What would we believe in regarding the Gospel of Christ if Paul's writings were not part of the Bible?

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ThyKingdomComeSoon

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Apr 1, 2023
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#21
It seems no one ever notices the constant conflicts that arise when people construe Pall's letters and content as conflicting with t the teachings given us by Jesus Yeshua through His disciples.

All I can say to help in this area is, when Paul speaks on a subject, and it sounds off, go to what Jesus Yeshua has taught us even to the Writings and Prophets of the Old Testament, . This always brings peace and satisfaction.
Yes, this difference in Paul's and Jesus Teachings is obvious. Very briefly, Paul own gospel (Rom 2:16) focuses on the death of Christ and salvation through grace alone. The Gospel of Jesus is a joyful one, He announces the coming Kingdom of Heaven, and Repentance , meaning to stop sinning as defined by the commandments, He paid the price of sin for us all who believe in him. these differences make it difficult to reconcile the two different gospel messages. But I do as you say, in case of doubt, my primary and impeccable source of information are the words of Jesus and the O.T. who confirms all of what Jesus did. This is an important concept I wish people would understand Paul having never met Jesus cannot be as good a source of information on Jesus as the original 12 apostles who lived and followed him for many years.

Blessings.
 

ThyKingdomComeSoon

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Apr 1, 2023
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#22
Paul wrote his epistles AFTER the resurrection of Christ, and showed that the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ are central to the Gospel. But Christ focused on faith in Himself, which is also what Paul taught: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:31).

And Christ never once said that salvation was based upon obedience to God's commandments. What He said to the rich young ruler is not about salvation through commandments at all but about his violation of the first three commandments. Neither did God ever say such a thing, since no man can keep His commandments perfectly.
Yes Paul wrote his epistles after the resurrection of Christ meaning he never met him personally in the flesh. To believe in Jesus is one thing doing as he taught us is another.
About obedience you are right, blind obedience like the hypocritical pharisee did leads to death. Jesus taught us the proper way to follow the commandments, it is true we cannot keep them perfectly at this time but one day we will.

Blessings.
 

ThyKingdomComeSoon

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Apr 1, 2023
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#23
The mosaic law would still remain intact as a wall that keeps the unholy sinners out of God's throneroom. Jesus would still have come to fulfil/complete that wall/law by keeping it's letter and spirit perfectly and installing himself as a door through which humans may enter as saints through faith in Him.
The mosaic law would still have been upgraded by Jesus to the higher standards of His sermon on the mount and His command to love all, even our enemies.
Gentiles would still have access to God by grace through faith.
The Holy Spirit would still have been poured out on all flesh, including every race, and the good news of Jesus' death for the sins of the world would still be preached to every creature.
We would have a lot less guidance on how all this is to be practically worked out with our private and corporate lives. There would probably be even more denominations and sects as we would have fewer certified apostolic landmarks by which to collectively navigate the material contained in the three gospels that exclude Luke, who attested to Paul's ministry, and Peter, James, John and Jude alone.

That's just for starters.
You did not realize but you put a lot of Paul's words in there...
 

ThyKingdomComeSoon

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Apr 1, 2023
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#24
Could anyone be saved today without Paul revelation? Could anyone be saved by reading Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John?

you wrote;

Q:Could anyone be saved today without Paul revelation? Could anyone be saved by reading Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John?[
A: absolutely, It is Jesus who saved us all. What he did for us all was explained in the first 4 books of the N.T., Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and confirmed by the O.T.. and a multitude of witnesses.
I have no doubt about this.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
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#25
you wrote;

Q:Could anyone be saved today without Paul revelation? Could anyone be saved by reading Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John?[
A: absolutely, It is Jesus who saved us all. What he did for us all was explained in the first 4 books of the N.T., Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and confirmed by the O.T.. and a multitude of witnesses.
I have no doubt about this.
Could one read the OT and be saved?
 

