Is Believing/Behaving Correctly a Work/Debt

[Stan_the_Man]

The question is how does someone obtain faith.

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Romans 1:19-21
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

Yes..and calling out for salvation is not a work, but a response to conviction on the soul.

Actually, believing is a work all are called to but sadly few find.

Responding to the Gospel by calling out to the Lord, believing His promises for salvation is something we do... of course the Lord give us the revelation to open our eyes but we have to make the decision to call upon the Lord once we believe we need to be saved

John 6:28,29
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Matthew 7:16-21
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 15:2
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Romans 2:6-11
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Peter 1:14-17
As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Psalms 62:12
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou give to every man according to his work.

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 1:21,22
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness (walking after the flesh – see Gal 6:7,8), and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

 

[rogerg]

Actually, believing is a work all are called to but sadly few find.

Yes, that we believe is a work, but it is God's work not ours.

[Jhn 6:28-29 KJV]
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Natural (unsaved) man cannot believe. To believe, one must first be saved by God:

[1Co 2:14 KJV]
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[rogerg]

ohn 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The "all men" are those whom the Father gave to the Son. They cannot be other than, or apart from those.

[Jhn 6:37-39 KJV]
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

It says "the measure of faith", not "a measure of faith" - meaning that those whom God has saved they have been given by
Him the ability to measure and assess faith: Christ's faith, in that His faith brought forth salvation.

Measure:

metron (Key)

1. measure, an instrument for measuring
   1. a vessel for receiving and determining the quantity of things, whether dry or liquid
   2. a graduated staff for measuring, a measuring rod
   3. proverbially, the rule or standard of judgment
2. determined extent, portion measured off, measure or limit
   1. the required measure, the due, fit, measure

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Romans 1:19-21
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

It was superficial intellectual knowledge not from within their spirit.

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[Jhn 12:39-40 KJV]
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The "us-ward" are the elect - they are the ones whom he is addressing. Their faith came not of/from themselves,
but "through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ".

[2Pe 1:1 KJV]
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

The "beloved" are those whom God had elected to salvation, which does not include everyone.

[2Pe 3:8-9 KJV]
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[rogerg]

Yes..and calling out for salvation is not a work, but a response to conviction on the soul.

Just so I understand, which specific verse do you have in mind?

 

[rogerg]

God is trustworthy, therefore the Mosaic Law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by obediently trusting His law and it is contradictory to think that we should trust God for salvation, but not in what He has instructed, and to interpret Galatians 3:10 as referring to God's instructions as being untrustworthy/not of faith rather than works of the law is to deny the trustworthiness/faithfulness of God. In other words, the Mosaic Law is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so it is contradictory to think that we should trust in God's word made flesh, but not in God's word.

Rather than continually going back and forth, allow me to demonstrate what the Bible says about following the Mosaic Law for salvation, or any law for that matter.
I know I've included a lot of verses but the pertain directly to our discussion. If you read them closely, you will see
that the Mosaic Law has been done away with in/by Christ. He alone became the new and eternal High Priest replacing
the High Priests of the Mosaic Law, and in replacing those High Priests, He also changed the law they were the administrators of.

[Heb 7:9-16, 18, 22-25, 27-28 KJV]
9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For [it is] evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. ...
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. ...
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. ...
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, [maketh] the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

Yes, that we believe is a work, but it is God's work not ours.

And yet God does not do it for us, we have to make the decision to agree with the Lord and believe.

God does not save anybody without their involvement in the process contrary to false calvinist teaching.

Like the example told many times - if a guy is drowning in a lake and a boat comes by to save the guy, they guy is not saving himself but if he does not cooperate with the recuses he will not be saved.

Mankind was created in God's Image so mankind does in fact have free will.

This is where many get confused since calvinists tell people man has no free will which is error.

