).
For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).
“[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is” (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).
Aristides
“[Christians] are they who, above every people of the earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the Creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit” (Apology 16 [A.D. 140]).
Tatian the Syrian
“We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man” (Address to the Greeks 21 [A.D. 170]).
~Deuteronomy (David)
The question was -

PaulThomson said:
Can you cite from a Christian source from 2000 years ago that declares all Christians must believe that Jesus is God?
 

PaulThomson

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And now that you have seen all the evidence (as posted by others), have you repented and believed that Jesus is God?
I already believe Jesus is God. But I haven't seen any proof that to believe so was mandatory before Nicea.
 

Deuteronomy

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The question was -

PaulThomson said:
Can you cite from a Christian source from 2000 years ago
that declares all Christians must believe that Jesus is God?
It's implied in the following from A.D. 189.
“Nevertheless, what cannot be said of anyone else who ever lived, that he is himself in his own right God and Lord . . . may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth” (ibid., 3:19:1).​
And here, both 1. directly and 2. indirectly.
Cyprian of Carthage
One who denies that Christ is God cannot become his temple [of the Holy Spirit]” (Letters 73:12 [A.D. 253]).
Gregory the Wonderworker
“There is one God, the Father of the living Word, who is his subsistent wisdom and power and eternal image: perfect begetter of the perfect begotten, Father of the only-begotten Son. There is one Lord, only of the only, God of God, image and likeness of deity, efficient Word, wisdom comprehensive of the constitution of all things, and power formative of the whole creation, true Son of true Father, invisible of invisible, and incorruptible of incorruptible, and immortal of immortal and eternal of eternal. . . . And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever” (Declaration of Faith [A.D. 265]).
And here, indirectly as well.
“We, on the other hand, are [truly] religious, who make our supplications to the one true God. Someone may perhaps ask how, when we say that we worship one God only, we nevertheless assert that there are two, God the Father and God the Son—which assertion has driven many into the greatest error . . . [thinking] that we confess that there is another God, and that he is mortal. . . . [But w]hen we speak of God the Father and God the Son, we do not speak of them as different, nor do we separate each, because the Father cannot exist without the Son, nor can the Son be separated from the Father” (ibid., 4:28–29).​
Finally, there is this.
Those who say, ‘There was a time when he [the Son] did not exist,’ and ‘Before he was born, he did not exist,’ and ‘Because he was made from non-existing matter, he is either of another substance or essence,’ and those who call ‘God the Son of God changeable and mutable,’ these the Catholic Church anathematizes” (Appendix to the Creed of Nicaea [A.D. 325]).
Heresies that begin to take hold in the church are often the impetus behind the formation of church councils and the subsequent creation, then, of Creeds (that state what we believe AND what we must not believe). This is the reason that it wasn't until A.D. 325 that such of clear statement was finally issued by the church on this topic (a statement that takes us from simply "what we believe" about the Deity of Christ to "what we MUST believe", to be considered Christians).

Prior to that (as all of the early quotes above show us), the truth that Jesus Christ is both, God and man, was something that was generally held throughout the early church as truth (though obviously not be ALL in the church, or Arius would have never caused the controversy that he did).

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy (David)
 

Deuteronomy

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Whoops, sorry about the typos in post #408. I failed to catch them before my 5-minute editing allotment had ended :(

I'm sure that the "spellcheck" was to blame for all of them ;)
 

