the Sabbath

[Cameron143]

Absolutely yes! why?
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Jhn 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Jhn 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Peace

I was just asking because you mentioned that Jesus' words words were set apart in red. For some, they believe the words He spoke as a man carry more weight because He is the vessel they come through.

 

[Johann]

Paul offers good advice:
[2Ti 2:15 KJV] 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
What is happening here is that two groups have studied and arrived at different opinions.

From one ditch into another ditch-thank you for the reminder that PAUL still offers good advice and Imperatives!

2Pe 3:16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.


"as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures."To provide a holistic context for this verse, we need to consider the broader context of 2 Peter 3. In this chapter, Peter is addressing the issue of scoffers who deny the second coming of Jesus Christ and mock the idea of judgment. Peter reminds his readers that God's judgment is certain and that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. He also emphasizes the importance of living holy and godly lives in anticipation of Christ's return.Now, let's break down 2 Peter 3:16 word for word in the original Greek:

• "ὡς καὶ ἐν πάσαις ταῖς ἐπιστολαῖς λαλῶν ἐν αὐταῖς περὶ τούτων, ἐν αἷς ἐστιν δυσνόητά τινα, ἃ οἱ ἀμαθεῖς καὶ ἀστήρικτοι στρεβλοῦσιν ὡς καὶ τὰς λοιπὰς γραφάς πρὸς τὴν ἰδίαν αὐτῶν ἀπώλειαν."
• ὡς (hos) - "as"
• καὶ (kai) - "also"
• ἐν (en) - "in"
• πάσαις (pasais) - "all"
• ταῖς (tais) - "the"
• ἐπιστολαῖς (epistolais) - "letters"
• λαλῶν (lalōn) - "speaking"
• ἐν (en) - "in"
• αὐταῖς (autais) - "them"
• περὶ (peri) - "concerning"
• τούτων (toutōn) - "these matters"
• ἐν (en) - "in"
• αἷς (hais) - "which"
• ἐστιν (estin) - "are"
• δυσνόητά (dysnoēta) - "hard to understand"
• τινα (tina) - "some things"
• ἃ (ha) - "which"
• οἱ (hoi) - "the"
• ἀμαθεῖς (amatheis) - "ignorant"
• καὶ (kai) - "and"
• ἀστήρικτοι (astērikti) - "unstable"
• στρεβλοῦσιν (streblousin) - "twist"
• ὡς (hos) - "as"
• καὶ (kai) - "also"
• τὰς (tas) - "the"
• λοιπὰς (loipas) - "other"
• γραφάς (graphas) - "Scriptures"
• πρὸς (pros) - "to"
• τὴν (tēn) - "their"
• ἰδίαν (idian) - "own"
• αὐτῶν (autōn) - "destruction"

To summarize, 2 Peter 3:16 warns that some of the things written by Paul in his letters are difficult to understand, and that some people, who are ignorant and unstable, twist these teachings to their own destruction. This twisting of Scripture is not limited to Paul's letters but also applies to other Scriptures. The verse emphasizes the importance of careful study and interpretation of Scripture, as well as the danger of false teaching and interpretation.


speaking. +*Rom_8:19, *1Co_15:21; *1Co_15:23; *1Co_15:24, *Col_3:4, +*1Th_4:14-18; *1Th_5:1-10, *1Ti_6:14, *2Ti_1:7-8; +*2Ti_4:1; +*2Ti_4:8; +*2Ti_4:18, *Heb_9:28; Heb_10:23-39.
of these things. 2Pe_3:14, 2 Kings 1, Col_3:4, 1Th_4:13; 1Th_5:11, 2Th_2:16.
some things. Notice Peter says some things, not all. The difficulty some readers and interpreters find in understanding parts of Scripture is no argument against perspicuity, the doctrine that Scripture declares it is understandable (Psa_119:130) to the ordinary reader (T1110—1122). This furnishes no basis for those denominations, churches, and religious organizations, even some false cults (some of which appeal to Mat_16:16 or Mat_24:45 to assert their authority), to claim they are the exclusive source for authoritative teaching of the Bible.

