Predestination is misunderstood...

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Johann

Active member
Apr 12, 2022
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Well stated, brother, well stated! Using a Shakesperian analogy might help us to better understand the relationship between God's sovereignty and our free moral agency. The Bard famously said once:

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts...


The full quote is much longer, of course. Not only is what Shakespeare explicitly stated important, but what he also implied is equally important. If all the people of this world are merely "actors" on the world stage -- all dutifully playing our parts -- then who is directing this play? Who is producing this play? Who wrote the script?

Moreover, since we all play our parts, don't we play them willingly? Does anyone from without force us to play our parts?

Even though the Bard was not a particularly religious person, let alone a Christian, he had a decent grasp on reality. It appears he had a sense that someone greater than us "actors" was calling the shots on the world stage. The quote implies a sovereign "script writer" working with a willing cast. Now just how does the human will and divine will work when they intersect -- well, that we'll never understand. That's above our finite pay grade.
Well said brother.
Shalom
J.
 

Johann

Active member
Apr 12, 2022
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Well said brother.
Shalom
J.
All the world’s a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages. At first the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse’s arms.
Then the whining schoolboy, with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress’ eyebrow. Then a soldier,
Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard,
Jealous in honour, sudden and quick in quarrel,
Seeking the bubble reputation
Even in the cannon’s mouth. And then the justice,
In fair round belly with good capon lined,
With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws and modern instances;
And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slippered pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side,
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank; and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.​
Shakespeare's words continue to inspire readers and scholars alike, offering rich insights into the human condition and the universal themes of aging, identity, and mortality.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
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"For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world
to be holy and blameless in His presence."


Ephesians 1:4​

It does not say that we were simply chosen by Him.
But, specifically, that we were "chosen in Him."

What does "chosen in Him" mean?

Understanding that phrase is the key to understanding predestination.

grace and peace ..............
Important to note who this is addressed to... the Church at Ephesus and the faithful, not just any particular individual. Some may jump overboard, but the Church will certainly reach that distant shore with all that remain faithful safely onboard.

Ephesians 1:

1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,973
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Then why would you keep
Posting a passage saying you can confess your smaller sin and be forgiven?

Do you have a problem? You just want to attack me or do you want to discuss the word?
Smaller sin? No sin is small in regards to losing the filling of the Holy Spirit.
God gave us 1 John 1:9 as our spiritual circuit breaker for when we short circuit the Spirit's filling with any sin.


If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us
our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."


If you short circuit a power outlet with a small wire?
Or, with a big thick wire?
The circuit breaker will react, and open the circuit just the same.

Resetting the circuit breaker restores the flowing of power.
Likewise, acknowledging your sins to God?
That resets our spiritual circuit breaker, and restores us the filling of the Holy Spirit!

Does not matter if its a big sin, or a smaller sin.
A short circuit is a short circuit and will trip a circuit breaker.

grace and peace ................
 

Johann

Active member
Apr 12, 2022
928
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Yep your pride has no mercy
I think you misconstrue my pathos, zest and zeal for Yeshua HaMashiach and His glory as "pride" I am fallible-and pride is ever lurking in ALL of us-in all forms, shapes and manifestations and we ALL need to examine OURSELVES and work out OUR salvation with fear and trembling.

You are a accuser of the brethren-what is there between me and you?
 

Johann

Active member
Apr 12, 2022
928
212
43
Important to note who this is addressed to... the Church at Ephesus and the faithful, not just any particular individual. Some may jump overboard, but the Church will certainly reach that distant shore with all that remain faithful safely onboard.

Ephesians 1:

1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Wouldn't go that far-no offense


The epistle to the Ephesians, authored by Paul, is primarily intended for the church community in Ephesus. However, the principles and teachings presented in the letter are universally applicable to all believers throughout history. The Book of Ephesians addresses fundamental aspects of Christianity, such as the unity of the church, the role of Christ, and the importance of spiritual growth. Therefore, although the original audience was the church in Ephesus, the content remains relevant and beneficial for contemporary Christians worldwide

In addition, the letter to the Ephesians in the Book of Revelation, which mentions the church in Ephesus, emphasizes the importance of maintaining the initial fervor of faith rather than falling away from the love of Christ.