ThyKingdomComeSoon

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Apr 1, 2023
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#26
Could one read the OT and be saved?
A good question, salvation comes from GOD through Christ, but the promise of salvation is in the O.T., so if someone believes in the word of GOD and does the father's will, then yes.

Blessings.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#27
Paul is not prophesied in the Word as a Prophet to come. The main witness to Paul having been chosen by God Is Paul. If any know of anything more substantial in the Word previous to Paul concerning Paul to be one given words to believers after the last old testament propht, John the Baptizer, please share. God bles all.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#28
Paul is not prophesied in the Word as a Prophet to come. The main witness to Paul having been chosen by God Is Paul. If any know of anything more substantial in the Word previous to Paul concerning Paul to be one given words to believers after the last old testament propht, John the Baptizer, please share. God bles all.
Peter calls his writings scripture.
 

Kroogz

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Dec 5, 2023
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#29
The main witness to Paul having been chosen by God Is Paul.
2 Pet 3:15,16~~And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

If we exclude Paul as some 'minor' player, and believe he is not inspired(by The Lord Jesus Christ).....looks like we might be headed for some trouble.
 

ThyKingdomComeSoon

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Apr 1, 2023
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#31
2 Pet 3:15,16~~And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

If we exclude Paul as some 'minor' player, and believe he is not inspired(by The Lord Jesus Christ).....looks like we might be headed for some trouble.
just a note, I did not verify this and it is pure speculation to me at this point but scholars say 2 peter was modified, or even not from Peter . I will try to check on this, the problem is in finding the original texts apparently. I wish I had access to a good religious studies library at this time but I do not.

Blessings
 

selahsays

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May 31, 2023
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#34
Paul is not prophesied in the Word as a Prophet to come. The main witness to Paul having been chosen by God Is Paul. If any know of anything more substantial in the Word previous to Paul concerning Paul to be one given words to believers after the last old testament propht, John the Baptizer, please share. God bles all.
God bless you, too. Please consider:

Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Here I am, Lord." So the Lord said to him, "Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. "And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight." Then Ananias answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. "And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name." But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. "For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name's sake."

- Acts 9:10-16
 

ThyKingdomComeSoon

Well-known member
Apr 1, 2023
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#35
2 Pet 3:15,16~~And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

If we exclude Paul as some 'minor' player, and believe he is not inspired(by The Lord Jesus Christ).....looks like we might be headed for some trouble.
Is 2 Peter Peter’s? link; https://bible.org/article/2-peter-peter’s
 

ThyKingdomComeSoon

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Apr 1, 2023
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#37
What do you suppose the epistles of Paul are for? Who is his audience? What is the substance of his message?
What are you trying to make me say? like you mentioned before in another thread you know well how to get any info on scripture.

