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T
Ok, your choice:
If you want to take this literally and limit it to ONLY Scripture, it's ONLY the Old Testament. Because at the time that was written, there were no Gospels, and only a handful of letters that were NOT considered Scripture at the time.
If you recognize that this verse is not limited, and means by "Scripture" anything which God speaks to us, then you can't limit it to your own likes or dislikes. You have to take everything that God speaks, as if he didn't die 2,000 years ago.
Don't put a period where God put a comma.
If you want to take this literally and limit it to ONLY Scripture, it's ONLY the Old Testament. Because at the time that was written, there were no Gospels, and only a handful of letters that were NOT considered Scripture at the time.
If you recognize that this verse is not limited, and means by "Scripture" anything which God speaks to us, then you can't limit it to your own likes or dislikes. You have to take everything that God speaks, as if he didn't die 2,000 years ago.
Don't put a period where God put a comma.
Sola Scripture unbiblical. Jesus never taught Bible alone. The Apostles never taught Bible alone. Bu if you want to speak about the Bereans and want to say that this proves Bible alone, you are wrong. They did not specifically teach us Christians to use Bible alone, those passages about the Bereans were talking about the Bereans, it was not talking about us Christians.
The Bible doesn't tell you how to interpret the Bible, and this is the most important thing of all about the Bible . If you don't interpret the Bible correctly, you are living in Christian Babylon (CONFUSION). Christian Babylon is Protestantism, because everyone walks around like infallible interpreters of the Bible. That is why there are 43,000 different Protestant denominations.
The Bible doesn't tell you how to interpret the Bible, and this is the most important thing of all about the Bible . If you don't interpret the Bible correctly, you are living in Christian Babylon (CONFUSION). Christian Babylon is Protestantism, because everyone walks around like infallible interpreters of the Bible. That is why there are 43,000 different Protestant denominations.
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C
I did not come in here declaring that you were not Christians just for the sake of being hateful. I made that statement in the hope that there might be someone on here that would start to think, "why would someone say that" and begin to ask questions. My purpose in coming on here as a Christian in catholic territory is only so that if there were roman catholics in here that might read a few scripture and start to see that the Bible contradicts most of what they are being taught and Christ is the Way, Truth, the Life... Jesus Christ is our intercession, not a man in a box with the same depravity we all have thru Adam. I hoped that they would see that Christ is our propitiation... Mary is not going to intercede, the Bible does not teach to Pray to her and the Pope is no more closer to God than the bum sitting on the side of the road reading his Bible with a cardboard sign that says Jesus Saves... Matter of fact the bum has been declared righteous thru his Faith in Christ, repentance and turning to God.
Right...
You have no idea what the Catholic Church actually teaches. I came to the Catholic Church specifically because it follows the teachings of Scripture better than any other denomination in the world (with the sole possible exception of the Eastern Orthodox). You cannot honestly think that you'll win anyone over to your version of Christianity if you don't even know the basics of what you're trying to preach against.
Your fervor is admirable, but you have little actual knowledge of what the Catholic Church really teaches. Instead you're busy preaching against an imaginary version of the Church.
You have no idea what the Catholic Church actually teaches. I came to the Catholic Church specifically because it follows the teachings of Scripture better than any other denomination in the world (with the sole possible exception of the Eastern Orthodox). You cannot honestly think that you'll win anyone over to your version of Christianity if you don't even know the basics of what you're trying to preach against.
Your fervor is admirable, but you have little actual knowledge of what the Catholic Church really teaches. Instead you're busy preaching against an imaginary version of the Church.
C
I have two friends of mine that came to Church with me and were raised in a catholic church and catholic school. They would not read a Bible because they told me they were taught not to read it. They were confused as to why the Preacher was saying that Jesus Christ is the blood atonement and that he lived a perfect sinless life and is the spotless lamb that was prophesied to come. They told me that they had been taught that Jesus was a sinner just like you and me because of an affair with Mary Magdelane and that Mary will speak to God on there behalf and attempt to persuade God to allow them into Heaven. They said they were taught to Pray to Mary the mother of God because she is there mediator. I made an attempt to show them in scripture how the man Christ Jesus is the one and only mediator between God and man but I feel like they were just more confused since they had been so indoctrinated by lies.