PaulThomson

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As the following quotes show, the early Church Fathers (2nd to 5th Centuries in this case) recognized that Jesus Christ is God and were adamant in maintaining this precious truth.
Ignatius of Antioch
“Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).
For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).
“[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is” (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).
Aristides
“[Christians] are they who, above every people of the earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the Creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit” (Apology 16 [A.D. 140]).
Tatian the Syrian
“We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man” (Address to the Greeks 21 [A.D. 170])........
Novatian
“If Christ was only man, why did he lay down for us such a rule of believing as that in which he said, ‘And this is life eternal, that they should know you, the only and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent?’ [John 17:3]. Had he not wished that he also should be understood to be God, why did he add, ‘And Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent,’ except because he wished to be received as God also? Because if he had not wished to be understood to be God, he would have added, ‘And the man Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent;’ but, in fact, he neither added this, nor did Christ deliver himself to us as man only, but associated himself with God, as he wished to be understood by this conjunction to be God also, as he is.” (Treatise on the Trinity 16 [A.D. 235]).
Cyprian of Carthage
“One who denies that Christ is God cannot become his temple [of the Holy Spirit]” (Letters 73:12 [A.D. 253]).
Gregory the Wonderworker
“There is one God, the Father of the living Word, who is his subsistent wisdom and power and eternal image: perfect begetter of the perfect begotten, Father of the only-begotten Son. There is one Lord, only of the only, God of God, image and likeness of deity, efficient Word, wisdom comprehensive of the constitution of all things, and power formative of the whole creation, true Son of true Father, invisible of invisible, and incorruptible of incorruptible, and immortal of immortal and eternal of eternal. . . . And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever” (Declaration of Faith [A.D. 265]).
Arnobius
“‘Well, then,’ some raging, angry, and excited man will say, ‘is that Christ your God?’ ‘God indeed,’ we shall answer, ‘and God of the hidden powers’” (Against the Pagans 1:42 [A.D. 305]).
Lactantius
“He was made both Son of God in the spirit and Son of man in the flesh, that is, both God and man” (Divine Institutes 4:13:5 [A.D. 307]).
“We, on the other hand, are [truly] religious, who make our supplications to the one true God. Someone may perhaps ask how, when we say that we worship one God only, we nevertheless assert that there are two, God the Father and God the Son—which assertion has driven many into the greatest error . . . [thinking] that we confess that there is another God, and that he is mortal. . . . [But w]hen we speak of God the Father and God the Son, we do not speak of them as different, nor do we separate each, because the Father cannot exist without the Son, nor can the Son be separated from the Father” (ibid., 4:28–29).
Council of Nicaea I
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through him all things were made” (Creed of Nicaea [A.D. 325]).
“But those who say, ‘There was a time when he [the Son] did not exist,’ and ‘Before he was born, he did not exist,’ and ‘Because he was made from non-existing matter, he is either of another substance or essence,’ and those who call ‘God the Son of God changeable and mutable,’ these the Catholic Church anathematizes” (Appendix to the Creed of Nicaea [A.D. 325]).
Patrick of Ireland
Jesus Christ is the Lord and God in whom we believe, and whose coming we expect will soon take place, the judge of the living and the dead, who will render to everyone according to his works” (Confession of St. Patrick 4 [A.D. 452]).
~Deuteronomy (David)
It seems clear from your citations that the first and second century Christians tolerated a range of Christologies within the church, and some or many believed as we do that Jesus is God. However your citations lack any insistence that a person must believe in the deity of Jesus Christ to be saved, until we get to Cyprian of Carthage in AD 253.

Cyprian of Carthage
“One who denies that Christ is God cannot become his temple [of the Holy Spirit]” (Letters 73:12 [A.D. 253]).
We know how politics work in both the world and the church, and how factions find it grating when others disagree with them, and how power plays occur to force conformity to one's factions views. I do not disagree that Jesus is God. What I an contesting is that the church of the first two and an half centuries got by quite well without dogmatising the deity of Christ and anathemising those who could not yet digest that meaty doctrine. I find the practise of inculcating the dogma of Christ's deity into new converts before they can be baptised and accepted as children of God something completely absent from the Bible and from the book of Acts in particular. It seem to me to be adding a legal requirement to salvation by faith in Christ and His death for our sins and his resurrection for our justification, an extra work akin to the Judaisers' requiring circumcision of gentile converts.​
I am still opposed to adding that confession of Christ's nature as a requirement for acceptance by Christ into His church. I am still persuaded that "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God" and "Christ/Messiah is God's promised atonement sacrifice for sins and the promised King" should be a sufficient confession to be recognised as a Christian. I believe one can grow into a fuller knowledge of Jesus Christ from there, through the study and practise of faith and scripture.​
 

CS1

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Can you cite from a Christian source from 2000 years ago that declares all Christians must believe that Jesus is God?
John's Gospel id very clear in this John chapter one and Genesis chapter 1.
 

Deuteronomy

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It seems clear from your citations that the first and second century Christians tolerated a range of Christologies within the church, and some or many believed as we do that Jesus is God. However your citations lack any insistence that a person must believe in the deity of Jesus Christ ~to be saved~......
Hello again Paul, this last statement of yours seems to move the goalposts a bit. I believe the post of yours that I was originally replying to said this,
Can you cite from a Christian source from 2000 years ago that declares all ~Christians~ must believe that Jesus is God?
It's one thing to say that "Christians" need to have or come to have an understanding of and belief in the Deity of Christ and/or the Trinitarian nature of the Godhead, but that is hardly the same as insisting that the unbelievers must do as well if they want to be saved :oops:

The Christian faith can be quite complex (as you know), but the Gospel/the Good News is not (which is part of the beauty of it, IMHO). And I see that you agree (as I read further down in your post).

