Predestination
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E
Sorry. I did not get home till late. I compaired this to other greek sources. As usual. They highlight the one word. But do not show the others, or put them in the background. to get the authors opinion of what he thinks it means.
1. Drag is one defenition. Drag by force.
2. The other is used in a metaphorical way, it means to draw, pull, lead or pursuade. Just like in the verse. The Holy Spirit pulls, leads, directs and persuades those whom God sent him to to come to truth. (One example given in a greek text was someone saying they would use love to persuade people to follow them)
Of course, Since God already knows that person and everything about him. God also knows WHAT it will take to get them to come to truth. If it takes more than just a gentle persuasion. God will use more. (see Jonah and the whale) Jonah resisted, But God knew what it would take to get him to comply.
1. Drag is one defenition. Drag by force.
2. The other is used in a metaphorical way, it means to draw, pull, lead or pursuade. Just like in the verse. The Holy Spirit pulls, leads, directs and persuades those whom God sent him to to come to truth. (One example given in a greek text was someone saying they would use love to persuade people to follow them)
Of course, Since God already knows that person and everything about him. God also knows WHAT it will take to get them to come to truth. If it takes more than just a gentle persuasion. God will use more. (see Jonah and the whale) Jonah resisted, But God knew what it would take to get him to comply.
hi EG.
how can you say that? the words are right there.
and you severed half the original post which gave more detail.
right.
that's what i posted.
it's quite a bit stronger than that EG.
we are talking about God pulling leading persuading, dragging.
He has a deliberate intent.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
this is straight-forward.
the Father does the giving
the Father does the drawing (dragging)
ALL the Father give WILL go the Jesus
ALL who go to Jesus (are dragged, drawn) will NEVER be cast out
this looks like a very serious endeavour on the part of the GodHead to bring a man to glory, and all of it appears to be His Sovereign work.
does God plan to save all men?
because according to what you wrote above, if He planned to save all, He is perfectly able to use varying degrees of effort or persuasion or whatever you wish to call it.
if, as some tell us, by misunderstanding 2 Peter 3:9, that God really wishes all men would be saved, but He can't persuade them, why can't He?
Ephesians 2 is razor sharp and totally clear that men dead in trepasses and sins are called out, given faith, and by Grace are saved, it having absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with them. they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, as a signet or mark of ownership and downpayment on the future delivery into the kingdom.
men are bought by Christ, sealed by The Spirit, and delivered (led, escorted, even arrested) by the Spirit as they are transformed and groomed for the eternal Kingdom, to which they already belong.
does any of this have much to do with those men?
their new birth was like the wind:
John 3
You Must Be Born Again
1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2This man came to Jesusa by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born againb he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.c 7Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘Youd must be born again.’ 8The winde blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
~
Sola Scriptura - Scripture Alone
Solus Christus - Christ Alone
Sola Gratia - Grace Alone
Sola Fide - Faith Alone
Soli Deo Gloria - The Glory of God Alone
Unwarranted confidence in human ability is a product of fallen human nature ... God's grace in Christ is not merely necessary but is the sole efficient cause of salvation. We confess that human beings are born spiritually dead and are incapable even of cooperating with regenerating grace. We reaffirm that in salvation we are rescued from God's wrath by his grace alone. It is the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit that brings us to Christ by releasing us from our bondage to sin and raising us from spiritual death to spiritual life. We deny that salvation is in any sense a human work. Human methods, techniques or strategies by themselves cannot accomplish this transformation. Faith is not produced by our unregenerated human nature. - Cambridge Declaration
how can you say that? the words are right there.
and you severed half the original post which gave more detail.
right.
that's what i posted.
it's quite a bit stronger than that EG.
we are talking about God pulling leading persuading, dragging.