In case, here is a pulpit commentary for the book of 2 peter, there is plenty of info or commentary on bible hub you can search from there;
2 Peter
Introduction.
1. GENUINENESS OF THE EPISTLE.
1. External Evidence.
IN considering the genuineness of this Epistle we are confronted at once with the well-known words of Eusebius. He says, in his ’Ecclesiastical History,’ which seems to have been finished in A.D. 325, "One Epistle of Peter, which is called the first, is accepted; and this the presbyters of old have used in their writings as undoubted. But that which is circulated as his Second Epistle we have received to be not canonical. Nevertheless, as it appeared to many to be useful, it has been diligently read with the other Scriptures" (Eusebius, ’Hist. Eccl.,’ 3:3). In the same chapter he says that he knows only one genuine Epistle among the writings attributed to St. Peter; and in book 3:25 he classes the Second Epistle with those of James and Jude, as "disputed, indeed, but known to most men."
There are no direct quotations from this Epistle in the Christian writings of the first two centuries; there are, however, some scattered allusions which seem to imply acquaintance with it. Thus Clement of Rome, in his ’Epistle to the Corinthians,’ written about A.D. 100, says (chapter 23.), "Let that Scripture be far from us where it says, Wretched are the double-minded,... who say, These things we heard even in the time of our fathers, and, behold, we have grown old, and none of these things has happened to us." The same passage is quoted with slight differences in the so-called second epistle of Clement, where it is introduced with the words, "For also the prophetic word (ὁ προφητικοÌς λοìγος) says." Clement seems to have had in his mind recollections of chapter 3:4 and James 1:8. The words of the second epistle (written, perhaps, about the middle of the second century) remind us also of 2 Peter 1:19 (τοÌν προφητικοÌν λοìγον). The remainder of the passage, as quoted in 1 Clement 23, and 2 Clement 11, is quite different from St. Peter. It is therefore possible that Clement may be quoting some apocryphal writing; but it is at least probable that he is mixing together reminiscences of James 1:8 and chapter 3:4, with additions derived from some unknown source. The early Fathers were accustomed to give the sense, not the exact words, of their citations, often, it seems, quoting from memory; but even if we suppose that the passage was borrowed immediately from some unknown writer, it remains probable that that writer, older than Clement or contemporary with him, was acquainted with this Epistle. The μεγαλοπρεπηÌς δοìξα of 1 Clement 9. looks like a recollection of the same remarkable words in 2 Peter 1:17. It is also probable that in 1 Clement 7 and 9 there is a reference to 2 Peter 2:5, and in 1 Clement 11 to 2 Peter 2:6-9. In the ’Shepherd of Hermas’ there are three or four apparent allusions to this Epistle. Thus the words, τη῀ς τρυφη῀ς καιÌ τη῀ς ἀπαìτης ὁ χροìνος ὡìρα ἐστιÌ μιìα (’Sim.,’ 6:4) remind us of chapter 2:13. So in ’Vis.,’ 3:7, I the words, "Who... have forsaken the true way," may be an echo of chapter 2:15, and "Ye who have escaped the world" (’Vis.,’ 4:3.2), of chapter 2:20. Justin Martyr says, in controversy with the Jew Trypho, "As there were false prophets in the time of your holy prophets, so now there are many false teachers among us," in which words there seems to be a reminiscence of chapter 2:1. In the same book he says, "The day of the Lord is as a thousand years," which may be suggested by Psalm 90:4, but more nearly resembles chapter 3:8 — a passage to which possible allusions occur in the epistle ascribed to Barnabas, in Irenaeus, and Hippolytus.
In the Apology addressed to Antoninus by Melito of Sardis, about A.D. 170, there is a passage which closely resembles 2 Peter 3:5-7. Irenaeus also speaks of the conflagration of the universe as a "diluvium ignis;" and it may be noted, as at least a remarkable coincidence, that in speaking of the death of St. Peter he has the same word, ἐìξοδος, which is used in chapter 1:15. In the writings of Theophilus of Antioch, who wrote about the same time, there is a possible allusion to chapter 1:19, and an almost certain reference to 2 Peter 1:21, "Men of God, moved by the Holy Ghost, and becoming prophets, inspired and made wise by God himself, became taught of God" (’Ad Autolycam,’ 2:9).
Eusebius tells us (’Hist. Eccl.,’ 6:14) that Clement of Alexandria wrote expositions, not only of the canonical Scriptures, bat also of the disputed books, as the Epistle of Jude and the remaining Catholic Epistles. Some doubt is thrown upon this assertion by some contradictory statements of Cassiodorus; but, on the whole, it seems probable that the Second Epistle of St. Peter was known to the great master of the catechetical school.
Hippolytus of Portus, who wrote about A.D. 9.20, has a passage which seems to be an expansion of 2 Peter 1:20. He says (’De Antechristo,’ c. 2) that "the prophets spoke not of their own power, nor did they preach what they themselves wished; but first they were gifted with wisdom through the Word, then were well instructed about the future through visions." And in another place he speaks of the "wicked angels chained in Tartarus as punishment for their sins" (’Adv. Haer.,’ 10:30). Origen, who died A.D. 253, was certainly acquainted with both the Epistles of St. Peter. He is quoted by Eusebius (’Hist. Eccl.,’ 6:26) as saying, "Peter has left one acknowledged Epistle: let it be granted that he left also a second, for this is disputed." In the ’Homilies,’ which we have only in the Latin translation of Rufinus, he thrice mentions the Second Epistle: "Peter sounds forth with the two trumpets of his Epistles" (Hom. 7. on Joshua); "And again Peter says, Ye have been made partakers of the Divine nature" (Hom. 4. on Leviticus); "As the Scripture saith in a certain place, A dumb animal, answering with human voice, forbade the madness of the prophet". But there are no quotations from the Epistle in his extant Greek works, and he twice speaks of the First Epistle as the Catholic Epistle of Peter.