T
If I had a dime every time someone said, "I had a friend who used to be Catholic and s/he was told not to read the Bible...."
This is an urban myth. Ranks up there with the liver collector and the shoes hanging from the street light. I don't doubt that there may be a handful of Catholics who never really paid attention in church, and for that reason, don't know what their church teaches, even though they went to mass every Sunday. But I PROMISE you, NO CATHOLIC PRIEST has EVER told someone not to read the Bible.
In fact, there is more Scripture read during a typical Catholic Mass than in any evangelical service I've ever been to. At most, the preacher in an evangelical service might read a chapter, and that's pushing it ... usually he reads only a few verses from one book, and then preaches on that. In the Catholic Mass, we read not one, not two, not three, but FOUR different passages: one usually from the Old Testament Law or Prophets (though sometimes you get Acts or Revelation in there), one Psalm, one from an Epistle, and one from the Gospels. And that doesn't include all the parts of the mass ordinary that are from Scripture.
And don't even get me started on the farce that so many protestant churches have of starving their parishioners, serving communion only once a month, or even less often. You accuse priests of wielding too much authority, because they can retain the sins of others or forgive the sins of others (which is only what Jesus commanded) .... but at least they don't withhold Jesus' own body and blood from all parishoners just because it's inconvenient to have communion every week. Sheesh.
I got news for you. IF this actually happened, and you're not just making it up, and IF your friends weren't just pulling your leg, then they were NOT Catholic, no matter what they said. The Catholic Church has NEVER taught that Jesus was "a sinner just like you and me." The ONLY church I ever heard such claptrap from was a Presbyterian church. Can't get more protestant than that.
Like the ones you're telling now?
This is an urban myth. Ranks up there with the liver collector and the shoes hanging from the street light. I don't doubt that there may be a handful of Catholics who never really paid attention in church, and for that reason, don't know what their church teaches, even though they went to mass every Sunday. But I PROMISE you, NO CATHOLIC PRIEST has EVER told someone not to read the Bible.
In fact, there is more Scripture read during a typical Catholic Mass than in any evangelical service I've ever been to. At most, the preacher in an evangelical service might read a chapter, and that's pushing it ... usually he reads only a few verses from one book, and then preaches on that. In the Catholic Mass, we read not one, not two, not three, but FOUR different passages: one usually from the Old Testament Law or Prophets (though sometimes you get Acts or Revelation in there), one Psalm, one from an Epistle, and one from the Gospels. And that doesn't include all the parts of the mass ordinary that are from Scripture.
And don't even get me started on the farce that so many protestant churches have of starving their parishioners, serving communion only once a month, or even less often. You accuse priests of wielding too much authority, because they can retain the sins of others or forgive the sins of others (which is only what Jesus commanded) .... but at least they don't withhold Jesus' own body and blood from all parishoners just because it's inconvenient to have communion every week. Sheesh.
I got news for you. IF this actually happened, and you're not just making it up, and IF your friends weren't just pulling your leg, then they were NOT Catholic, no matter what they said. The Catholic Church has NEVER taught that Jesus was "a sinner just like you and me." The ONLY church I ever heard such claptrap from was a Presbyterian church. Can't get more protestant than that.
Like the ones you're telling now?
T
I suspect he's just making the "I had two friends" thing up.
Did you know some denominations don't require ANY special education to become ordained? Like, you can be a preacher in some denominations without even knowing Greek or Hebrew, or Church History, or Exegesis, or anything.
This is why denomination is so important to me: No, we are not saved according to what denomination we are. But it's good to know that SOMEONE is holding my preacher (priest) accountable. Non-denominational churches can't say the same thing.
Did you know some denominations don't require ANY special education to become ordained? Like, you can be a preacher in some denominations without even knowing Greek or Hebrew, or Church History, or Exegesis, or anything.
This is why denomination is so important to me: No, we are not saved according to what denomination we are. But it's good to know that SOMEONE is holding my preacher (priest) accountable. Non-denominational churches can't say the same thing.
R
So what you are saying that there are not three "persons" but three manifestations just that you like to use the word "persons" to show that "they" are not the same.