So, just to be clear, and before I comment further, who are we talking about here, the justified/saved, who already know God, who are indwelt by Holy Spirit and have the mind of Christ (who have already begun growing in their knowledge and understanding of God, His word, the faith, etc.), or are we talking about the unsaved :unsure: (as these are two VERY different groups of people .. 1 Corinthians 2:12-13, 15-16 ~vs~ 1 Corinthians 2:14)

Thanks :)

~Deuteronomy (David)
p.s. - I finally came to saving faith a little over 37 years ago, and I was involved with groups like the Navigators and Campus Crusade for Christ (now "Cru") not long afterwards. I don't know of any missionary groups, back then or now, that insist or teach that full acceptance of the Deity of Christ is required BEFORE a person can be saved.


I believe that Gospel tracts, like Cru's Four Spiritual Laws, are pretty solid proof of this.
 

PaulThomson

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John's Gospel id very clear in this John chapter one and Genesis chapter 1.
Could you please quote the parts of Gen. 1 and John 1 that say one must believe Jesus is God to become saved?
 

PaulThomson

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A: "...a person must believe in the deity of Jesus Christ ~to be saved"

Hello again Paul, this last statement of yours seems to move the goalposts a bit. I believe the post of yours that I was originally replying to said this,
B: "... all ~Christians~ must believe that Jesus is God?"

Hi, Deuteronomy. What do you see as the essential difference in meaning between A and B ?
 

PaulThomson

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It's one thing to say that "Christians" need to have or come to have an understanding of and belief in the Deity of Christ and/or the Trinitarian nature of the Godhead, but that is hardly the same as insisting that the unbelievers must do as well if they want to be saved :oops:

The Christian faith can be quite complex (as you know), but the Gospel/the Good News is not (which is part of the beauty of it, IMHO). And I see that you agree (as I read further down in your post).

So, just to be clear, and before I comment further, who are we talking about here, the justified/saved, who already know God, who are indwelt by Holy Spirit and have the mind of Christ (who have already begun growing in their knowledge and understanding of God, His word, the faith, etc.), or are we talking about the unsaved :unsure: (as these are two VERY different groups of people .. 1 Corinthians 2:12-13, 15-16 ~vs~ 1 Corinthians 2:14)

I was responding to the claims below -

"
DEITY OF CHRIST:

1.) The doctrine that Jesus is God, the doctrine called "The Deity of Christ", has been orthodox Christian doctrine for 2,000 years.

2.) Any doctrine contrary to this, claiming Christ is NOT God, has been considered heresy for 2,000 years.

3.) This an ESSENTIAL doctrine, and is non-negotiable:
a.) without this doctrine we are literally believing in the "wrong Jesus"... not the Jesus of the Bible.
b.) if Jesus was not God, then he had no power to forgive our sins.


4.) There are many many passages where people call Jesus God, and where Jesus calls himself God... and this is stated in many different ways, and in many different terms... just so it's impossible to miss.

5.) If we study 2nd Temple Judaism, and Judaic culture and teaching of this time period (when Jesus lived) we will find many Jewish idioms and expressions used in scripture, which if understood, will prove, beyond a doubt, that Jesus was declaring himself to be God, and that ALL THE JEWS KNEW exactly what he was declaring of himself.
(That is literally why the Jews wanted to kill him, they clearly stated Jesus was declaring himself to be God.)

6.) There is no way to make an honest study of the New Testament, and look at all the pertinent scriptures, and at the teachings and culture of 2nd Temple Judaism, and come away with any other conclusion than Jesus declared he was God, and the New Testament declared he was God.

7.) Any other view of Christ has been considered heresy for 2,000 years... and it is still considered heresy today.
It is the worst of all doctrinal errors.... it should be taken very very seriously.

8. Without this doctrine... one is not a Christian.
 

JaumeJ

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There seems to be a stuck record here. I have not heard
Could you please quote the parts of Gen. 1 and John 1 that say one must believe Jesus is God to become saved?
one of these in over 60 years.
 

CS1

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Could you please quote the parts of Gen. 1 and John 1 that say one must believe Jesus is God to become saved?
First off, I would like to say said that, but I will show you that IF one doesn't Believe the Context of Gen 1 and John chapter.
They can't be saved.

The context of John Chapter One is revealed in Chapter Three. Once one comes to understand who Jesus is in Chapter One of John's gospel.

So in Gen chapter :

"In the beginning God".....


John chapter 1

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Verse 14: "And the Word became flesh."...





John chapter 3

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Right here in context, Jesus is speaking as Said. "he who does not believe is condemned already, "


Saved People are not condemned because they Believe Jesus is God. Those who do not believe that Jesus is God are not saved. That is why they are condemned. Because they did not Believe. The Lord Jesus said that.

There you have your Biblical answer Contextually.