My ax-grinding partial preterist thread

[shroom2]

shroom -

there's just this critical thing we HAVE TO GRASP.

early this century, a new set of doctrines was injected into the Church - Dispensationalism.

it said that there were GAPS in the flow of Redemptive History.

it separated Israel the nation from the church. - this is key because it kept the Pharisees going. THEIR RELIGION is Babylonian Talmudism...Oral Traditions and Kabbalah...not Moses!

it separated Daniels 70th week from the 69th.

it took that last week (7 years), and placed it at the end of time, and said that God would rapture the gentile church away, and turn His attention back to faithful Israel, who had been supposedly been kindly blinded for 2000 years since they rejected Jesus (Romans 11 corruption - GAP) and the real Kingdom is POSTPONED until a future 1,000 years.

during the FABRICATED 7 year "tribulation", faithful Israel would rebuild a temple (a corruption of ezekiel's vision of New Jerusalem), and an EVIL POPE (or politician) would enter and stop the faithful Rabbis who love Moses (THEY ACTUALLY HOLD TO BABYLONIAN TALMUDISM) from performing THE DAILY SACRIFICE, which for some reason God is now PLEASED with.

DANIEL 9 WAS COMPLETELY FULFILLED BY JESUS AT THE FIRST ADVENT.

this is the Leaven of the Pharisees.

there is NO 7 year tribulation written in scripture. the 70th week is FULFILLED.

however.....there is a period of deception and destruction called satan's little season (Rev 20, 2 Thess2). we do not know how long this lasts, though revelation does suggest a period of 5 months.
i am still studying this.

in reality, since evangelicals have been DUPED into Christian Zionism, they have been setting up the Great Harlot in Jerusalem, and she WILL run the nations for a short space.

the NOAHIDE LAWS will be enforced (The Freemasons have been set for this PURPOSE ALONE - they will be the GENTILE COUNCILS...) The Sanhedrin is in place.


NO GAPS!

Thanks, zone, but I disagree with almost all of it.

Dispensationalism is not new doctrine. God has had several distinct ways in which He deals with people throughout time. Information about this current dispensation of grace was given to Paul:

Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

This administration of grace "fulfills" the word of God. There was indeed a "gap". OT prophets could forsee the two comings of Christ, but they did not know about this administration of grace. It was God's mystery, or secret. It was "hid in God".

Eph 3:
8) Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Israel IS separate from the church. Before Pentecost, there were Jews and gentiles. Now, in this administration, there is the body of Christ, made up of both Jews and gentiles. When this administration ends (at the rapture), things will revert to Jew and gentile again, and God will pick up His plan regarding Israel.

There WILL BE a seven year tribulation (time of Jacob's trouble). It is prophesied many times in the OT. It is still future.

There are administrations in scripture, and they must be understood to rightly-divide the bible.

 

[zone]

God's exiling them to Babylon in the second exile. I'm not having this debate. This is simple OT history stuff. I get why people think Rev is yet to be fulfilled. But for people to think Ez 7 us in the future just points to umm...failure to know your OT.

I don't mean to be snarky..and hopefully it didn't come off that way..but reallyyy..read the entire OT .

Still.
Historical Narrative!
its like its a foreign concept.

NO GAPS!

 

[shroom2]

I'm not EG, but if I may:

what 2 major battles?

Armageddon, and the conflict at the end of the thousand years.

Armageddon starts in Rev 19:11. It is at the end of the 7 year trib. Then at the end of the millennial kingdom, satan will be loosed and amass an army once more. They will be destroyed with fire from heaven. (Rev 20:9)

are they 1,000 years apart EG?

Yes

who is The Bible concerned with EG? Christians?

The primary subject is Jesus Christ.

Rabbis who are admittedly PHARISEES?

The sages of the Talmud see a direct link between themselves and the Pharisees, and historians generally consider Pharisaic Judaism to be the progenitor of Rabbinic Judaism, that is normative, mainstream Judaism after the destruction of the Second Temple. All mainstream forms of Judaism today consider themselves heirs of Rabbinic Judaism and, ultimately, the Pharisees.

or pagans who converted to Babylonian Talmudism in 700AD? >> The Eastern Church and Muslims ALL KNOW THIS! they have all along (at the highest levels they are in on it!)

Hoffman's Judaism Slideshow PREVIEW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyeW4G2WGXs

I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make.....

 

[superdave5221]

NO DAVE!
help!
i dont know anymore than you do.
just the areas i've been called to look into!
come on brother.....stay with us please.

Ok, thanks. I'll hang with ya. But there is so much to learn, and so little time it seems!

 

[1still_waters]

Still.
Historical Narrative!
its like its a foreign concept.

NO GAPS!

Just mind blowing seriously.

 

[shroom2]

Still.
Historical Narrative!
its like its a foreign concept.

NO GAPS!

Ezekiel 7:1ff is much more than historical narrative. It may well be referring to a carrying away into Babylon, but it is also prophesy for Israel about the end times. Prophesy can have two meanings.

