The false claim that the Bible is the sole source of authority ...

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dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
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Like...call NO MAN FATHER??

Like TOP DOWN AUTHORITY structure of priests??

Unbiblical and against biblical doctrine.
Just to address that "Father" part....


"So it was not you who sent me here, but God; and he has made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house and ruler over all the land of Egypt" (Gen. 45:8).

"I was a father to the poor, and I searched out the cause of him whom I did not know" (Job 29:16)

"In that day I will call my servant Eliakim, the son of Hilkiah . . . and I will clothe him with [a] robe, and will bind [a] girdle on him, and will commit . . . authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah" (Is. 22:20–21).

"Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!” And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his garment and tore it in two." (2 Kings 2:12)

" To this he replied: “Brothers and fathers, listen to me! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham while he was still in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Harran." (Acts 7:2)

"Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac." (Romans 9:10)

"I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).


"I am writing to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.
I am writing to you, young men,
because you have overcome the evil one.
I write to you, dear children,
because you know the Father.
I write to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young men,
because you are strong,
and the word of God lives in you,
and you have overcome the evil one." (1 John 2:13–14)


That's just a few specific examples of people referred to as "father" in the Scriptures. I guess St. Stephen the Protomartyr, St. Paul, St. John the Evangelist, Job, and St. Elisha should be condemned for their unbiblical act of calling someone "father".

Not only that, if we look at instances where people refer to others as children and assume the title of father, well then I guess St. Peter is out, and St. Paul and St. John still haven't learned their lesson either!

"Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ" (1 Cor. 4:17); "To Timothy, my true child in the faith: grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord" (1 Tim. 1:2); "To Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord" (2 Tim. 1:2).

"This charge I commit to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophetic utterances which pointed to you, that inspired by them you may wage the good warfare" (1 Tim 1:18); "You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus" (2 Tim. 2:1); "But Timothy’s worth you know, how as a son with a father he has served with me in the gospel" (Phil. 2:22).

"To Titus, my true child in a common faith: grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior" (Titus 1:4); "I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment" (Philem. 10).


"She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings; and so does my son Mark" (1 Pet. 5:13).

"Here for the third time I am ready to come to you. And I will not be a burden, for I seek not what is yours but you; for children ought not to lay up for their parents, but parents for their children" (2 Cor. 12:14); and, "My little children, with whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you!" (Gal. 4:19).

"My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" (1 John 2:1); "No greater joy can I have than this, to hear that my children follow the truth" (3 John 4).

So we can assume then by your interpretation, that all these men from the Scriptures are doomed because they either called people "father" or referred to themselves as such. OR, we could understand that Our Lord was speaking in hyperbole as He was known to do from time to time. Pointing out the hypocrisy of the Pharisees claiming the title of father without acknowledging that all fatherhood originates from the Father in Heaven.

Catholics and Orthodox Christians follow the examples set down in Scripture by the Apostles. Priests become the spiritual fathers of their parishes, helping us grow closer to Christ and always acknowledging that their spiritual fatherhood to us only is because it comes through God's authority.
 
K

kujo313

Guest
I did that. Turns out by the best research I could find, he taught the same gospel that Catholic Church teaches today.
WHERE in Paul's writings does he say about Mary? Sounds to me as if Paul was "intolerant". Did Paul teach anything about Mary?

IF there was ANY such writings, don't you think that it would be IMPORTANT to the Salvation of mankind and a key to get to Heaven, or to Jesus, that it would've made it in to the Bible? Uh, no.

One theme: being one with God as if the "fall" never happened. God made a way. One Way.
Jesus said that we can get to God but only through Him.

Mankind added onto that. As in the Tower of Babel, it's just wrong.

So, no, Paul did NOT teach what the RCC teaches today.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Hi,
I have a few things to add.

1. At the end of the Gospel of John, it says "there are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be desribed individually, I do not thing the whole world would contain the books the would be written" Jn 21:25. This is proven in acts when Paul says "In every way I have shown you that by hard work of that sort we must help the weak and keep in mind the words of the Lord Jesus who himselself said 'It is more blessed to give than to recieve'" Where is that in the Gospels?
If you notice. It says things Jesus DID. Not thinks he taught. God let us know everything he wanted us to know. Would it really help us if we saw more of what Jesus did believe in him? there is ample evidence Jesus did what the OT said he would do. We should not use this verse to say it is ok to add tradition or words to the scripture. Doing something and saying something are two completely different things.

