-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Still:
does satan have 7 heads?
is he red?
is he a dragon?
the entire Book is symbolic language. it is VISIONS.
~
let's see if Jesus taught a literal 1,000 years between his Second Advent and Judgment Day and Eternity (He never did):
first look at this from wiki:
Millennialism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is an overview of both Christian and non-Christian Millennialism. For specific variants, see
Premillennialism, Amillennialism, or Postmillenialism.Millennialism (from millennium, Latin for "thousand years"), or chiliasm in Greek, is a belief held by some Christian denominations that there will be a Golden Age or Paradise on Earth in which "Christ will reign" for 1000 years prior to the final judgment and future eternal state (the "World to Come" of the New Heavens and New Earth). This belief is derived primarily from the Book of Revelation 20:1-6. Millennialism as such is a specific form of Millenarianism.
Among Christians who hold this belief, this is not the "end of the world", but rather the penultimate age, the age just prior to the end of the world when the present heavens and earth will flee away (Rev. 21:1). Some believe that between the millennium proper and the end of the world there will be a brief period in which a final battle with Satan will take place. After this follows the Last Judgment.
Millennialism is also a doctrine of medieval Zoroastrianism concerning successive thousand-year periods, each of which will end in a cataclysm of heresy and destruction, until the final destruction of evil and of the spirit of evil by a triumphant king of peace at the end of the final millennial age (supposed by some to be the year 2000). "Then Saoshyant makes the creatures again pure, and the resurrection and future existence occur" (Zand-i Vohuman Yasht 3:62).
~
World to Come
Matthew 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Mark 10:30
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
in the world to come eternal life.
Matthew 13
36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear
any future 1,000 years, Still?
OR TWO WORLDS?
this world (now)
and the world to come (eternity)
~
any 1,000 years here?
does satan have 7 heads?
is he red?
is he a dragon?
the entire Book is symbolic language. it is VISIONS.
~
let's see if Jesus taught a literal 1,000 years between his Second Advent and Judgment Day and Eternity (He never did):
first look at this from wiki:
Millennialism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is an overview of both Christian and non-Christian Millennialism. For specific variants, see
Premillennialism, Amillennialism, or Postmillenialism.Millennialism (from millennium, Latin for "thousand years"), or chiliasm in Greek, is a belief held by some Christian denominations that there will be a Golden Age or Paradise on Earth in which "Christ will reign" for 1000 years prior to the final judgment and future eternal state (the "World to Come" of the New Heavens and New Earth). This belief is derived primarily from the Book of Revelation 20:1-6. Millennialism as such is a specific form of Millenarianism.
Among Christians who hold this belief, this is not the "end of the world", but rather the penultimate age, the age just prior to the end of the world when the present heavens and earth will flee away (Rev. 21:1). Some believe that between the millennium proper and the end of the world there will be a brief period in which a final battle with Satan will take place. After this follows the Last Judgment.
Millennialism is also a doctrine of medieval Zoroastrianism concerning successive thousand-year periods, each of which will end in a cataclysm of heresy and destruction, until the final destruction of evil and of the spirit of evil by a triumphant king of peace at the end of the final millennial age (supposed by some to be the year 2000). "Then Saoshyant makes the creatures again pure, and the resurrection and future existence occur" (Zand-i Vohuman Yasht 3:62).
~
World to Come
Matthew 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Mark 10:30
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
in the world to come eternal life.
Matthew 13
36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear
any future 1,000 years, Still?
OR TWO WORLDS?
this world (now)
and the world to come (eternity)
~
any 1,000 years here?
1
Still:
does satan have 7 heads?
is he red?
is he a dragon?
the entire Book is symbolic language. it is VISIONS.
~
let's see if Jesus taught a literal 1,000 years between his Second Advent and Judgment Day and Eternity (He never did):
first look at this from wiki:
Millennialism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is an overview of both Christian and non-Christian Millennialism. For specific variants, see
Premillennialism, Amillennialism, or Postmillenialism.Millennialism (from millennium, Latin for "thousand years"), or chiliasm in Greek, is a belief held by some Christian denominations that there will be a Golden Age or Paradise on Earth in which "Christ will reign" for 1000 years prior to the final judgment and future eternal state (the "World to Come" of the New Heavens and New Earth). This belief is derived primarily from the Book of Revelation 20:1-6. Millennialism as such is a specific form of Millenarianism.