As it is said that is what the catholic believes. Believing is not the same thing as Knowing...any one can believe they are going to win the lottery but do they? Any one can know if they won or lost the lottery by reading the numbers.
You could win by reading these numbers.
"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." (Isaiah 43:11) Old Testament
besides the Father there is no Saviour.
Yes the Father is Saviour "But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:"(2 Timothy 1:10) New Testament
"I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."(Isaiah 45:23) Old Testament
Every knee shall bow unto the Father.
Yes every knee shall bow to God! "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;"(Philippians 2:10)New Testament
"Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?..."-(Malachi 2:10) If Jesus is God it logically fallows that Jesus is the Father.
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."-(Isaiah 9:6) Jesus is the Son prophesied about and there is only ONE Father. The EVERLASTING FATHER
As it is said that is what the catholic believes. Believing is not the same thing as Knowing...any one can believe they are going to win the lottery but do they? Any one can know if they won or lost the lottery by reading the numbers.
You could win by reading these numbers.
"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." (Isaiah 43:11) Old Testament
besides the Father there is no Saviour.
Yes the Father is Saviour "But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:"(2 Timothy 1:10) New Testament
"I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."(Isaiah 45:23) Old Testament
Every knee shall bow unto the Father.
Yes every knee shall bow to God! "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;"(Philippians 2:10)New Testament
"Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?..."-(Malachi 2:10) If Jesus is God it logically fallows that Jesus is the Father.
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."-(Isaiah 9:6) Jesus is the Son prophesied about and there is only ONE Father. The EVERLASTING FATHER
C
I said "I have two friends" not "I had two friends" and they are still my friends and I still witness to them whenever I get an opportunity to share the Truth of God... As far as denomination being important to you, it is also very important to me as well and so I am first and foremost a Christian but in my practice I am a member of an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church and I am so by conviction. Most people wether they will admit it or not are aware that in general most non denominational churches are a joke and are nothing more than entertainment hour which is not unusual for the Laodicean Church age that we live in. There are many Baptist Churches that are nothing more than entertainment hour and a business such as the southern Baptist convention which by having a convention cannot be Baptist at all. What I do know is that Yes, I really do have two friends that are lost and headed for Hell and they are dead in their sins because of what they have been taught. I understand that you and others are claiming that the catholic church does not teach such things and this could be true in certain churches but in general I know and you know that those things mentioned in the posts leading up to this post are being taught and people are perishing.
W
Its very unfortunate that your friends were taught incorrectly and have false interpretations of what the Catholic Church teaches. But if a priest teaches something against what the Catholic Church teaches, how does that in any way make what the Catholic Church teaches wrong? You see with us theres no "in general" about what the Catholic Church teaches. Its all laid out in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and in Canon law. The Youcat we were talking about is an easy to understand version of the CCC. I encourage you to look it up so you can see for yourself what we teach rather than relying on the misinformation of your friends.
Alright then, I apologize for treating you harshly. You are right about the pope not being anyone special. He isn't worth anymore than you or I. God is no respecter of persons. We don't worship him. We adore him the same way that the apostles were adored by the crowds who came to see them speak publicly. Is this something that you simply choose to not understand? I think any reasonable person would understand what I am saying.
Just for your information, I have read the bible and I also know what the Catholic church believes. You may know the bible and have been to cathecism, but I assure you that you misunderstand what catholics believe.
Yes, NO one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ.. but does that forbid us from asking someone who is favored by God to pray for us? NO. Mary is indeed favored by God (see Luke 1:28), and Jesus himself said that those who have eternal life are not dead (see Mat 22:32) so we are not asking a dead person to pray for us.
Just for your information, I have read the bible and I also know what the Catholic church believes. You may know the bible and have been to cathecism, but I assure you that you misunderstand what catholics believe.
Yes, NO one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ.. but does that forbid us from asking someone who is favored by God to pray for us? NO. Mary is indeed favored by God (see Luke 1:28), and Jesus himself said that those who have eternal life are not dead (see Mat 22:32) so we are not asking a dead person to pray for us.