Although this passage speaks directly to the church in Ephesus, it provides valuable insight into the potential challenges faced by all believers regarding maintaining their devotion and zeal for Christ
J.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
Wouldn't go that far-no offense


The epistle to the Ephesians, authored by Paul, is primarily intended for the church community in Ephesus. However, the principles and teachings presented in the letter are universally applicable to all believers throughout history. The Book of Ephesians addresses fundamental aspects of Christianity, such as the unity of the church, the role of Christ, and the importance of spiritual growth. Therefore, although the original audience was the church in Ephesus, the content remains relevant and beneficial for contemporary Christians worldwide

In addition, the letter to the Ephesians in the Book of Revelation, which mentions the church in Ephesus, emphasizes the importance of maintaining the initial fervor of faith rather than falling away from the love of Christ.

Although this passage speaks directly to the church in Ephesus, it provides valuable insight into the potential challenges faced by all believers regarding maintaining their devotion and zeal for Christ
J.
Yes. Completely agree that it is pertinent to the modern-day Church. (y)
 
Dec 18, 2023
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I think you misconstrue my pathos, zest and zeal for Yeshua HaMashiach and His glory as "pride" I am fallible-and pride is ever lurking in ALL of us-in all forms, shapes and manifestations and we ALL need to examine OURSELVES and work out OUR salvation with fear and trembling.

You are a accuser of the brethren-what is there between me and you?
You called my best friend a troll here after I told you politely he had disability, and that was after I had already forgiven you for being condescending towards him.

He is also on the verge of suicide.

Not eating and in bad way.

So no I'm not going to drop my guard here,

I can live in hostility, and all your insults to come, which will come, because I know your pride all to well.

The one that will stab someone in the back to win an argument, or the one that will invite you in and befriend you, just like twisted satan.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
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We need to give each other the benefit of the doubt and understand that statements can easily be misconstrued.
 

Johann

Active member
Apr 12, 2022
928
212
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Yes. Completely agree that it is pertinent to the modern-day Church. (y)
Romans-Colossians and Ephesians-my "favorites" although I am well aware I should not have favorites.
be blessed
Johann.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
Romans-Colossians and Ephesians-my "favorites" although I am well aware I should not have favorites.
be blessed
Johann.
I like the John stuff. Simplicity is elegant. I never found Rev to be difficult. I'm not sure that John understood everything He saw, but he was a simple and honest reporter.

It is indeed good that we read everything, though.
 

Johann

Active member
Apr 12, 2022
928
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43
I like the John stuff. Simplicity is elegant. I never found Rev to be difficult. I'm not sure that John understood everything He saw, but he was a simple and honest reporter.

It is indeed good that we read everything, though.
I must confess eschatology is not my strong point-still a work in progress but I love the Pauline writings-and STILL learning.
Johann.
 

sawdust

Active member
Feb 12, 2024
940
194
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67
Australia
where the Israelites practicing faith before they where exiled, ?

Answer yes

Where people moved by the holy spirit, before they received the holy spirit, ?

answer yes

Did people walk with God and stil reject God,

answer yes

Did people walk with God, and God still put them to death.

answer yes.

So the answer is, it's possible to have faith that does not receive salvation
??????????

If you think any of that is true?

I'll leave you to your thoughts. :)
 
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
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??????????

If you think any of that is true?

I'll leave you to your thoughts. :)
All true, I can pull more scripture up concerning God, rejecting people whom he had chosen, people who had walked with him to.