Peter warns, in context, that those he speaks of are deficient in their knowledge and have a character problem. He urges us not to be led away with the error of the wicked. We are urged to grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (2Pe_3:18). The only source of this knowledge is the 27 primary documents we have in the New Testament. We need to make it our habit to regularly study the Scriptures, and feed on God’s Word (+1Pe_2:2 note). Psa_119:97.
hard to be understood. Gr. dusnoētos (S# G1425, only here), difficult of perception (Strong). 1Ki_10:1, Pro_1:6; +**Pro_28:5, Joh_6:60, Rom_3:5-8; Rom_3:20-28; Rom_4:15; Rom_5:20; Rom_6:1; Rom_7:4-11; Rom_8:29-30; Rom_9:18-20; Rom_11:33; Rom_14:1-6 with Act_15:29, 1Co_2:13-14, Gal_3:10, 2Th_2:1-12, 2Ti_2:17, *Heb_5:10; *Heb_5:11; Heb_6:4-9.
unlearned. Gr. amathēs (S# G261, only here), ignorant (Strong); lacking in the moral qualities of a balanced judgment (Strachan). This is the central issue, the major problem: people who ought to know better are virtually Biblically illiterate. Joh_17:3, Act_4:13, 1Co_14:16, 2Ti_2:23, Heb_5:11-12; Heb_6:9 note. 1Pe_2:2 note.
unstable. Gr. astēriktos (S# G793, only here and 2Pe_2:14). Refers more to conduct, those whose habits are not fully trained and established (see Strachan).
2Pe_2:14, Gen_49:4, 2Ti_3:5-7, *+Jas_1:8.
wrest. Gr. strebloō (S# G4761, only here), to wrench, that is, (specifically) to torture (by the rack), but only figuratively to pervert (Strong). T1107. Exo_23:2; Exo_23:6, Deu_16:19, 2Sa_22:27 g. Psa_56:5, +*Jer_8:8 mg. Jer_23:36, Hab_1:4, Mat_4:5-6; Mat_15:3-6; Mat_19:3-10; Mat_22:29, Rom_8:21, 1Co_5:9-11, +*2Co_2:17; 2Co_3:17; +*2Co_4:2, Gal_5:13. 2Ti_2:18, 1Pe_2:8.
as they do. Isa_28:16.
the other. Gr. loipoi (S# G3062, Mat_22:6), remaining ones (Strong). The Greek word has reference to others of the same kind. Mat_15:3; Mat_15:6; Mat_22:29; *Mat_25:11, *Act_2:37, *Rom_1:13, *1Co_9:5, *2Co_12:13, *Gal_2:13, *Php_4:3, +*1Ti_5:18, +*2Ti_3:16.
scriptures. Gr. graphē (S# G1124, Mat_21:42). Note that St. Paul’s epistles are called "Scriptures" (CB). In its fifty occurrences, this term is always applied to the Old and New Testament sacred writings. Men in each Church having miraculous discernment of spirits (1Jn_4:1; 2Th_2:2 note) would have prevented any uninspired writing from being put on a par with the OT word of God; the apostles’ lives also were providentially prolonged, Paul’s and Peter’s at least to thirty-four years after Christ’s resurrection, John’s to thirty years beyond them, so that fraud in the canon is out of the question. The three first Gospels and Acts are included in "the other Scriptures" (1Ti_5:18), and perhaps all the NT books, save John and Revelation, written later (see JFB). 2Pe_1:20-21, +Mat_21:42, **1Co_14:37, Col_4:16, 1Th_5:27, +**2Ti_3:15-17, 1Pe_2:6.
unto their own. 2Pe_2:1, +*Php_3:19, 1Pe_2:8, Jud_1:4.
destruction. Gr. apōleia (S# G684, Mat_7:13), ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal) [Strong]. *2Pe_3:6; *2Pe_3:7; *2Pe_3:9, 2Pe_2:1; 2Pe_2:3, Deu_4:2; Deu_12:32, Isa_28:13, 1Ti_5:15, Rev_22:19.

Shalom
J.

 

[vassal]

I am astonished! Paul had a huge ego?!

you do not see this?; all over his writings in abundance, "I, Me , MY, "
a few examples;
1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Gal 2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (SEE ACTS 15:7)
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

what about;
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. ??

sorry about theysmylies they are not from me.... wierd

 

[vassal]

I was just asking because you mentioned that Jesus' words words were set apart in red. For some, they believe the words He spoke as a man carry more weight because He is the vessel they come through.

oh, i see, O.K.

 

[Cameron143]

you do not see this?; all over his writings in abundance, "I, Me , MY, "
a few examples;
1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Gal 2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (SEE ACTS 15:7)
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

what about;
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. ??

sorry about theysmylies they are not from me.... wierd

Paul was anything but proud. He describes himself as a prisoner of the Lord. This can only be the case with one who is humble and submitted fully unto the Lord. A proud person would have blamed his position on the injustice on his captors and been questioning the Lord about his fate. Instead, he accepted it as the will of God for him.
We should all be so disposed.

 

[Johann]

you do not see this?; all over his writings in abundance, "I, Me , MY, "
a few examples;
1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Gal 2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (SEE ACTS 15:7)
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

what about;
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. ??

sorry about theysmylies they are not from me.... wierd

Have you considered this brother?


