The Torah is Still Binding and We Must Obey It

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
857
102
43
What is your source? Unless you can type a 1000 words in a second I guess I have the right to ask you your source.
Thanks.
I did not use copy/paste in my reply to you, but rather those are my own thoughts on the passage. I've been replying to this thread for over the past hour, but I do not type 1000 words a second.
 

Johann

Active member
Apr 12, 2022
928
212
43
I did not use copy/paste in my reply to you, but rather those are my own thoughts on the passage. I've been replying to this thread for over the past hour, but I do not type 1000 words a second.
I am not saying you are lying-but you came back with a rather lengthy response in about 2 seconds after my post-how did you accomplish this?
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
3,218
1,614
113
Midwest
op: The Torah is still binding & we MUST obey it?

"What Saith The Scripture?":

A) knowing "the purpose" of the law:

"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man,​
but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for​
sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and​
murderers of mothers, for manslayers" (1 Timothy 1:9)​

B) knowing why it "is still binding" for the unrighteous man (who will
Never 'obey it' all, Christ Being The Only "Perfect Obeyer" of law):​
"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto​
Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith
is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.” ‭​
‭(Galatians‬ ‭3:24 ‭AV‬)‬​
C) knowing what happens to "those who insist they are 'of the law,' and
think they are obeying all of it for their salvation"?:​

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it​
is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which​
are written in the book of the law to do them." (Galatians 3:10 AV)​

D) knowing .... The Final Judgment .... of those who think they are obeying,
and calling The Righteous Judge "Lord, Lord" and Also boasting of ↑ ↑ ↑?:​

"Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the​
kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth The Will of My Father Which​
is in heaven.​
Many will say to Me In That Day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied​
in Thy Name? and in Thy Name have cast out devils? and in Thy​
Name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto​
them, I Never Knew you: Depart from Me, ye that work iniquity. "​
(Matthew 7:21-23 AV)​
Conclusion1: Yes, the law is "still binding" for the unrighteous, and:

For any and all "who are of the law, and still under it's curse," who read God's
Word For you today, and, who wish Eternal Life, see God's Simple Will!

For those who are Under Grace, with "Freedom And Liberty" to serve God:

E) our position, as "righteous in The Body Of Christ":

"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are
not under the law, but under Grace." (Romans 6:14 AV)​
"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law,​
but under Grace? God forbid." (Romans 6:15 AV)​

--------------------
Conclusion2:

"Christ Hath Redeemed us from the curse of the law,​
being made a curse for us: for It Is Written, Cursed is​
every one that hangeth on a tree" (Galatians 3:13 AV)​

We, the BLOOD-Washed righteous, should all "obey the New Law":

"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works?​
Nay: but by The Law of faith." (Romans 3:27 AV):​
+
"For By Grace are ye Saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:​
it is The Gift Of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.​
For we are His Workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,​
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."​
(Ephesians 2:8-10; All commands in Romans - Philemon AV)​

"Simplicity In Christ" For the obedience of the new-born babe?:

►► The New law of faith which worketh By love ◄◄

All believers Should do "good works" {Which will Never
Equal CHRIST's Payment For the Penalty of sin!},
for Which we Are Created In CHRIST JESUS, to perform
for Him, having "been Called into fellowship With Him!"
(
Ephesians 2:10; 1 Corinthians 1:9) Amen?:

We "work out our own salvation" (Philippians 2:12). This
Should Be a lifetime of Daily submission, and renewing,
being "not conformed to this world" (Romans 12:1-2),
for Grace Deliverance From the power of sin!}
(2 Corinthians 1:10b) = personal sanctification:

How we, righteous, who have obeyed The Gospel of The Grace
of God, although 'not under the law,' "Fulfil All the law", by Grace,
With Christ Living In
us:

In "One Word: Love thy neighbor as thyself!"​
His Spirit Guiding and Teaching us, for God's Approval, How To:

Study to Be APPROVED Open Bible.png

Example
 

jamessb

Active member
Feb 10, 2024
738
122
43
Santa Fe NM
op: The Torah is still binding & we MUST obey it?