Among Christians who hold this belief, this is not the "end of the world", but rather the penultimate age, the age just prior to the end of the world when the present heavens and earth will flee away (Rev. 21:1). Some believe that between the millennium proper and the end of the world there will be a brief period in which a final battle with Satan will take place. After this follows the Last Judgment.
Millennialism is also a doctrine of medieval Zoroastrianism concerning successive thousand-year periods, each of which will end in a cataclysm of heresy and destruction, until the final destruction of evil and of the spirit of evil by a triumphant king of peace at the end of the final millennial age (supposed by some to be the year 2000). "Then Saoshyant makes the creatures again pure, and the resurrection and future existence occur" (Zand-i Vohuman Yasht 3:62).
~
World to Come
Matthew 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Mark 10:30
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
in the world to come eternal life.
Matthew 13
36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear
any future 1,000 years, Still?
OR TWO WORLDS?
this world (now)
and the world to come (eternity)
~
any 1,000 years here?
does satan have 7 heads?
is he red?
is he a dragon?
the entire Book is symbolic language. it is VISIONS.
~
let's see if Jesus taught a literal 1,000 years between his Second Advent and Judgment Day and Eternity (He never did):
first look at this from wiki:
Millennialism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is an overview of both Christian and non-Christian Millennialism. For specific variants, see
Premillennialism, Amillennialism, or Postmillenialism.Millennialism (from millennium, Latin for "thousand years"), or chiliasm in Greek, is a belief held by some Christian denominations that there will be a Golden Age or Paradise on Earth in which "Christ will reign" for 1000 years prior to the final judgment and future eternal state (the "World to Come" of the New Heavens and New Earth). This belief is derived primarily from the Book of Revelation 20:1-6. Millennialism as such is a specific form of Millenarianism.
Among Christians who hold this belief, this is not the "end of the world", but rather the penultimate age, the age just prior to the end of the world when the present heavens and earth will flee away (Rev. 21:1). Some believe that between the millennium proper and the end of the world there will be a brief period in which a final battle with Satan will take place. After this follows the Last Judgment.
Millennialism is also a doctrine of medieval Zoroastrianism concerning successive thousand-year periods, each of which will end in a cataclysm of heresy and destruction, until the final destruction of evil and of the spirit of evil by a triumphant king of peace at the end of the final millennial age (supposed by some to be the year 2000). "Then Saoshyant makes the creatures again pure, and the resurrection and future existence occur" (Zand-i Vohuman Yasht 3:62).
~
World to Come
Matthew 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Mark 10:30
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
in the world to come eternal life.
Matthew 13
36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear
any future 1,000 years, Still?
OR TWO WORLDS?
this world (now)
and the world to come (eternity)
~
any 1,000 years here?
Or if it is symbolic in there, then does it remain symbolic when he's let out?
Lao i know it's not all symbolic, i know the events are real.
the language is the apocalyptic genre.
daniel saw visions as well: a giant metal-man.
the metal man symbolized something real.
this ridiculous stance that amillennialists have to face: "God is symblolic, also where Jesus was crucified is also symbolic"
come on Lao.
the language is the apocalyptic genre.
daniel saw visions as well: a giant metal-man.
the metal man symbolized something real.
this ridiculous stance that amillennialists have to face: "God is symblolic, also where Jesus was crucified is also symbolic"
come on Lao.
well, the Chapter 20 stuff is what the entire premise of futurism rests on.
if the 1,000 years is literal, it MUST be future (since it's been nearly 2000 already) - WHAT DOES JESUS SAY ABOUT A LITERAL 1,000 YEARS AFTER THE SECOND ADVENT?