[Jhn 6:28-29 KJV]
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

This is the work of God, that YOU believe on him whom he hath sent

Natural (unsaved) man cannot believe. To believe, one must first be saved by God:

Not true. God saved nobody by force. Man must cooperate with God to be saved. If God could do this without man's involvement than He would makes every person on earth get saved,

Man's only problem is the devil blinds the understanding of those who do not believe (2 Corinthians 4:4)

Once man's eyes are open he most certainly can believe and he must believe in order to be saved.

Man must make the decision to believe!

The "all men" are those whom the Father gave to the Son. They cannot be other than, or apart from those.

It's too bad some claim Jesus told a falsehood in John 12:32

Limited atonement is false doctrine

Romans 8:29,30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 5:1
Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children

Romans 1:19-21
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

The Father sovereignly decided to make man in His own Image which is why all men have free will. He said in His Word than we are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ (Romans 8:29), and we are to be followers of God as dear children (Ephesians 5:1)

God's Word says man is without excuse (Romans 1:20), the grace that brings salvation has come upon all men (Titus 2:11-13)

God's Word says it's not God's will that any perish and He wants all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), and He has commanded men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), and has given every man faith (Romans 12:3)

Jesus said if He be lifted up He would draw all men until Himself (John 12:32), and Jesus has tasted of death for every man (Hebrews 2:9)

In light of all these scriptures, we can say for sure that limited atonement taught by John Calvin is false doctrine and is in opposition to what God says.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

It says "the measure of faith", not "a measure of faith" - meaning that those whom God has saved they have been given by
Him the ability to measure and assess faith: Christ's faith, in that His faith brought forth salvation.

None the less, God has given ALL men faith and ALL men are without excuse (Romans 1:19-21)

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

That does not cancel the other places in scripture where the Lord says it's His will that ALL be saved.

He has provided a pathway for ALL to be saved and He is not preventing some from getting saved because theya re not elect as the false god of calvinism claims

It was superficial intellectual knowledge not from within their spirit.

That's just your opinion and not what the scripture actually says

The "us-ward" are the elect

Fake calvinist teaching. Thanks for sharing your personal opinions.

The "beloved" are those whom God had elected to salvation, which does not include everyone.

How do YOU know you are one of the ones the Lord decided to not save?

Calvinists don't really know if they are saved or not until they die and only then they find out if they go north or south

 

[SomeDisciple]

Worth dying for?

Revelation 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven, saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, who die in the Lord. From henceforth now, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; for their works follow them.

I would say that it is specifically not a debt: because salvation is a gift that cannot be earned... though we may "feel indebted", there is no longer any debt; only reasonable service from a changed heart. But yes, it's worth dying for- and moreover worth suffering for when necessary.

 

[rogerg]

None the less, God has given ALL men faith and ALL men are without excuse (Romans 1:19-21)

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Where did you find the receiving of faith mentioned in Acts 17:30?

But in Acts 13:48 we read that it only is given to those who had been ordained to eternal life:

[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

And in Gal 2:16, we read that true faith is only imputed by Christ to those whom He justifies (saves)

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Like the example told many times - if a guy is drowning in a lake and a boat comes by to save the guy, they guy is not saving himself but if he does not cooperate with the recuses he will not be saved.

But that's an incorrect example. According to the Bible, the man isn't drowning, he's drowned and he's dead. A dead man cannot contribute to the saving of himself. In the spiritual sense, before being saved, we were all spiritually dead in sin and completely at the
mercy of Christ to give us spiritual life. A spiritually dead person cannot give themselves spiritual life any more than
a physically dead person can give themselves physical life Please observe the following verses:

[Eph 2:1 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[Col 2:13 KJV]
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

This is the work of God, that YOU believe on him whom he hath sent

Don't understand your reply. Yes, God gives belief to someone who otherwise would not be able to have it; that is, we cannot
give it to ourselves but it only comes as a gift from God.

It's too bad some claim Jesus told a falsehood in John 12:32

[Jhn 6:44-45 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


Okay, at this point I do not think that we will convince each other so no need to continue this discussion further.

 

[Blade]

Humor.. maybe not but song come to mind "I believe I can fly". I guess I could say I am still "working" on that haha pfft.

Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith.

 

[rogerg]

Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith.