"What Saith The Scripture?":

A) knowing "the purpose" of the law:

"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man,​
but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for​
sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and​
murderers of mothers, for manslayers" (1 Timothy 1:9)​

B) knowing why it "is still binding" for the unrighteous man (who will
Never 'obey it' all, Christ Being The Only "Perfect Obeyer" of law):​
"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto​
Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith
is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.” ‭​
‭(Galatians‬ ‭3:24 ‭AV‬)‬​
C) knowing what happens to "those who insist they are 'of the law,' and
think they are obeying all of it for their salvation"?:​

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it​
is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which​
are written in the book of the law to do them." (Galatians 3:10 AV)​

D) knowing .... The Final Judgment .... of those who think they are obeying,
and calling The Righteous Judge "Lord, Lord" and Also boasting of ↑ ↑ ↑?:​

"Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the​
kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth The Will of My Father Which​
is in heaven.​
Many will say to Me In That Day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied​
in Thy Name? and in Thy Name have cast out devils? and in Thy​
Name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto​
them, I Never Knew you: Depart from Me, ye that work iniquity. "​
(Matthew 7:21-23 AV)​
Conclusion1: Yes, the law is "still binding" for the unrighteous, and:

For any and all "who are of the law, and still under it's curse," who read God's
Word For you today, and, who wish Eternal Life, see God's Simple Will!

For those who are Under Grace, with "Freedom And Liberty" to serve God:

E) our position, as "righteous in The Body Of Christ":

"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are
not under the law, but under Grace." (Romans 6:14 AV)​
"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law,​
but under Grace? God forbid." (Romans 6:15 AV)​

--------------------
Conclusion2:

"Christ Hath Redeemed us from the curse of the law,​
being made a curse for us: for It Is Written, Cursed is​
every one that hangeth on a tree" (Galatians 3:13 AV)​

We, the BLOOD-Washed righteous, should all "obey the New Law":

"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works?​
Nay: but by The Law of faith." (Romans 3:27 AV):​
+
"For By Grace are ye Saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:​
it is The Gift Of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.​
For we are His Workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,​
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."​
(Ephesians 2:8-10; All commands in Romans - Philemon AV)​

"Simplicity In Christ" For the obedience of the new-born babe?:

►► The New law of faith which worketh By love ◄◄

All believers Should do "good works" {Which will Never
Equal CHRIST's Payment For the Penalty of sin!},
for Which we Are Created In CHRIST JESUS, to perform
for Him, having "been Called into fellowship With Him!"
(
Ephesians 2:10; 1 Corinthians 1:9) Amen?:

We "work out our own salvation" (Philippians 2:12). This
Should Be a lifetime of Daily submission, and renewing,
being "not conformed to this world" (Romans 12:1-2),
for Grace Deliverance From the power of sin!}
(2 Corinthians 1:10b) = personal sanctification:

How we, righteous, who have obeyed The Gospel of The Grace
of God, although 'not under the law,' "Fulfil All the law", by Grace,
With Christ Living In
us:

In "One Word: Love thy neighbor as thyself!"​
His Spirit Guiding and Teaching us, for God's Approval, How To:

View attachment 261261

Example
Hebrews 10:1-14 (with my emphases)

"The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:

“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.’”
First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy."
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
857
102
43
I am not saying you are lying-but you came back with a rather lengthy response in about 2 seconds after my post-how did you accomplish this?
There was at least a half hour between when you posted and when I replied, which is more than sufficient time for me to type it.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,777
113
The Torah is part of the old covenant...
Just reverse that statement.

The Torah (one scroll called Sefer Torah) is in fact the first five books of the Hebrew Bible (the Tanakh) from Genesis to Deuteronomy (with Hebrew names which correspond to the first few words of each book in Hebrew).
Genesis = Bereshith = "In the beginning"
Exodus = Shemoth = "Now these are the names"
Leviticus = Vayyikra = "And He [the LORD] called"
Numbers = Bemidbar = "In the wilderness"
Deuteronomy = Devarim = "The words"

The Old Covenant is contained within Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,334
29,582
113
Just reverse that statement.

The Torah (one scroll called Sefer Torah) is in fact the first five books of the Hebrew Bible (the Tanakh) from Genesis to Deuteronomy (with Hebrew names which correspond to the first few words of each book in Hebrew).
Genesis = Bereshith = "In the beginning"
Exodus = Shemoth = "Now these are the names"
Leviticus = Vayyikra = "And He [the LORD] called"
Numbers = Bemidbar = "In the wilderness"
Deuteronomy = Devarim = "The words"

The Old Covenant is contained within Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.
Not including Genesis?
 