He has a deliberate intent.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
this is straight-forward.
the Father does the giving
the Father does the drawing (dragging)
ALL the Father give WILL go the Jesus
ALL who go to Jesus (are dragged, drawn) will NEVER be cast out
this looks like a very serious endeavour on the part of the GodHead to bring a man to glory, and all of it appears to be His Sovereign work.
does God plan to save all men?
because according to what you wrote above, if He planned to save all, He is perfectly able to use varying degrees of effort or persuasion or whatever you wish to call it.
if, as some tell us, by misunderstanding 2 Peter 3:9, that God really wishes all men would be saved, but He can't persuade them, why can't He?
Ephesians 2 is razor sharp and totally clear that men dead in trepasses and sins are called out, given faith, and by Grace are saved, it having absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with them. they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, as a signet or mark of ownership and downpayment on the future delivery into the kingdom.
men are bought by Christ, sealed by The Spirit, and delivered (led, escorted, even arrested) by the Spirit as they are transformed and groomed for the eternal Kingdom, to which they already belong.
does any of this have much to do with those men?
their new birth was like the wind:
John 3
You Must Be Born Again
1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2This man came to Jesusa by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born againb he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.c 7Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘Youd must be born again.’ 8The winde blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
~
Sola Scriptura - Scripture Alone
Solus Christus - Christ Alone
Sola Gratia - Grace Alone
Sola Fide - Faith Alone
Soli Deo Gloria - The Glory of God Alone
Unwarranted confidence in human ability is a product of fallen human nature ... God's grace in Christ is not merely necessary but is the sole efficient cause of salvation. We confess that human beings are born spiritually dead and are incapable even of cooperating with regenerating grace. We reaffirm that in salvation we are rescued from God's wrath by his grace alone. It is the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit that brings us to Christ by releasing us from our bondage to sin and raising us from spiritual death to spiritual life. We deny that salvation is in any sense a human work. Human methods, techniques or strategies by themselves cannot accomplish this transformation. Faith is not produced by our unregenerated human nature. - Cambridge Declaration
E
Hey Zone, the only part of the post I left out was the "bolded" part of the post. I even admited it was ONE of the defenitions. so it is not like I left it out!
I posted only this part to show that the author was highlighting what he believed is meant, And put the rest in small print (or did you do that)
r No it is not quite that Zone. God does not force anyone. If he did he would not offer his gift to all. And he could not condemn anyone for rejecting. The fact we can reject proves we have free will. Why do you keep ignoring this part?
yes God persuades us, By any means he can to get us to come to him. I am not denying this. But persuading someone and dragging them while they are fighting is not the same.
God is willing that NONE should parish, but all should come to repentnance? So if it is Gods will that ALL are saved. why aren';t they?
lol. How can you say that? Trying to pursuade someone does not mean they will resist. I already showed passages that show we can resist God and the HS.
Actually it is the other way. If your right. And God will it and it happens against our will. Then ALL men would be saved. Because it is Gods will that ALL be saved!
Because many are unwilling. God will not force you. If he did force you. As 2 peter says. ALL would be saved, because who can resist the pursuading of God? I guess alot of people.
Read Romans 1. No one will have an excuse. because God has shown himself to all. But people resisted him and turned to their own lusts rather than believe in truth.
Yep. God called out Israel too. And they rejected him. He calls out all me/. Many want to look away and not believe/. Many want to say yeah I believe, But I want to do it my way (work to earn it)
I was given the gift of faith because of what Christ promised. I chose to trust in this. Other people are offered this same gift. and reject it. People go to hell because they reject the gift.
Yep your right. But this does not mean God forces anyone
it must. Many people remain babes in Christ and never grow up, against Gods will. why is this? because they resist. or because God failed?
Yep. you can't see it.
faith is the substance of things hoped for. the evidence of things NOT SEEN.
God empowers our faith by proving himself to us. Even though we can't see him.
he also grows our faith by proving whenever we chose to follow him, we see he does not let us down, and his way is better.
Its all of the power of God
Unwarranted confidence in human ability is a product of fallen human nature ...