2. For people who are so agianst tradition, protestants still live by many traditions. E.g Where in the Bible does it say to celibrate the sabbath on Sunday? Where does it say to celebrate Christamas on December 25?
Actually Scripture tells us the Church met on the first day of the week (Sunday) so this is a tradition which was confirmed by scripture. As for Christmas. This was a pagan Holiday. Chrismas even still uses pagan symbols (such as the tree) to celebrate this traiditon. It is also celebrated by everyone prety much (even athiests) It has no salvic value, and again would be a week argument for adding things like the "mass" "penance" "purgatory" and other "pagan rituals" which were transfered to Christianity.

P.s. This is my very fist post so please bare with me.
welcome to the site :)
 
N

NitzWalsh

Guest
How, when, and where did the Apostles die? Scripture does not say. Holy tradition (oral) does say.
Is it unimportant simply because it is not in Scripture? That's a false assumption!
Why would it matter when or even how the apostles died? Does that have anything at all to do with your faith? You seem to like deflecting questions away and not properly answering them, why is that?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Why would it matter when or even how the apostles died? Does that have anything at all to do with your faith? You seem to like deflecting questions away and not properly answering them, why is that?
It is called twisting true to make it appear your right, or excuse your false beliefs.

Paul dealt with this. Like he said to timothy, those in the church who were leaders of that church used myths and endless genealogies to get people to think they must be from God, and they are right and everyone else is wrong.

Sound familiar?
 
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NitzWalsh

Guest
It is called twisting true to make it appear your right, or excuse your false beliefs.

Paul dealt with this. Like he said to timothy, those in the church who were leaders of that church used myths and endless genealogies to get people to think they must be from God, and they are right and everyone else is wrong.

Sound familiar?
Sounds like the catholic church claim of apostolic succession.
 
Aug 12, 2010
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~~SNIPPED all the OT stuff thats got nothing to do with Christian doctrine.~~

" To this he replied: “Brothers and fathers, listen to me! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham while he was still in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Harran." (Acts 7:2)
No mention of calling any man a spiritual father. Stephen is addressing the Sanhedrin. He is being respectful to the group by offering a typical Hebraic salutation.

If he was addressing someone individually father you might have a point.

The reference to Abraham is obviously to a FLESH father. Doesnt count.

"Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac." (Romans 9:10)
Another reference to a flesh father.

"I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).
Ya so he's putting across the point that he has a paternal relationship with them. Great. I think of many people as fatherly but still, no-one is ADDRESSING anyone with the title....Father.

"I am writing to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.
I am writing to you, young men,
because you have overcome the evil one.
I write to you, dear children,
because you know the Father.
I write to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young men,
because you are strong,
and the word of God lives in you,
and you have overcome the evil one." (1 John 2:13–14)
Again addressing flesh fathers. The older men...and also as a group. First he talks to the little children (verse 12) then he talks to the fathers. Again, no individuals have the title Father.

That's just a few specific examples of people referred to as "father" in the Scriptures. I guess St. Stephen the Protomartyr, St. Paul, St. John the Evangelist, Job, and St. Elisha should be condemned for their unbiblical act of calling someone "father".
They called no man Father.

Not only that, if we look at instances where people refer to others as children and assume the title of father, well then I guess St. Peter is out, and St. Paul and St. John still haven't learned their lesson either!
No one assumed the title Father. If they did, we would see them addressed individually as Father. They are not. Coz Christ said not to do that.

"Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ" (1 Cor. 4:17); "To Timothy, my true child in the faith: grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord" (1 Tim. 1:2); "To Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord" (2 Tim. 1:2).

"This charge I commit to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophetic utterances which pointed to you, that inspired by them you may wage the good warfare" (1 Tim 1:18); "You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus" (2 Tim. 2:1); "But Timothy’s worth you know, how as a son with a father he has served with me in the gospel" (Phil. 2:22).

"To Titus, my true child in a common faith: grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior" (Titus 1:4); "I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment" (Philem. 10).


"She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings; and so does my son Mark" (1 Pet. 5:13).

"Here for the third time I am ready to come to you. And I will not be a burden, for I seek not what is yours but you; for children ought not to lay up for their parents, but parents for their children" (2 Cor. 12:14); and, "My little children, with whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you!" (Gal. 4:19).

"My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" (1 John 2:1); "No greater joy can I have than this, to hear that my children follow the truth" (3 John 4).
Yup...we still dont see anyone being addressed or have the title of Father.

So we can assume then by your interpretation, that all these men from the Scriptures are doomed because they either called people "father" or referred to themselves as such. OR, we could understand that Our Lord was speaking in hyperbole as He was known to do from time to time. Pointing out the hypocrisy of the Pharisees claiming the title of father without acknowledging that all fatherhood originates from the Father in Heaven.
We can assume that our Lord meant exactly what He said. Call none Father but your Father in heaven, which in the context obviously meant call none your spirtual Father. And no-one ever does in the NT. I know you really want it to...but its not their. Addressing your shepards as Father is unbilical.