The rest can be found on bible hub or other sources if you are interested.

Blessings
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#38
Peter calls his writings scripture.
Thank you for your response, but it always seems there is conflict in the Epistles, for most disagreements occur when basin arguments on the em. I know I could be wrong, but God knows I do rely first on any subject, the teachings of Jesus Yeshua.
 

ThyKingdomComeSoon

Well-known member
Apr 1, 2023
974
596
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#39
Thank you for your response, but it always seems there is conflict in the Epistles, for most disagreements occur when basin arguments on the em. I know I could be wrong, but God knows I do rely first on any subject, the teachings of Jesus Yeshua.
Same here brother JaumeJ, I rely heavily on the words and teachings of Jesus Yeshua.

Blessings.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,319
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#40
What are you trying to make me say? like you mentioned before in another thread you know well how to get any info on scripture.

In case, here is a pulpit commentary for the book of 2 peter, there is plenty of info or commentary on bible hub you can search from there;
2 Peter
Introduction.
1. GENUINENESS OF THE EPISTLE.
1. External Evidence.
IN considering the genuineness of this Epistle we are confronted at once with the well-known words of Eusebius. He says, in his ’Ecclesiastical History,’ which seems to have been finished in A.D. 325, "One Epistle of Peter, which is called the first, is accepted; and this the presbyters of old have used in their writings as undoubted. But that which is circulated as his Second Epistle we have received to be not canonical. Nevertheless, as it appeared to many to be useful, it has been diligently read with the other Scriptures" (Eusebius, ’Hist. Eccl.,’ 3:3). In the same chapter he says that he knows only one genuine Epistle among the writings attributed to St. Peter; and in book 3:25 he classes the Second Epistle with those of James and Jude, as "disputed, indeed, but known to most men."
There are no direct quotations from this Epistle in the Christian writings of the first two centuries; there are, however, some scattered allusions which seem to imply acquaintance with it. Thus Clement of Rome, in his ’Epistle to the Corinthians,’ written about A.D. 100, says (chapter 23.), "Let that Scripture be far from us where it says, Wretched are the double-minded,... who say, These things we heard even in the time of our fathers, and, behold, we have grown old, and none of these things has happened to us." The same passage is quoted with slight differences in the so-called second epistle of Clement, where it is introduced with the words, "For also the prophetic word (ὁ προφητικοÌς λοìγος) says." Clement seems to have had in his mind recollections of chapter 3:4 and James 1:8. The words of the second epistle (written, perhaps, about the middle of the second century) remind us also of 2 Peter 1:19 (τοÌν προφητικοÌν λοìγον). The remainder of the passage, as quoted in 1 Clement 23, and 2 Clement 11, is quite different from St. Peter. It is therefore possible that Clement may be quoting some apocryphal writing; but it is at least probable that he is mixing together reminiscences of James 1:8 and chapter 3:4, with additions derived from some unknown source. The early Fathers were accustomed to give the sense, not the exact words, of their citations, often, it seems, quoting from memory; but even if we suppose that the passage was borrowed immediately from some unknown writer, it remains probable that that writer, older than Clement or contemporary with him, was acquainted with this Epistle. The μεγαλοπρεπηÌς δοìξα of 1 Clement 9. looks like a recollection of the same remarkable words in 2 Peter 1:17. It is also probable that in 1 Clement 7 and 9 there is a reference to 2 Peter 2:5, and in 1 Clement 11 to 2 