[/quote]
Yep it is. And if I did not trust completely in God. but trusted in myself. My faith would be in myself and my works, and Not in God. Where God gets ALL the credit
Nothing here goes against what I say. I can do nothing to add to Gods provision. He is the sole source of my salvation. I sit still. Trust him (have faith) he he does all the work.
He died in my place
He rose from the dead as firstfruits.
he promises I can spend an eternity wiht him based solely on the above two things
He washes
He regenerates
he seals
He gaurantees
He sanctifies (helps us grow)
he chastens (helps us grow or brings us back in line)
It is all him. I did nothing but trust that all the above is true. It is God. and God can not lie.
In the HOPE of eternal life, which God, WHO CAN NOT LIE, promised BEFORE time BEGAN.
It is all God. I did nothing. God is the sole source of my salvation
I posted only this part to show that the author was highlighting what he believed is meant, And put the rest in small print (or did you do that)
r No it is not quite that Zone. God does not force anyone. If he did he would not offer his gift to all. And he could not condemn anyone for rejecting. The fact we can reject proves we have free will. Why do you keep ignoring this part?
yes God persuades us, By any means he can to get us to come to him. I am not denying this. But persuading someone and dragging them while they are fighting is not the same.
God is willing that NONE should parish, but all should come to repentnance? So if it is Gods will that ALL are saved. why aren';t they?
lol. How can you say that? Trying to pursuade someone does not mean they will resist. I already showed passages that show we can resist God and the HS.
Actually it is the other way. If your right. And God will it and it happens against our will. Then ALL men would be saved. Because it is Gods will that ALL be saved!
Because many are unwilling. God will not force you. If he did force you. As 2 peter says. ALL would be saved, because who can resist the pursuading of God? I guess alot of people.
Read Romans 1. No one will have an excuse. because God has shown himself to all. But people resisted him and turned to their own lusts rather than believe in truth.
Yep. God called out Israel too. And they rejected him. He calls out all me/. Many want to look away and not believe/. Many want to say yeah I believe, But I want to do it my way (work to earn it)
I was given the gift of faith because of what Christ promised. I chose to trust in this. Other people are offered this same gift. and reject it. People go to hell because they reject the gift.
Yep your right. But this does not mean God forces anyone
it must. Many people remain babes in Christ and never grow up, against Gods will. why is this? because they resist. or because God failed?
Yep. you can't see it.
faith is the substance of things hoped for. the evidence of things NOT SEEN.
God empowers our faith by proving himself to us. Even though we can't see him.
he also grows our faith by proving whenever we chose to follow him, we see he does not let us down, and his way is better.
Its all of the power of God
Unwarranted confidence in human ability is a product of fallen human nature ...
[/quote]
Yep it is. And if I did not trust completely in God. but trusted in myself. My faith would be in myself and my works, and Not in God. Where God gets ALL the credit
Nothing here goes against what I say. I can do nothing to add to Gods provision. He is the sole source of my salvation. I sit still. Trust him (have faith) he he does all the work.
He died in my place
He rose from the dead as firstfruits.
he promises I can spend an eternity wiht him based solely on the above two things
He washes
He regenerates
he seals
He gaurantees
He sanctifies (helps us grow)
he chastens (helps us grow or brings us back in line)
It is all him. I did nothing but trust that all the above is true. It is God. and God can not lie.
In the HOPE of eternal life, which God, WHO CAN NOT LIE, promised BEFORE time BEGAN.
It is all God. I did nothing. God is the sole source of my salvation
P
actually, god called people for a "purpose." abraham was chosen to bring blessings to all the families of the earth. as spiriyual chioldren of abraham through christ, christians are called for that same pupose. it has nothing to do with individual predestination. if i person wants to be part of god's plan and pupose, they are welcome to join in, if they have thier own agenda contrary to god's pupose, than they will find themselves in hot water. thats how it works