~
satan bound is one issue. but it is THE issue ppl struggle with in Rev 20.
where else is it mentioned he is bound?
but look what Jesus told the Pharisees, in the very same passages He warned them about the unpardonable sin not being forgiven in this world OR THE WORLD TO COME (eternity):
Mark 3
20And the multitude cometh together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread. 21And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself. 22And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. 23And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? 24And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. 27No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
Matthew 12
22Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. 23And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? 24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. 31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
~
Jesus told them 3 critical things, things that dispensationalism has muddied:
1) And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you
Daniel 9 is fulfilled: Christ was King then, regardless of whether they rejected Him or not.
the Kingdom is NOT Postponed as Scofield says.
2) Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
the subject of that passage includes SATAN. that's who they are discussing.
Jesus is saying that in some way with His COMING satan was bound...FIRST ADVENT.
Jesus was casting a devil out of a POSSESSION of satan's.
3) And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Jesus only EVER discusses two worlds.
The Pharisees KNEW what He meant:
Judaism 101
• Judaism believes in an afterlife but has little dogma about it
• The Jewish afterlife is called Olam Ha-Ba (The World to Come)
• Resurrection and reincarnation are within the range of traditional Jewish belief
• Temporary (but not eternal) punishment after death is within traditional belief
Judaism 101: Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife
if the 1,000 years is literal, it MUST be future (since it's been nearly 2000 already) - WHAT DOES JESUS SAY ABOUT A LITERAL 1,000 YEARS AFTER THE SECOND ADVENT?
~
satan bound is one issue. but it is THE issue ppl struggle with in Rev 20.
where else is it mentioned he is bound?
but look what Jesus told the Pharisees, in the very same passages He warned them about the unpardonable sin not being forgiven in this world OR THE WORLD TO COME (eternity):
Mark 3
20And the multitude cometh together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread. 21And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself. 22And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. 23And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? 24And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. 27No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
Matthew 12
22Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. 23And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? 24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. 31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
~
Jesus told them 3 critical things, things that dispensationalism has muddied:
1) And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you
Daniel 9 is fulfilled: Christ was King then, regardless of whether they rejected Him or not.
the Kingdom is NOT Postponed as Scofield says.
2) Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
the subject of that passage includes SATAN. that's who they are discussing.
Jesus is saying that in some way with His COMING satan was bound...FIRST ADVENT.
Jesus was casting a devil out of a POSSESSION of satan's.
3) And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Jesus only EVER discusses two worlds.
The Pharisees KNEW what He meant:
Judaism 101
• Judaism believes in an afterlife but has little dogma about it
• The Jewish afterlife is called Olam Ha-Ba (The World to Come)
• Resurrection and reincarnation are within the range of traditional Jewish belief
• Temporary (but not eternal) punishment after death is within traditional belief
Judaism 101: Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife
Last edited:
Has Satan been bound?
Many people have their own ideas of what Rev. 20: 1-3 entails, as to the binding of Satan. What does it say elsewhere in the bible?
1 John 3: 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.
Satan's main works is falsehood and death, but Jesus came to testify to the truth (John 18:37; John 8:31-37). Jesus abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel (2 tim. 1:10). Jesus came, not only to destroy Satan's works, but to destroy Satan himself.
Hebrews 2: 14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death--that is, the devil--
Destroy does not necessarily mean annihilate. Throughout Jesus' ministry, he was limiting Satan's powers, by casting out demons.
Matthew 12: 28 But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 "Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.
Jesus defeated and bound Satan when he was resurrected from the cross.
Revelation 1: 17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades. 19 "Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.
At the time of John's revelation, Jesus already held the keys to death and Hades. These are the dominion of Satan. Satan would have to be bound in this case.
Prior to Christ's coming, the nations, with the exception of Israel, languished in darkness, being deceive by Satan's lies (Romans 1: 18-32).
The gospel truth is what dispels Satan's lies and brings light unto the world.
2 Timothy 1: 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
Through the great commission, (Mat. 28: 18-20), all the nations have been delivered from the captivity of the devil.
It is the truth of the gospel message of Jesus Christ that forges the chains that bind Satan, so that he can no longer deceive the nations.
Many people have their own ideas of what Rev. 20: 1-3 entails, as to the binding of Satan. What does it say elsewhere in the bible?