Ezekiel 7:
1) Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2) Also, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD unto the land of Israel; An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land.

3) Now is the end come upon thee, and I will send mine anger upon thee, and will judge thee according to thy ways, and will recompense upon thee all thine abominations.

4) And mine eye shall not spare thee, neither will I have pity: but I will recompense thy ways upon thee, and thine abominations shall be in the midst of thee: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

5) Thus saith the Lord GOD; An evil, an only evil, behold, is come.

6) An end is come, the end is come: it watcheth for thee; behold, it is come.

7) The morning is come unto thee, O thou that dwellest in the land: the time is come, the day of trouble is near, and not the sounding again of the mountains.

8) Now will I shortly pour out my fury upon thee, and accomplish mine anger upon thee: and I will judge thee according to thy ways, and will recompense thee for all thine abominations.

9) And mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: I will recompense thee according to thy ways and thine abominations that are in the midst of thee; and ye shall know that I am the LORD that smiteth.

It's similar to the King of Tyrus record in Ezekiel 28. While there was a king of Tyrus, those verses are referring to satan.

Can you see that? Or do you believe Eze 7 is ONLY referring to the carrying away, and Eze 28 is ONLY referring to the literal man, the king of Tyrus?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

what 2 major battles?

Your joking right?

2 battle at the end.

One against two poweres where God destroyes them with fire from heaven (no army just supernaturally) and there are bodies strewn for miles.

armagedon. the last great battle. won by a returning voctorious Christ and his armies.

are they 1,000 years apart EG?

Nope, they both occure in the last 3 1/2 years of tribulaiton

who is The Bible concerned with EG? Christians?

The whole world.

Rabbis who are admittedly PHARISEES?

What does this have to do with a battle against Israel. it is not aginst these people ZOne. I know you hate these people with a passion, but it should not cause you to seek the truth because you hate these people.

The sages of the Talmud see a direct link between themselves and the Pharisees, and historians generally consider Pharisaic Judaism to be the progenitor of Rabbinic Judaism, that is normative, mainstream Judaism after the destruction of the Second Temple. All mainstream forms of Judaism today consider themselves heirs of Rabbinic Judaism and, ultimately, the Pharisees.

or pagans who converted to Babylonian Talmudism in 700AD? >> The Eastern Church and Muslims ALL KNOW THIS! they have all along (at the highest levels they are in on it!)

Hoffman's Judaism Slideshow PREVIEW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyeW4G2WGXs

lol Zone, you can past this internet stuff all you want. I do not get my belief system from the internet. You can find anything you want on the internet. and probably 90 % of it is biased, untrue information.

I get my belief system by studying Gods word. I can use the internet as a source. But I don't trust anything until I study it.

Now if you would like to talk scripture. Lets talk. If you want to talk what the internet says. There is nothing to say.

 

[1still_waters]

Ezekiel 7:1ff is much more than historical narrative. It may well be referring to a carrying away into Babylon, but it is also prophesy for Israel about the end times. Prophesy can have two meanings.

Ezekiel 7:
1) Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2) Also, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD unto the land of Israel; An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land.

3) Now is the end come upon thee, and I will send mine anger upon thee, and will judge thee according to thy ways, and will recompense upon thee all thine abominations.

4) And mine eye shall not spare thee, neither will I have pity: but I will recompense thy ways upon thee, and thine abominations shall be in the midst of thee: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

5) Thus saith the Lord GOD; An evil, an only evil, behold, is come.

6) An end is come, the end is come: it watcheth for thee; behold, it is come.

7) The morning is come unto thee, O thou that dwellest in the land: the time is come, the day of trouble is near, and not the sounding again of the mountains.

8) Now will I shortly pour out my fury upon thee, and accomplish mine anger upon thee: and I will judge thee according to thy ways, and will recompense thee for all thine abominations.

9) And mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: I will recompense thee according to thy ways and thine abominations that are in the midst of thee; and ye shall know that I am the LORD that smiteth.

It's similar to the King of Tyrus record in Ezekiel 28. While there was a king of Tyrus, those verses are referring to satan.

Can you see that? Or do you believe Eze 7 is ONLY referring to the carrying away, and Eze 28 is ONLY referring to the literal man, the king of Tyrus?

Yes only the carrying away to Babylon due to their covenant breaking. That's it. Period. No more.

Trying to get two fulfillments form this is like trying to impose three or four or more virgin births for a messiah.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Still.
Historical Narrative!
its like its a foreign concept.

NO GAPS!

no gaps?

1 week equals 7 years.

jesus crucified "cut off at the end of the 69th week.

7 years left.

titus destroys jerusalem 38 years later.

gap of at least 31 years (if the destruction happened at the beginning of the 70 weeks.

Try to think Zone.. You keep saying this. But your own belief demands a gap of at least 31 years! and at most 38 years.