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C
I do not believe asking Mary to Pray for you is forbidden but I would be hesitant to do so because of the amount of emphasis that might be put on it. Asking my mother or just a born again Christian at my Church to Pray for me would be just as effective because when we accept that free gift of Jesus Christ willfully laying down his life for our sins we are declared righteous thru him. There is not degrees of righteousness at that point just obedience and our works will be tried by fire. I am hesitant to put a lot of emphasis on asking anyone like Mary to Pray for me because I would feel like I might be putting someone before my God as an idol or worshipping another God, which the Bible tells me not too and my God is a jealous God. I would rather come boldly to my Lord directly in Prayer thru my high priest the Lord Jesus Christ and this would also assure me in my heart that I am following one of the two greatest commandments to Love the Lord my God with all my heart and all my mind... The same applies to having a reverence for seeing the pope and adoring him, again I would rather meditate on my God and in my life have a reverence for what he has done. Nature itself declares the Glory and the majesty of God and I can take a look at the creation , the moon, the stars, the most intricate details of plant cells, the workings of the human body, etc etc and I can say wow, my God spoke that into existence. That is what you call infinite power and in my life I will worship Jesus Christ in Spirit and in Truth. Christ and Christ alone.
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T
In fact, if a priest teaches wrongly, he will be removed from his parish. That's why I doubt the story this guy is spouting. There's no way these "friends" of his were taught what he is claiming they were taught. Either they're lying or he is.
Now, it's possible that they weren't paying attention while they were in Church. I know many people -- Catholic and protestant alike -- who have really crazy ideas about what their church teaches because they didn't pay attention. It's the same as kids in school. If a kid can't add, it's not because the teacher taught him that 2+2=5, but that he wasn't paying attention when the teacher said 2+2=4. Big difference.
Now, it's possible that they weren't paying attention while they were in Church. I know many people -- Catholic and protestant alike -- who have really crazy ideas about what their church teaches because they didn't pay attention. It's the same as kids in school. If a kid can't add, it's not because the teacher taught him that 2+2=5, but that he wasn't paying attention when the teacher said 2+2=4. Big difference.
T
Except that Scripture doesn't say your mother or "just a born against Christian at your Church" is exalted. Scripture DOES say that Mary is exalted.
I'm not saying God likes His mom better than your mom. Just that he pays a little more attention to her.
Well, I'm sorry your faith is so shaky that you fear a slip like that. Most Catholics do not have such shaky faiths.
Which Catholics do, too, by the way.
I'm not saying God likes His mom better than your mom. Just that he pays a little more attention to her.
Well, I'm sorry your faith is so shaky that you fear a slip like that. Most Catholics do not have such shaky faiths.
Which Catholics do, too, by the way.
R
Oh ok I didnt know that about the Eucharist, sounds likely though. I didnt know a roof feel on people! Jeez. Hmm glowsticks I cant remember, I met some americans with tie-dye tshirts, and I met some from detroit who gave me a bracelet but there was a lot of americans out there! 
Did your group have a certain colour of tshirt? Did you meet any Irish people?
Did your group have a certain colour of tshirt? Did you meet any Irish people?
Yes, everything you've said makes sense to me and I don't have any criticism against it of course. There is nothing wrong with praying to Jesus. We are all made righteous through his forgiveness. And I understand your point about how we might be overemphasizing Mary, but one reason we feel priveleged to ask her to pray for us is because in John 2 we see that Jesus does what his mother asks of him:
When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”
“Dear woman, why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My time has not yet come.”
His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim. - (John 2:3-5, 7)
Also, The last thing Jesus did before he died on he cross was to make Mary the mother of his disciples:
When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Dear woman, here is your son,” and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home. - John 19:26-27
So we are asking her intercession because she can petition Jesus like none of us really can, and because she is our Blessed Mother (blessed by the Lord on the cross as mother of his disciples).
When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”
“Dear woman, why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My time has not yet come.”
His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim. - (John 2:3-5, 7)
Also, The last thing Jesus did before he died on he cross was to make Mary the mother of his disciples:
When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Dear woman, here is your son,” and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home. - John 19:26-27
So we are asking her intercession because she can petition Jesus like none of us really can, and because she is our Blessed Mother (blessed by the Lord on the cross as mother of his disciples).
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