1 John 3: 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.
Satan's main works is falsehood and death, but Jesus came to testify to the truth (John 18:37; John 8:31-37). Jesus abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel (2 tim. 1:10). Jesus came, not only to destroy Satan's works, but to destroy Satan himself.
Hebrews 2: 14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death--that is, the devil--
Destroy does not necessarily mean annihilate. Throughout Jesus' ministry, he was limiting Satan's powers, by casting out demons.
Matthew 12: 28 But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 "Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.
Jesus defeated and bound Satan when he was resurrected from the cross.
Revelation 1: 17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades. 19 "Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.
At the time of John's revelation, Jesus already held the keys to death and Hades. These are the dominion of Satan. Satan would have to be bound in this case.
Prior to Christ's coming, the nations, with the exception of Israel, languished in darkness, being deceive by Satan's lies (Romans 1: 18-32).
The gospel truth is what dispels Satan's lies and brings light unto the world.
2 Timothy 1: 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
Through the great commission, (Mat. 28: 18-20), all the nations have been delivered from the captivity of the devil.
It is the truth of the gospel message of Jesus Christ that forges the chains that bind Satan, so that he can no longer deceive the nations.
Last edited:
good post SuperDave.
unfortunately, he has to be released during and for the APOSTASY.
by all accounts it looks like the APOSTASY is here.
take care Dave.
zone.
2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
~
listen to it if you get time Dave.
The Mystery of Contemplative Prayer
The Mystery of Contemplative Prayer - SermonAudio.com
unfortunately, he has to be released during and for the APOSTASY.
by all accounts it looks like the APOSTASY is here.
take care Dave.
zone.
2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
~
listen to it if you get time Dave.
The Mystery of Contemplative Prayer
The Mystery of Contemplative Prayer - SermonAudio.com
1
Another issue I have with futurists is the historical burden of proof they demand of our interpretation of Revelation.
Because we take the near/soon language literally as applying to its original hearers (Meaning everything up until the 1000 year reference is already fulfilled.) - often a futurist will demand that we find proof for EVERY event in Revelation that happened in history. They want you to open up a history book and show them where such and such happened. For example in Rev 16 it mentions everyone getting boils, or the sea filling with blood. They'll demand you find a place in some history book where that is documented.
Does the burden of proof rest upon the preterist? Or does it rest upon the futurist?
I argue it rests upon the futurist.
If we believe the Bible is THE WORD OF GOD, then the only evidence we need are the verses in Rev 1, that says to its first century audience 'near/soon/at hand'. To say that we need 100% proof of everything is placing the very word of God in question.
They don't demand the same for other events not documented outside the Bible. They don't demand evidence of Jesus walking on water. They don't demand historical evidence of Moses parting the Red Sea.
I think their inconsistent demand on Revelation shows the bias of their end times view.
They may even question the early dating of Revelation and say that invalidates our views. Ok, let's for the sake of debate say there is a late date to Revelation. That still wouldn't negate everything up to the 1000 year reference already being fulfilled. Because the near and soon language would still demand a fulfillment within a reasonably close time to the writing, not some fulfillment a 1000 or more years off.
Because we take the near/soon language literally as applying to its original hearers (Meaning everything up until the 1000 year reference is already fulfilled.) - often a futurist will demand that we find proof for EVERY event in Revelation that happened in history. They want you to open up a history book and show them where such and such happened. For example in Rev 16 it mentions everyone getting boils, or the sea filling with blood. They'll demand you find a place in some history book where that is documented.
Does the burden of proof rest upon the preterist? Or does it rest upon the futurist?
I argue it rests upon the futurist.
If we believe the Bible is THE WORD OF GOD, then the only evidence we need are the verses in Rev 1, that says to its first century audience 'near/soon/at hand'. To say that we need 100% proof of everything is placing the very word of God in question.
They don't demand the same for other events not documented outside the Bible. They don't demand evidence of Jesus walking on water. They don't demand historical evidence of Moses parting the Red Sea.
I think their inconsistent demand on Revelation shows the bias of their end times view.
They may even question the early dating of Revelation and say that invalidates our views. Ok, let's for the sake of debate say there is a late date to Revelation. That still wouldn't negate everything up to the 1000 year reference already being fulfilled. Because the near and soon language would still demand a fulfillment within a reasonably close time to the writing, not some fulfillment a 1000 or more years off.