The claim suggesting that Paul had a substantial ego based solely on the presence of pronouns like "I," "me," "my," throughout his writings is oversimplified and ignores the context of Paul's letters.

A closer examination reveals that Paul frequently emphasizes his weaknesses and humility while highlighting the power of God's grace and the importance of submission to Christ.

In the provided passages, Paul repeatedly acknowledges his shortcomings and lack of qualifications compared to other apostles. For example, in 1 Corinthians 15:9, Paul states that he is the least among the apostles due to his previous persecution of Christians. Similarly, in verse 10, he attributes his success to divine grace rather than his own abilities.

Furthermore, in Galatians 2:6-9, Paul describes encounters with other apostles where he stresses that his mission was not self-driven but divinely appointed. When the Jerusalem council recognized Paul's commission to spread the Gospel to the Gentiles, the other apostles supported him without adding anything new to his message (verse 7). Paul's confrontation with Peter in Galatians 2:11 demonstrates his willingness to challenge another apostle if needed, but this action was motivated by maintaining the integrity of the Gospel rather than elevating himself above others.

Therefore, although Paul uses the first-person pronoun often, it is within the framework of expressing his reliance on God's strength and his commitment to serving the Church according to God's will. While one could argue that Paul's confidence in his calling could appear egotistic, the overall tenor of his letters suggests otherwise. Instead, Paul consistently presents himself as a servant of Christ and a steward of God's grace.

Confidence in one's calling and ability to communicate the Gospel effectively does not necessarily equate to having an inflated sense of self. Rather, it reflects Paul's conviction that he is fulfilling the purpose for which God chose him.

Do you still hold that Paul had an overinflated ego?

 

[rrcn]

you do not see this?; all over his writings in abundance, "I, Me , MY, "
a few examples;
1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Gal 2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (SEE ACTS 15:7)
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

what about;
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. ??

sorry about theysmylies they are not from me.... wierd

 

[rrcn]

; plus ) is

 

[Cameron143]

; plus ) is

Learn something new every day.

 

[Aaron56]

The reason why I don't want to enter into a discussion re the Sabbath.


The debate surrounding the applicability of the 4th commandment from the 10 commandments to the body of Christ is multifaceted, with various perspectives -
Banner of Truth: The article suggests that the Sabbath commandment is seen as a type of rest in Christ and has found its fulfillment in Him. It argues that while the other nine commandments are moral in nature, the Sabbath commandment is a ceremonial ordinance given to the old covenant people and is not applicable to new covenant believers

Puritan Board: The discussion on this forum reflects a view that the 4th Commandment has not been abrogated in the New Covenant. It emphasizes that the Sabbath observance has its roots in creation and that both Sabbatarians and those who believe the 4th Commandment has been abrogated may be neglecting certain teachings in the New Testament

Ligonier: The article from Ligonier presents a perspective that while new covenant believers no longer observe a seventh-day Sabbath, they still follow the principle of Sabbath observance by setting aside the first day of the week for Christian worship. It highlights that under the new covenant, the focus is on celebrating God's new creation in Christ

HRW Church: This source discusses how the early church transitioned from Saturday Sabbath observance to Sunday worship, emphasizing that Sunday became the main day of corporate worship. It notes that while some Christians may view Sunday as the Sabbath day, in reality, every day is recognized as holy in the New Covenant

In conclusion, there are differing views on whether the 4th commandment applies to Christians under the new covenant. Some argue for its continued relevance, while others suggest its fulfillment in Christ has altered its application. Ultimately, individual interpretations may vary based on theological perspectives and understandings of biblical teachings.


Rom 14:5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.
Rom 14:7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself.
Rom 14:8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's.


In Romans 14:5-8, Paul provides guidance on issues related to personal convictions concerning dietary restrictions and Sabbath observances. The exegetical summation and context of these verses are as follows:

Verses 5 and 6 address differences in opinion regarding the value of specific days and food preferences. Paul encourages acceptance and tolerance, stating that each person should be fully convinced in their own minds and that everyone honors God in their respective choices. Whether someone observes a special day or abstains from certain foods, they do so in honor of the Lord and give thanks to God.
Verse 7 reinforces the interconnectedness of all humans, emphasizing that no one exists independently. Our lives and deaths are tied to God, and we belong to Him.
Verse 8 draws the conclusion that, regardless of whether we live or die, we remain the Lord's property. Therefore, we should conduct ourselves accordingly, honoring God in all aspects of our lives.
Paul's primary goal in addressing these topics is to foster unity and harmony within the church, encouraging believers to accept one another despite differences in opinions and practices. The underlying principle is that, above all else, we belong to God and should strive to glorify Him in all we say and do.