That "a man" above is a representation of Christ, not just anyone.

Christ alone demonstrated His faith by His works in a way that was both measurable and successful - in that He (and it)
brought forth salvation. No one besides Christ had the ability make it known. Were it not Christ in view in that verse, then James would
have also been obliged to explain in complete detail how much faith, how frequently it was executed, and what was it executed for, otherwise, as stated, it is devoid of useful, employable, information, and therefore, meaningless to those who would desire
to mimic it.

 

[rogerg]

Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith.

So, what I should have included in my prior reply is that God through James is informing us that should we believe that we can self-generate our own faith, then it had better have works with it that are the equal of Christ's works, which, of course, no man could achieve. If we are unable to do so (which no man can), then that faith would be a dead faith, by which, salvation becomes impossible to achieve.
Instead, when Christ saves someone, both His faith and His works (and actually His righteousness too), are imputed to them. We contribute nothing to our salvation - it is solely, in its fullness, a gift from an exceedingly merciful and gracious God.

 

[Soyeong]

Rather than continually going back and forth, allow me to demonstrate what the Bible says about following the Mosaic Law for salvation, or any law for that matter.
I know I've included a lot of verses but the pertain directly to our discussion. If you read them closely, you will see
that the Mosaic Law has been done away with in/by Christ. He alone became the new and eternal High Priest replacing
the High Priests of the Mosaic Law, and in replacing those High Priests, He also changed the law they were the administrators of.

[Heb 7:9-16, 18, 22-25, 27-28 KJV]
9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For [it is] evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. ...
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. ...
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. ...
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, [maketh] the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

If that is your interpretation of those verses, then I see three main options:

#1) You can think that it is absurd to interpret a servant of God as promoting rebellion against God's word and conclude that you must have misunderstood those verses.

#2) You can think that it is absurd to interpret a servant of God as promoting rebellion against God's word and conclude that those verses must have been written by an enemy of God.

#3) You can think that it makes perfect sense to interpret a servant of God as promoting rebellion against Him and conclude that it is a good idea for you to also promote rebellion against God.

In Deuteronomy 13:1-5, the way that God instructed His children to determine that someone was a false prophet who was not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying the Mosaic Law, so God did not leave His people any room to go with option #3. Option #2 is not acceptable for those who uphold the truth of the Bible, but the bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man and we should be quicker to disregard everything that any man has said than to disregard anything that God has commanded, so #2 is still better than #3. That leaves #1 as the best option.

 

[rogerg]

If that is your interpretation of those verses, then I see there main options:

#1) You can think that it is absurd to interpret a servant of God as promoting rebellion against God's word and conclude that you must have misunderstood those verses.

#2) You can think that it is absurd to interpret a servant of God as promoting rebellion against God's word and conclude that those verses must have been written by an enemy of God.

#3) You can think that it makes perfect sense to interpret a servant of God as promoting rebellion against Him and conclude that it is a good idea for you to also promote rebellion against God.

In Deuteronomy 13:1-5, the way that God instructed His children to determine that someone was a false prophet who was not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying the Mosaic Law, so God did not leave His people any room to go with option #3. Option #2 is not acceptable for those who uphold the truth of the Bible, but the bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man and we should be quicker to disregard everything that any man has said than to disregard anything that God has commanded, so #2 is still better than #3. That leaves #1 as the best option.

Sorry, once again, I don't follow what you're saying. The verses I posted clearly demonstrate that the Mosaic Law was superseded by Christ, through God's mercy and grace. God's commandment now is for us to trust in Christ as Saviour (which no one can do unless it is given them). Anything that occurred before, or apart from that, was made null and void.

[Heb 10:29 KJV] 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[MerSee]

I would say that it is specifically not a debt: because salvation is a gift that cannot be earned... though we may "feel indebted", there is no longer any debt; only reasonable service from a changed heart. But yes, it's worth dying for- and moreover worth suffering for when necessary.

Someone who is paying their debt to God is freely giving of themselves.