E
Still:
does satan have 7 heads?
is he red?
is he a dragon?
the entire Book is symbolic language. it is VISIONS.
~
let's see if Jesus taught a literal 1,000 years between his Second Advent and Judgment Day and Eternity (He never did):
first look at this from wiki:
Millennialism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is an overview of both Christian and non-Christian Millennialism. For specific variants, see
Premillennialism, Amillennialism, or Postmillenialism.Millennialism (from millennium, Latin for "thousand years"), or chiliasm in Greek, is a belief held by some Christian denominations that there will be a Golden Age or Paradise on Earth in which "Christ will reign" for 1000 years prior to the final judgment and future eternal state (the "World to Come" of the New Heavens and New Earth). This belief is derived primarily from the Book of Revelation 20:1-6. Millennialism as such is a specific form of Millenarianism.
Among Christians who hold this belief, this is not the "end of the world", but rather the penultimate age, the age just prior to the end of the world when the present heavens and earth will flee away (Rev. 21:1). Some believe that between the millennium proper and the end of the world there will be a brief period in which a final battle with Satan will take place. After this follows the Last Judgment.
Millennialism is also a doctrine of medieval Zoroastrianism concerning successive thousand-year periods, each of which will end in a cataclysm of heresy and destruction, until the final destruction of evil and of the spirit of evil by a triumphant king of peace at the end of the final millennial age (supposed by some to be the year 2000). "Then Saoshyant makes the creatures again pure, and the resurrection and future existence occur" (Zand-i Vohuman Yasht 3:62).
~
World to Come
Matthew 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Mark 10:30
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
in the world to come eternal life.
Matthew 13
36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear
any future 1,000 years, Still?
OR TWO WORLDS?
this world (now)
and the world to come (eternity)
~
any 1,000 years here?
does satan have 7 heads?
is he red?
is he a dragon?
the entire Book is symbolic language. it is VISIONS.
~
let's see if Jesus taught a literal 1,000 years between his Second Advent and Judgment Day and Eternity (He never did):
first look at this from wiki:
Millennialism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is an overview of both Christian and non-Christian Millennialism. For specific variants, see
Premillennialism, Amillennialism, or Postmillenialism.Millennialism (from millennium, Latin for "thousand years"), or chiliasm in Greek, is a belief held by some Christian denominations that there will be a Golden Age or Paradise on Earth in which "Christ will reign" for 1000 years prior to the final judgment and future eternal state (the "World to Come" of the New Heavens and New Earth). This belief is derived primarily from the Book of Revelation 20:1-6. Millennialism as such is a specific form of Millenarianism.
Among Christians who hold this belief, this is not the "end of the world", but rather the penultimate age, the age just prior to the end of the world when the present heavens and earth will flee away (Rev. 21:1). Some believe that between the millennium proper and the end of the world there will be a brief period in which a final battle with Satan will take place. After this follows the Last Judgment.
Millennialism is also a doctrine of medieval Zoroastrianism concerning successive thousand-year periods, each of which will end in a cataclysm of heresy and destruction, until the final destruction of evil and of the spirit of evil by a triumphant king of peace at the end of the final millennial age (supposed by some to be the year 2000). "Then Saoshyant makes the creatures again pure, and the resurrection and future existence occur" (Zand-i Vohuman Yasht 3:62).
~
World to Come
Matthew 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Mark 10:30
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
in the world to come eternal life.
Matthew 13
36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear
any future 1,000 years, Still?
OR TWO WORLDS?
this world (now)
and the world to come (eternity)
~
any 1,000 years here?
The 1000 year reign is not a world to come. It is another aspect of human history on earth.
I have never seen so mutch twisting on what people believe than I have seen with amillenialsim and the stuff you post zone. It all sounds good on paper. But I don't know anyone who teaches what they say we do. It is odd to say the least.
E
But we would have to add to scripture to get this idea. Scripture does not say this is the only thing he is bound from. It says he is locked up. bound in the bottomless pit. Shut up. Not able to decieve the nations.