Johann.

This is wisdom. There is no problem with one calling a day more special than another.

However, the Saturday sabbath observers claim a better standing with Christ because of their liturgy. And, they bring into the New Covenant the rules given at Sinai.

This is Judaism, which those in Christ are to reject wholesale.

 

[Johann]

This is wisdom. There is no problem with one calling a day more special than another.

However, the Saturday sabbath observers claim a better standing with Christ because of their liturgy. And, they bring into the New Covenant the rules given at Sinai.

This is Judaism, which those in Christ are to reject wholesale.

Well said-


Judaism and Christianity share historical roots and foundational beliefs, including monotheism, belief in prophets, and the concept of salvation. They both trace their origins back to Abraham and the Hebrew Scriptures, also known as the Old Testament. Despite significant differences in doctrine, liturgy, and practices, there exists some common ground between the two faiths.

However, Judaism and Christianity do not directly overlap, as Christianity emerged from within Second Temple Judaism during the 1st century CE, emphasizing the role of Jesus Christ as the Messiah and Son of God. This distinction leads to fundamental differences in theological perspectives, particularly regarding the nature of salvation, the interpretation of scripture, and the status of religious law.

Judaism and Islam, on the other hand, have less compatibility due to differing views on central figures and teachings. While Judaism and Christianity share a history and many values, Judaism and Islam are distinct religions with separate histories and theologies.

In summary, although Judaism and Christianity share historical connections and some basic principles, they are fundamentally distinct religions with unique beliefs and practices. There is no direct compatibility between Judaism and Christianity in terms of being mutually exclusive systems of faith.

Sad-but true.
J.

 

[Magenta]

Not once does God say He establishes His Covenant on better or new laws

Hebrews 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed as well.

John 13:34
A new commandment I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you also must love one another.

Romans 13:10

 

[vassal]

Judaism,

Are we to reject it or reject the false Judaism of the pharisee that perverted the law and commandments of GOD? To reject Judaism is to reject the messiah and GOD. JESUS was a Jew do not forget this how can we say reject judaism wholesale?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

We are saved by grace through faith of Jesus alone. Those with faith keep God's law. Its the faith that saves us through the blood of Jesus, keeping God's law is a result of Christ's salvation in us. Rev 14:12.

We all deserve the death penalty because all has sinned, so the law can't save us, it just reveals our condition and so we rely on God's righteousness, not our own Psa 119:172. A righteous man will turn to Jesus for repentance and cleansing.

But you can’t keep the law. The fact you think you can is worrysome

 

[Magenta]

Judaism,

Are we to reject it or reject the false Judaism of the pharisee that perverted the law and commandments of GOD? To reject Judaism is to reject the messiah and GOD. JESUS was a Jew do not forget this how can we say reject judaism wholesale?

Hebrews 8:13
By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Hey, nobody can practice Judaism as Jesus did. Why does anyone pretend they can?

 

[Cameron143]

Hebrews 8:13
By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Hey, nobody can practice Judaism as Jesus did. Why does anyone pretend they can?

Another question would be...why would they want to?

 

[Magenta]

Another question would be...why would they want to?

We can guess at answers... like they want to appear to be more righteous than they really are.

Which means they overlook the fact that Jesus cursed the temple system because it was unfruitful.

Unfruitful beyond accomplishes its ultimate goal: pointing forward to Him.

Then, He brought it to an end. Yet people say, oh we must, we must! Even though it is impossible.

 

[vassal]

Hebrews 8:13
By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Hey, nobody can practice Judaism as Jesus did. Why does anyone pretend they can?

Magenta true most of the mosaic law cannot be followed, but the covenant is mainly about the 10 commandments.

The new covenant is not yet in effect see my post;
https://christianchat.com/threads/the-sabbath.213758/post-5249035

 

[Cameron143]

We can guess at answers... like they want to appear to be more righteous than they really are.

Which means they overlook the fact that Jesus cursed the temple system because it was unfruitful.

He brought it to an end. Yet people say, oh we must, we must! Even though it is impossible.

Most error comes from our preconceptions about God and His ways. As much as we want to believe we are submitted to God and understanding of Him and His ways, we are seldom what we suppose ourselves to be.

 

[Cameron143]

Magenta true most of the mosaic law cannot be followed, but the covenant is mainly about the 10 commandments.

The new covenant is not yet in effect see my post;
https://christianchat.com/threads/the-sabbath.213758/post-5249035

This is incorrect and the source of your error. The cross ushered in the new covenant.