 

[SomeDisciple]

Someone who is paying their debt to God is freely giving of themselves.

Someone who gives freely of themselves fulfills a concurrent obligation; in that sense, yes. This is God's work in us, rather than us working to rectify a penal-debt to him.

And whether you mean dying to sin, or physically dying; the answer is the same... either way the alternative is "living" in error... which is the same as dying.

 

[Soyeong]

Sorry, once again, I don't follow what you're saying. The verses I posted clearly demonstrate that the Mosaic Law was superseded by Christ, through God's mercy and grace. God's commandment now is for us to trust in Christ as Saviour (which no one can do unless it is given them). Anything that occurred before, or apart from that, was made null and void.

[Heb 10:29 KJV] 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

I think that you should have major problems with how you are interpreting those verses as speaking against obeying what God has commanded, but even if your interpretation were correct, then according to God's word in Deuteronomy 13:1-5, you should consider the author of Hebrews to be a false prophet who was not speaking for God, so we should still obey what God has commanded regardless of whether or not your interpretation of those verses is correct. The bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so if it comes down to a choice between obeying the book of Hebrews or obeying what God has commanded, then we should obey what God has commanded.

it is contradictory to think that we should trust in God's word made flesh instead of trusting in God's word, but rather obediently trusting in God's word is the way to trust in God's word made flesh.

The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the character of God as it does to describe the character of God's law, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of God's law (Matthew 23:23), which is because it is God's instructions for how to live in a way that testifies about those aspects of His character. For example, our good works in obedience to God's law testify about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16). The only way to do away with God's eternal instructions for how to testify about His eternal goodness is by first doing away with God's eternal goodness. Likewise, in 1 Peter 1:16, we are told be be holy for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to do that, so following those instructions is the way to testify about God's holiness and the only way to do away with those eternal instructions is by first doing away with God's eternal holiness. God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore any instructions that He has ever given for how to testify about His righteousness are eternally valid regardless of which covenant we are under (Psalms 119:160), and if those instructions were to ever change, then God's righteousness would not be eternal.

The New Covenant is still made with the same God with the same eternal character and therefore the same eternal law for how to testify about His eternal character (Jeremiah 31:33). If the New Covenant involved following a different set of laws, then it would involve following a different God with a different set of character traits than those of the God of Israel. So Hebrews 7:12 could not be referring to a change of the law in regard to its content, such as with it becoming in accordance with God's righteousness to commit murder or sinful to help the poor, but rather the context is referring to a change of the priesthood, which would require a change of the law in regard to its administration.

 

[Soyeong]

Sorry, once again, I don't follow what you're saying. The verses I posted clearly demonstrate that the Mosaic Law was superseded by Christ, through God's mercy and grace. God's commandment now is for us to trust in Christ as Saviour (which no one can do unless it is given them). Anything that occurred before, or apart from that, was made null and void.

[Heb 10:29 KJV] 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

If someone understands a verse as saying something absurd, such as interpreting Psalms 14:1 as denying the existence of God, then they should have the self-awareness to recognize that they must have misunderstood it or that if they have correctly understood it that they should reject the truth of that verse, but they should not think that it would be a good idea them to try to use that verse to promote the position that there is no God.

 

[rogerg]

If someone understands a verse as saying something absurd, such as interpreting Psalms 14:1 as denying the existence of God, then they should have the self-awareness to recognize that they must have misunderstood it or that if they have correctly understood it that they should reject the truth of that verse, but they should not think that it would be a good idea them to try to use that verse to promote the position that there is no God.

Regarding the book of Hebrews, I am under no misunderstanding (if that's your point). Instead, I think you just refuse to accept what was written there - that through Jesus Christ, regarding salvation, for those whom He has chosen to salvation, for them law has been abolished - they are no longer under it but under grace.
Do you not believe that Jesus is come and that He is both God and Saviour - that only through and by Him are we saved and not by any of our actions?

[Rom 8:1-2 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

[Rom 10:4 KJV] 4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

[Heb 7:12-14 KJV]
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For [it is] evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.