It does not say he is restrained from just starting the final battle. so why would we try to force this interpretation in the passage?
E
I will have to kindly disagree here as a friend.
If you say it has happened and we are in error. It is up to you to prove it. It is kinda hard for us to show proof when we say it has not happened yet. What proof would we give? Has 1.3 of the earth been destroyed. I can't find it. You say it happened. When?
See my point.
If you say it has happened and we are in error. It is up to you to prove it. It is kinda hard for us to show proof when we say it has not happened yet. What proof would we give? Has 1.3 of the earth been destroyed. I can't find it. You say it happened. When?
See my point.
I need an official ax grinding thread on this...
1. Why do people who demand an almost total literal interpretation, interpret near and soon in Revelation 1:3 as some kind of figurative code speak from Jesus? Why in one of the MOST non-symbolic parts of revelation do they drop their desire for a literal interpretation and demand it all the sudden become non-literal?
2. Why do futurists demand that there be an exact reference to every event in Revelation in an outside the bible history book? They don't do that with other parts of the Bible that aren't written about in some outside the Bible history book.
I somewhat loath myself for having an ax to grind.
1. Why do people who demand an almost total literal interpretation, interpret near and soon in Revelation 1:3 as some kind of figurative code speak from Jesus? Why in one of the MOST non-symbolic parts of revelation do they drop their desire for a literal interpretation and demand it all the sudden become non-literal?
2. Why do futurists demand that there be an exact reference to every event in Revelation in an outside the bible history book? They don't do that with other parts of the Bible that aren't written about in some outside the Bible history book.
I somewhat loath myself for having an ax to grind.
Revelation 1:3
Amplified Bible (AMP)
3Blessed (happy, [a]to be envied) is the man who reads aloud [in the assemblies] the word of this prophecy; and blessed (happy, [b]to be envied) are those who hear [it read] and who keep themselves true to the things which are written in it [heeding them and laying them to heart], for the time [for them to be fulfilled] is near.
I been wondering what happens when we don't care any more about them?
E
I look at it like this.
symbolic is used to show literal things.
ie stars from heaven destroying 1/3 of earth.
Star is symbolic. It is what John saw. I am sure John did not know about meteors, or nuclear war. so he used the language as he saw it and tried to explain it the best he can.
But the fact 1/3 earth is destroyed by something that came from the sky is a literal event.
symbolic is used to show literal things.
ie stars from heaven destroying 1/3 of earth.
Star is symbolic. It is what John saw. I am sure John did not know about meteors, or nuclear war. so he used the language as he saw it and tried to explain it the best he can.
But the fact 1/3 earth is destroyed by something that came from the sky is a literal event.
1
Yeah that's the part I'm really wrestling with too about her interpretation.
I mean we look out at reality and it's hard to imagine Satan is bound with NO influence. Yet it's hard to read that text and think the only influence being limited is the influence to lead the nations to war against Jesus.
BUT..
Since it only mentions Satan being bound and unable to influence stuff, and not also his demons.......Here's the interpretation I'm possibly comfortable with.
Satan is currently bound. He can't influence anything. His demon hoards are still on the loose. Still trying to advance his kingdom. They're doing some of his bidding but not all. The gospel is victoriously on the advance as Satan sits chained in the abyss and as his demon minion hords scamper about without their leader.
We can explain the presence of gross evil in the world on the sinful flesh in man and on the demonic influence of the scampering hoard of demons.
Just a possible interpretation.
I mean we look out at reality and it's hard to imagine Satan is bound with NO influence. Yet it's hard to read that text and think the only influence being limited is the influence to lead the nations to war against Jesus.
BUT..
Since it only mentions Satan being bound and unable to influence stuff, and not also his demons.......Here's the interpretation I'm possibly comfortable with.
Satan is currently bound. He can't influence anything. His demon hoards are still on the loose. Still trying to advance his kingdom. They're doing some of his bidding but not all. The gospel is victoriously on the advance as Satan sits chained in the abyss and as his demon minion hords scamper about without their leader.
We can explain the presence of gross evil in the world on the sinful flesh in man and on the demonic influence of the scampering hoard of demons.
Just a possible interpretation.