    • Jeremiah 7

New International Version

False Religion Worthless



7 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Stand at the gate of the Lord’s house and there proclaim this message:
“‘Hear the word of the Lord, all you people of Judah who come through these gates to worship the Lord. 3 This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Reform your ways and your actions, and I will let you live in this place. 4 Do not trust in deceptive words and say, “This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord!” 5 If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, 6 if you do not oppress the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm, 7 then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your ancestors for ever and ever. 8 But look, you are trusting in deceptive words that are worthless.
9 “‘Will you steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury,[a] burn incense to Baal and follow other gods you have not known, 10 and then come and stand before me in this house, which bears my Name, and say, “We are safe”—safe to do all these detestable things? 11 Has this house, which bears my Name, become a den of robbers to you? But I have been watching! declares the Lord.
12 “‘Go now to the place in Shiloh where I first made a dwelling for my Name, and see what I did to it because of the wickedness of my people Israel. 13 While you were doing all these things, declares the Lord, I spoke to you again and again, but you did not listen; I called you, but you did not answer. 14 Therefore, what I did to Shiloh I will now do to the house that bears my Name, the temple you trust in, the place I gave to you and your ancestors. 15 I will thrust you from my presence, just as I did all your fellow Israelites, the people of Ephraim.’
16 “So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you. 17 Do you not see what they are doing in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes to offer to the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to arouse my anger. 19 But am I the one they are provoking? declares the Lord. Are they not rather harming themselves, to their own shame?
20 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: My anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place—on man and beast, on the trees of the field and on the crops of your land—and it will burn and not be quenched.
21 “‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Go ahead, add your burnt offerings to your other sacrifices and eat the meat yourselves! 22 For when I brought your ancestors out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices, 23 but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in obedience to all I command you, that it may go well with you. 24 But they did not listen or pay attention; instead, they followed the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts. They went backward and not forward. 25 From the time your ancestors left Egypt until now, day after day, again and again I sent you my servants the prophets. 26 But they did not listen to me or pay attention. They were stiff-necked and did more evil than their ancestors.’
27 “When you tell them all this, they will not listen to you; when you call to them, they will not answer. 28 Therefore say to them, ‘This is the nation that has not obeyed the Lord its God or responded to correction. Truth has perished; it has vanished from their lips.
29 “‘Cut off your hair and throw it away; take up a lament on the barren heights, for the Lord has rejected and abandoned this generation that is under his wrath.
The Valley of Slaughter
30 “‘The people of Judah have done evil in my eyes, declares the Lord. They have set up their detestable idols in the house that bears my Name and have defiled it. 31 They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. 32 So beware, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room. 33 Then the carcasses of this people will become food for the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 34 I will bring an end to the sounds of joy and gladness and to the voices of bride and bridegroom in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem, for the land will become desolate.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
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It is not easy-I have to admit.

Firstly, let's define the terms:
Foreknowledge (próginōskō) in Greek refers to knowing beforehand or having advanced information about something.

Omniscience describes the ability to know everything without limitation.
Secondly, let's analyze the proposed options:

Option 1: God's foreknowledge derives solely from His omniscience.
According to this position, God knows everything, and His foreknowledge is simply an aspect of His omniscience. There isn't any explicit mention of this particular relationship between foreknowledge and omniscience in the Bible. However, the assumption that God possesses infinite knowledge aligns well with the concept of omniscience.

Option 2: God's foreknowledge does not derive from His omniscience.
This position proposes that God's foreknowledge exists independently of His omniscience. Such a notion contradicts the traditional understanding of God's attributes, which typically includes omniscience. Moreover, the absence of any supporting biblical evidence renders Option 2 less plausible.
Option 3: God's foreknowledge partly derives from His omniscience and partly from His intimate knowledge of believers.

This position combines elements of Options 1 and 2, acknowledging that God's foreknowledge stems from both His omniscience and His intimate knowledge of believers. Although the Bible does not explicitly state this combination, it allows for the possibility that God's foreknowledge arises from both His omniscience and His special concern for His chosen ones.

Thirdly, let's consider the Hebrew and Greek terminology:
The Greek term próginōskō appears in Romans 8:29, where it is translated as "foreknew".
The Hebrew term 'ydāʻ in Jeremiah 1:5 signifies the act of creating or fashioning something intricate or complex.

Fourthly, let's summarize the exegetical findings:
The Bible does not explicitly state that God's foreknowledge derives either solely from His omniscience or from another source.

A combination of God's omniscience and His intimate knowledge of believers provides a possible explanation for God's foreknowledge.

The Greek term próginōskō and the Hebrew term 'ydāʻ do not inherently indicate that God's foreknowledge derives exclusively from His omniscience.

Therefore, although the Bible does not explicitly endorse Option 3, it leaves room for considering the possibility that God's foreknowledge partly derives from His omniscience and partly from His intimate knowledge of believers.
J.
I would propose another option

Gods intimate knowledge about people derives from his omniscience.

Its how he can set Pharaoh as king in Egypt. Because God not only knows him personally, He knows how he will react no matter what situation.

it leaves his sovereignty in tact. while also leaving Pharaohs free will intact.

it also explains why he could call the young man David a man after his own heart. Knowing not only the good he will do through his faith. but the evil he would do.

its part of what makes him God. we can not do that. the best we can do is guess how those closest to us will respond.