Peter 2:6-9. In the ’Shepherd of Hermas’ there are three or four apparent allusions to this Epistle. Thus the words, τη῀ς τρυφη῀ς καιÌ τη῀ς ἀπαìτης ὁ χροìνος ὡìρα ἐστιÌ μιìα (’Sim.,’ 6:4) remind us of chapter 2:13. So in ’Vis.,’ 3:7, I the words, "Who... have forsaken the true way," may be an echo of chapter 2:15, and "Ye who have escaped the world" (’Vis.,’ 4:3.2), of chapter 2:20. Justin Martyr says, in controversy with the Jew Trypho, "As there were false prophets in the time of your holy prophets, so now there are many false teachers among us," in which words there seems to be a reminiscence of chapter 2:1. In the same book he says, "The day of the Lord is as a thousand years," which may be suggested by Psalm 90:4, but more nearly resembles chapter 3:8 — a passage to which possible allusions occur in the epistle ascribed to Barnabas, in Irenaeus, and Hippolytus.
In the Apology addressed to Antoninus by Melito of Sardis, about A.D. 170, there is a passage which closely resembles 2 Peter 3:5-7. Irenaeus also speaks of the conflagration of the universe as a "diluvium ignis;" and it may be noted, as at least a remarkable coincidence, that in speaking of the death of St. Peter he has the same word, ἐìξοδος, which is used in chapter 1:15. In the writings of Theophilus of Antioch, who wrote about the same time, there is a possible allusion to chapter 1:19, and an almost certain reference to 2 Peter 1:21, "Men of God, moved by the Holy Ghost, and becoming prophets, inspired and made wise by God himself, became taught of God" (’Ad Autolycam,’ 2:9).
Eusebius tells us (’Hist. Eccl.,’ 6:14) that Clement of Alexandria wrote expositions, not only of the canonical Scriptures, bat also of the disputed books, as the Epistle of Jude and the remaining Catholic Epistles. Some doubt is thrown upon this assertion by some contradictory statements of Cassiodorus; but, on the whole, it seems probable that the Second Epistle of St. Peter was known to the great master of the catechetical school.
Hippolytus of Portus, who wrote about A.D. 9.20, has a passage which seems to be an expansion of 2 Peter 1:20. He says (’De Antechristo,’ c. 2) that "the prophets spoke not of their own power, nor did they preach what they themselves wished; but first they were gifted with wisdom through the Word, then were well instructed about the future through visions." And in another place he speaks of the "wicked angels chained in Tartarus as punishment for their sins" (’Adv. Haer.,’ 10:30). Origen, who died A.D. 253, was certainly acquainted with both the Epistles of St. Peter. He is quoted by Eusebius (’Hist. Eccl.,’ 6:26) as saying, "Peter has left one acknowledged Epistle: let it be granted that he left also a second, for this is disputed." In the ’Homilies,’ which we have only in the Latin translation of Rufinus, he thrice mentions the Second Epistle: "Peter sounds forth with the two trumpets of his Epistles" (Hom. 7. on Joshua); "And again Peter says, Ye have been made partakers of the Divine nature" (Hom. 4. on Leviticus); "As the Scripture saith in a certain place, A dumb animal, answering with human voice, forbade the madness of the prophet". But there are no quotations from the Epistle in his extant Greek works, and he twice speaks of the First Epistle as the Catholic Epistle of Peter.

The rest can be found on bible hub or other sources if you are interested.

Blessings
Sure. So are the epistles of Peter and Paul scripture? Are they corrupted? Is Luke writing under inspiration in Acts where portions of Paul's life are recorded? Is Acts corrupted?

What about the books written by OT prophets? Don't they write concerning themselves? Are they to be trusted? They never met Christ in the flesh.

I asked the questions I did because I was curious what you believe the substance and purpose of epistles are? You don't seem to regard them as authoritative as the actual words of Jesus or other scripture. I was trying to find out why that would be the case.