Catholics and Orthodox Christians follow the examples set down in Scripture by the Apostles. Priests become the spiritual fathers of their parishes, helping us grow closer to Christ and always acknowledging that their spiritual fatherhood to us only is because it comes through God's authority.
You can regard them as spiritual Fathers all you want, but your not allowed to CALL them Father. Thats against Jesus commands. Quite simply because He didnt want a hierarchy, He didnt want authority in the Church and He didnt want PUFFED UP priests.
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
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Your very own post shows how you're mistaken. You have no issue with people being called father if it's "a typical Hebraic salutation" or if they're "fleshly fathers" and yet I fail to see from the verse you are trying to use where any exceptions are made. Apparently "Call no man father" means "it's okay to call men fathers unless they're Catholics because Catholics are bad."
 
Aug 12, 2010
2,819
12
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Your very own post shows how you're mistaken. You have no issue with people being called father if it's "a typical Hebraic salutation" or if they're "fleshly fathers" and yet I fail to see from the verse you are trying to use where any exceptions are made. Apparently "Call no man father" means "it's okay to call men fathers unless they're Catholics because Catholics are bad."
You still havnt shown where any individual man in the NT was addressed as Father or had that specific title.
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
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You still havnt shown where any individual man in the NT was addressed as Father or had that specific title.
I don't need to. You're the one who's claiming that we can't call ANYONE Father yet you somehow find exceptions. So it's plainly obvious that you don't care really what the Scripture says except for the fact that you think you can use it to spread false witness about the Catholic interpretation.
 
Aug 12, 2010
2,819
12
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I don't need to. You're the one who's claiming that we can't call ANYONE Father yet you somehow find exceptions. So it's plainly obvious that you don't care really what the Scripture says except for the fact that you think you can use it to spread false witness about the Catholic interpretation.
Do you agree that Jesus wasnt talking about calling your ACTUAL father....Father?
 
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NitzWalsh

Guest
I don't need to. You're the one who's claiming that we can't call ANYONE Father yet you somehow find exceptions. So it's plainly obvious that you don't care really what the Scripture says except for the fact that you think you can use it to spread false witness about the Catholic interpretation.
I agree fully with strangelove, the reason he finds exceptions is because there are exceptions... It's taking Father as a title that is against biblical teachings.

If you talk about the US founding fathers, that's an exception because they gave birth to something, a nation.

If I call my dad father, that's an exception because he actually is my physical father.

If I call a man Father as a title though it goes against God's Word.
 
R

Rosewater

Guest
I agree fully with strangelove, the reason he finds exceptions is because there are exceptions... It's taking Father as a title that is against biblical teachings.

If you talk about the US founding fathers, that's an exception because they gave birth to something, a nation.

If I call my dad father, that's an exception because he actually is my physical father.

If I call a man Father as a title though it goes against God's Word.

You can't have it both ways. Jesus said call no man father. Either you take it literal or not.
 
R

Rosewater

Guest
I mean for the RCC to allow something that is so blatantly and seemingly out of line with something Jesus uttered, I have to believe they knew what they were doing. Like Paul going against all scripture when he decided for the group that gentiles would not be required to be circumcised.
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
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Do you agree that Jesus wasnt talking about calling your ACTUAL father....Father?
Well according to your interpretation of Scripture, apparently not.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
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I agree fully with strangelove, the reason he finds exceptions is because there are exceptions... It's taking Father as a title that is against biblical teachings.

If you talk about the US founding fathers, that's an exception because they gave birth to something, a nation.

If I call my dad father, that's an exception because he actually is my physical father.

If I call a man Father as a title though it goes against God's Word.
And yet i posted several examples of the Scriptures where the Apostles themselves refer to themselves as father figures and other men in the congregations as fathers. So by you logic, some of the Apostles themselves are going againts God's word.


Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
 
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NitzWalsh

Guest
And yet i posted several examples of the Scriptures where the Apostles themselves refer to themselves as father figures and other men in the congregations as fathers. So by you logic, some of the Apostles themselves are going againts God's word.


Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
Being a father figure is not the same as taking the title Father.
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
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Being a father figure is not the same as taking the title Father.
Again, I fail to see where there's room for any exceptions. Either NO ONE can be called Father, or else we should assume that Our Lord was speaking hyperbolic. Common sense indicates that He was using hyperbole to make a point. Sadly, it seems there's a lack of it here.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Sounds like the catholic church claim of apostolic succession.
Don't forget all the myths you hear from the church. All the sightings of mary, etc etc..