 

[Abiding]

26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

what is the word determined mean twice?

with a 40 year grace period, and the book of revelation written
to show what must happen shortly

 

[eternally-gratefull]

26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

what is the word determined mean twice?

with a 40 year grace period, and the book of revelation written
to show what must happen shortly

so a 40 year gap?

when was the 7 year covenant made?

 

[zone]

Ok, thanks. I'll hang with ya. But there is so much to learn, and so little time it seems!

i know Dave.
but Jesus is faithful. He said if we hold fast to His word He will keep us.
this surely applies to all who stay faithful:

Revelation 3
To the Church in Philadelphia
7“And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: ‘The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, who shuts and no one opens.

8“‘I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name.

9Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet and they will learn that I have loved you. 10Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. 12The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name. 13He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

 

[zone]

so a 40 year gap?

when was the 7 year covenant made?

what 7 year covenant EG? >> there isn't one. enter SCOFIELD AND DARBY.

 

[zone]

no gaps?

1 week equals 7 years.

jesus crucified "cut off at the end of the 69th week.

7 years left.

titus destroys jerusalem 38 years later.

gap of at least 31 years (if the destruction happened at the beginning of the 70 weeks.

Try to think Zone.. You keep saying this. But your own belief demands a gap of at least 31 years! and at most 38 years.

EG - Christ decreed, prophesied, said, uttered, spoke, cursed, talked, spoke THE DECREE when He walked the earth.

He prophesied THE DECREE against Jerusalem in the 70th week....it was NOT A SURPRISE. GABRIEL TOLD DANIEL EXACTLY HOW IT WAS GOING DOWN.

HE SPOKE IT BEFORE HE WAS CUT OFF......3 and 1/2 years into His ministry. in the MIDDLE OF THE 70TH WEEK.

Titus consummmated, carried out, did it, performed, desolated her WITHIN THAT GENERATION....less than 40 years.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

what 7 year covenant EG? >> there isn't one. enter SCOFIELD AND DARBY.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

I guess scofield and darby made that up??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG - Christ decreed, prophesied, said, uttered, spoke, cursed, talked, spoke THE DECREE when He walked the earth.

He prophesied THE DECREE against Jerusalem in the 70th week....it was NOT A SURPRISE. GABRIEL TOLD DANIEL EXACTLY HOW IT WAS GOING DOWN.

HE SPOKE IT BEFORE HE WAS CUT OFF......3 and 1/2 years into His ministry. in the MIDDLE OF THE 70TH WEEK.

Titus consummmated, carried out, did it, performed, desolated her WITHIN THAT GENERATION....less than 40 years.

Zone. 7 years is 7 years.

daniel said the people of the prince who is to come will destroy jerusalem. then he makes a covenant for 1 week. (7 years) then he commits the abomination.

Jesus said the abomination will occure which will start the tribulation. what 3 1/2 year tribulaiton followed titus destruction of jerusalem?In fact scripture tells us this is so great, of God does not put a stop to it. no one would be saved. How oculd mankind have destroyed himself in titus time?

 

[zone]

Yes only the carrying away to Babylon due to their covenant breaking. That's it. Period. No more.

Trying to get two fulfillments form this is like trying to impose three or four or more virgin births for a messiah.

Still:
the great irony....

Dispensationalists accuse Covenants (i.e: Amils) of spiritualizing scripture....not reading literally.
huh?

a former dispensationalist:

Dr. Kim Riddlebarger

Amillennialism 101 -- Audio Resources

Riddleblog - The Latest Post

 

[zone]

Zone. 7 years is 7 years.

daniel said the people of the prince who is to come will destroy jerusalem. then he makes a covenant for 1 week. (7 years) then he commits the abomination.

Jesus said the abomination will occure which will start the tribulation. what 3 1/2 year tribulaiton followed titus destruction of jerusalem?In fact scripture tells us this is so great, of God does not put a stop to it. no one would be saved. How oculd mankind have destroyed himself in titus time?

show me a 7 year covenant by some future devil.

Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

DISPENSATIONAL DARBYITE SCOFIELDIAN GAP.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Matt 24: 21-23
Christ: 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

1. Impossible in titus time, Unless you think the last two sword weilding men on earth would fight to the death.
2. About the greates horror mankind has ever seen is WW2, and even then. this was impossible.
3. Until the advent of nuclear power and the destuctive power it has to potentially wipe mankind off the face of the earth. What jesus spoke of here could NEVER HAVE HAPPENED. which means up until the last 60 years, this could not have been fulfilled!

Zoneth my friend. You keep saying me belief leaves gaps, and it is wrong. Your belief has way to many gaps. and can not even be fulfilled. and far to many questions unanswered.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

show me a 7 year covenant by some future devil.

Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Unless you are not reading what you posted. It is right there in black bold. Starts with blue bold, titus destroyes the city. Continues with black bold. the covenant. Continues with blue bold, the breaking of the covenant and abomination which starts tribulation. (see Jesus matt 24)

Now tell me you do not see that Zone? Those things in sequence happen AFTER the city and sanctuary.