Dec 24, 2023
52
20
8
Jesus fulfilled the Torah by spending his ministry teaching how to correctly obey it as it should by by word and by example. In Titus 2:14, Christ gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah is the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20), or in other words, the freedom that we have in Christ is the freedom from doing the things that God has revealed to be sin through the cross.
This reminds and inspires me to be zealous for doing good works. [Brainstorming ideas about that:....] to be generous and sacrificial with those weaker than me (in any sense - physical, social, ..), counting others as more worthy than myself. to be zealous, wow, that's a big word, not just to do it, but to have a strong emotional drive, akin to when deep rage drives a person's actions, here it is not rage but zeal, but an equally intense feeling which expresses into strong action. the action is to love the weak, love my enemy. who is my enemy, I don't feel I have many enemies - who would I hate for oppressing me, if I were to be filled with hate? - I guess that is my enemy. those with the power to make/enforce better laws and choose not to, maybe from spite or cowardice or prioritisation of their own pleasure (comfort, fun with their family, financial stability, ...) and as a result the things I love (or things which I and those I love could benefit from) are taken, destroyed, degraded. say they are socially powerful people, the few, how can I love them when I never encounter them, when they will never know who I am? I suppose I can show them love by continuing to work hard to maintain the wealth and stability of society which they benefit from, so they can continue to have comfort, fun with their family, and financial stability. I can do it for them, loving them, when we love someone we don't need their recognition or thanks, I don't need them to know I helped them, I just want them to be all right.

If you've redd the above, you've been on a real-time journey with me over the last few minutes, this was my honest exploration and was a blessing to me. I don't feel the exploration is finished but it paused here for now.

I hope this is considered on-topic. I was focussing on how to fulfil the torah.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,491
13,798
113
This reminds and inspires me to be zealous for doing good works. [Brainstorming ideas about that:....] to be generous and sacrificial with those weaker than me (in any sense - physical, social, ..), counting others as more worthy than myself. to be zealous, wow, that's a big word, not just to do it, but to have a strong emotional drive, akin to when deep rage drives a person's actions, here it is not rage but zeal, but an equally intense feeling which expresses into strong action. the action is to love the weak, love my enemy. who is my enemy, I don't feel I have many enemies - who would I hate for oppressing me, if I were to be filled with hate? - I guess that is my enemy. those with the power to make/enforce better laws and choose not to, maybe from spite or cowardice or prioritisation of their own pleasure (comfort, fun with their family, financial stability, ...) and as a result the things I love (or things which I and those I love could benefit from) are taken, destroyed, degraded. say they are socially powerful people, the few, how can I love them when I never encounter them, when they will never know who I am? I suppose I can show them love by continuing to work hard to maintain the wealth and stability of society which they benefit from, so they can continue to have comfort, fun with their family, and financial stability. I can do it for them, loving them, when we love someone we don't need their recognition or thanks, I don't need them to know I helped them, I just want them to be all right.

If you've redd the above, you've been on a real-time journey with me over the last few minutes, this was my honest exploration and was a blessing to me. I don't feel the exploration is finished but it paused here for now.

I hope this is considered on-topic. I was focussing on how to fulfil the torah.
It sounds like you have grasped the crucial distinction between “fulfill” and “obey” and have chosen correctly which to do.
 

vassal

Well-known member
Jan 20, 2024
705
321
63
Indeed, Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-19 that he came not to abolish the Torah and warned against relaxing the least part of it, and in Romans 3:31, our faith does not abolish our need to obey the Torah, but rather our faith uphold it.
Hello Soyeong,

I would just like to know about the mosaic law. Since Christ fulfilled the law of Moses, commandments and confirmed (fulfilled) the prophecy about his birth and death, How can anyone follow the laws regarding sacrifices, temple etc... all these other Mosaic laws that cannot be followed today. Have the Jewish peoples replaced these Laws that cannot be followed by other similar laws as a replacement? I do not ask to judge in any way, just trying to understand.

Hypothesis: If the temple was rebuild, would the messianic Jewish community resume the sacrifices of Old? Would for instance animal sacrifices be replaced by other types of sacrifice or burnt offerings?

In my opinion, since Christ was the ultimate and last sacrifice in the full payment for sin of all who believe in him and do his Father's will, how could it be possible to reconcile offering sacrifices since Jesus saved us all by his sacrifice for us?

Thank you and Peace to you.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,067
4,349
113
I laugh when I see things like this.

  1. All have sinned and fallen short; therefore, death is what we all deserve.
  2. Jesus is the only way to salvation you can't get saved and then put Jesus on the shelf and follow the law when you broke it already.
  3. Jesus took your punishment for you. If you return back to the law, you then return the judgment of it :)
  4. You can fool man with the outward appearance of obeying the law, BUT YOUR Heart God knows therefore, you may never do the act of adultery, but you can have a heart full of it. You may never commit murder but have a heart full of hate. You are a murderer. Jesus said Good luck with the law. FYI, far better people than I who saw God could not do it.
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
3,218
1,614
113
Midwest
op: The Torah is still binding & we MUST obey it?

"What Saith The Scripture?":

A) knowing "the purpose" of the law:

"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man,​
but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for​
sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and​
murderers of mothers, for manslayers" (1 Timothy 1:9)​

B) knowing why it "is still binding" for the unrighteous man (who will
Never 'obey it' all, Christ Being The Only "Perfect Obeyer" of law):​
"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto​
Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith
is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.” ‭​
‭(Galatians‬ ‭3:24 ‭AV‬)‬​
C) knowing what happens to "those who insist they are 'of the law,' and
think they are obeying all of it for their salvation"?:​

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it​
is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which​
are written in the book of the law to do them." (Galatians 3:10 AV)​

D) knowing .... The Final Judgment .... of those who think they are obeying,
and calling The Righteous Judge "Lord, Lord" and Also boasting of ↑ ↑ ↑?:​

"Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the​
kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth The Will of My Father Which​
is in heaven.​
Many will say to Me In That Day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied​
in Thy Name? and in Thy Name have cast out devils? and in Thy​
Name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto​
them, I Never Knew you: Depart from Me, ye that work iniquity. "​
(Matthew 7:21-23 AV)​
Conclusion1: Yes, the law is "still binding" for the unrighteous, and:

For any and all "who are of the law, and still under it's curse," who read God's
Word For you today, and, who wish Eternal Life, see God's Simple Will!

For those who are Under Grace, with "Freedom And Liberty" to serve God:

E) our position, as "righteous in The Body Of Christ":

"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are
not under the law, but under Grace." (Romans 6:14 AV)​
"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law,​
but under Grace? God forbid." (Romans 6:15 AV)​

--------------------
Conclusion2:

"Christ Hath Redeemed us from the curse of the law,​
being made a curse for us: for It Is Written, Cursed is​
every one that hangeth on a tree" (Galatians 3:13 AV)​

We, the BLOOD-Washed righteous, should all "obey the New Law":

"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works?​
Nay: but by The Law of faith." (Romans 3:27 AV):​
+
"For By Grace are ye Saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:​
it is The Gift Of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.​
For we are His Workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,​
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."​
(Ephesians 2:8-10; All commands in Romans - Philemon AV)​

"Simplicity In Christ" For the obedience of the new-born babe?:

►► The New law of faith which worketh By love ◄◄

All believers Should do "good works" {Which will Never
Equal CHRIST's Payment For the Penalty of sin!},
for Which we Are Created In CHRIST JESUS, to perform
for Him, having "been Called into fellowship With Him!"
(
Ephesians 2:10; 1 Corinthians 1:9) Amen?:

We "work out our own salvation" (Philippians 2:12). This
Should Be a lifetime of Daily submission, and renewing,
being "not conformed to this world" (Romans 12:1-2),
for Grace Deliverance From the power of sin!}
(2 Corinthians 1:10b) = personal sanctification:

How we, righteous, who have obeyed The Gospel of The Grace
of God, although 'not under the law,' "Fulfil All the law", by Grace,
With Christ Living In
us:

In "One Word: Love thy neighbor as thyself!"​
His Spirit Guiding and Teaching us, for God's Approval, How To:

View attachment 261261

Example
Precious friends, my apologies - I overlooked this crucial point:

"Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression." (Romans 4:15 AV)​
Changing none of the Grace and "faith which worketh By love"
conclusions above.

Amen.
 

jamessb

Active member
Feb 10, 2024
738
122
43
Santa Fe NM
I agree with this, dear, in that Jesus said "I have not come to abolish the Torah". That is why we must love, including love our enemies, love our neighbour as ourself, and lay down our lives for each other, because love is the fulfillment of the Torah.
Do you know why Jesus said that he didn't come to abolish the Torah? Because it is still in effect for those under the OT law. If a person is a Christian, born of the Spirit, they are no longer under the OT law.
 

jamessb

Active member
Feb 10, 2024
738
122
43
Santa Fe NM
Amen, we should observe the Torah as taught by Jesus. Stoning to death is not exactly mercy , and I know it is not a display of love for the enemy.

We must all learn all Jesus Yeshua has taught on the law, not just dwell upon those laws which are not held in His teaching, above all no stoning!!!
You are either under the law or you are under grace. You either are governed by the external law or internally by the Holy Spirit. It's either/or.
 

jamessb

Active member
Feb 10, 2024
738
122
43
Santa Fe NM
I laugh when I see things like this.

  1. All have sinned and fallen short; therefore, death is what we all deserve.
  2. Jesus is the only way to salvation you can't get saved and then put Jesus on the shelf and follow the law when you broke it already.
  3. Jesus took your punishment for you. If you return back to the law, you then return the judgment of it :)
  4. You can fool man with the outward appearance of obeying the law, BUT YOUR Heart God knows therefore, you may never do the act of adultery, but you can have a heart full of it. You may never commit murder but have a heart full of hate. You are a murderer. Jesus said Good luck with the law. FYI, far better people than I who saw God could not do it.
WHY is that even remotely funny???