Loss of salvation???
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I think the fundamental issue you are having is with regards to the nature of salvation and “who” is ultimately saved.
There is one saved person. One firstborn Son of God. One person who has received the inheritance from God the Father. For Hebrews states clearly,
Thus, an individual is only a “child of God” as a result of their connection with Christ. Our salvation and sanctification has “one source.” Thus, we are “born again” when we are united with Christ. We “share“ in his inheritance and resurrection. However, if we turn from Christ and walk away from him, no sacrifice for sins is left because our salvation is “in him.” That is why Jesus says,
So, you see, it’s not that someone “is saved” as an isolated being and then is suddenly declared “not saved.” They are saved when they are united with Christ. When someone is united with Christ, they share in his life. However, if they do not “abide” in him, they are like a branch that is cut off and withers. It is not that they had life and it was taken away. They had life in Christ, and if they reject him, they reject the life he provides. Thus, our eternal life is not “ours” it is his. And we find our life in him.
I would illustrate it this way. The moon shines at night. However, its light is merely a reflection of the light of the sun based on its proximity to the sun. When a lunar eclipse happens, it’s not that the moon loses its light. It’s that it is not connected to the sun. Obviously, the illustration of the vine and branches is more appropriate because it’s not just that we reflect the life of Christ, but that we actually have it within us. However, that life is based on our connection with him and is not based on some status we have attained.
There is one saved person. One firstborn Son of God. One person who has received the inheritance from God the Father. For Hebrews states clearly,
Thus, an individual is only a “child of God” as a result of their connection with Christ. Our salvation and sanctification has “one source.” Thus, we are “born again” when we are united with Christ. We “share“ in his inheritance and resurrection. However, if we turn from Christ and walk away from him, no sacrifice for sins is left because our salvation is “in him.” That is why Jesus says,
So, you see, it’s not that someone “is saved” as an isolated being and then is suddenly declared “not saved.” They are saved when they are united with Christ. When someone is united with Christ, they share in his life. However, if they do not “abide” in him, they are like a branch that is cut off and withers. It is not that they had life and it was taken away. They had life in Christ, and if they reject him, they reject the life he provides. Thus, our eternal life is not “ours” it is his. And we find our life in him.
I would illustrate it this way. The moon shines at night. However, its light is merely a reflection of the light of the sun based on its proximity to the sun. When a lunar eclipse happens, it’s not that the moon loses its light. It’s that it is not connected to the sun. Obviously, the illustration of the vine and branches is more appropriate because it’s not just that we reflect the life of Christ, but that we actually have it within us. However, that life is based on our connection with him and is not based on some status we have attained.
I appreciate the answer, but my fundamental issue isn't the nature of salvation. My fundamental issue is people don't actually answer my questions. When someone is saved, they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. They become a new creation and are placed into Christ. This is a real and supernatural reality. A person is changed or birthed spiritually and is vitally linked to the life of Christ. These truths are the source of my questions.
Can a person who has been born physically be unborn? No.
Can someone who is placed into Christ be separated from the love of God? No.
So while I appreciate you answering, you have failed to convince me that you understand what actually happens to an individual when God draws near and saves an individual.
Can a person who has been born physically be unborn? No.
Can someone who is placed into Christ be separated from the love of God? No.
So while I appreciate you answering, you have failed to convince me that you understand what actually happens to an individual when God draws near and saves an individual.
Of course. I appreciate the dialogue. Let me try to answer the reasonable questions you posted…
Can a person who has born physically be unborn?
I agree someone cannot be physically unborn. However, a person who can be born again in Christ can walk away from Christ. Scripture is replete with these indications. Most of which have already been posted, but just to surmise, Hebrews makes it clear that those who are ”in danger of being burned” are those who have ”tasted the heavenly gift” and have received the Holy Spirit. We know that only those who are of Christ have the Holy Spirit (cf. Romans 8) so we know the author is speaking about Christians. Spiritual birth is not like physical birth. Jesus states as much in his dialogue with Nicodemus in John 3. Those who are spiritually born are born and live as a result of their faith and the work of the Holy Spirit, not as a result of physical processes (See also John 1:13). Thus, if someone who has the Holy Spirit can resist the Spirit and turn from the faith, they are in danger of being cut off.
Can someone who is place into Christ be separated from the love of God.
I agree the answer is a resounding, “no.” However, you must also consider that God loves “the world.” So much so, that He gave his only Son. So, just because God loves someone does not mean that this mandates their salvation or else we would have to argue that universalism is true. So unless you are a universalist, you would agree with me that God’s love does not mandate everyone is saved. God loves us, more than we can imagine. Yet He has given us the freedom to choose whether to we put faith in Jesus and receive life in His name. The only difference in our perspectives (i imagine) is that you believe this gift means a person no longer has the capacity to choose whereas I believe that Christians still maintain the capacity to choose to believe or not.
I think we have provided a number of texts that indicate that Christians can stop believing and lose faith in Christ. In fact, I would argue that ALL the letters to the churches in Revelation are predicated on this very fact. These are all Christians and members of the church to which Jesus is warning that if they they must “endure” to receive the promises he gives.
Anyway, thanks for the response. Have a happy 4th
Can a person who has born physically be unborn?
I agree someone cannot be physically unborn. However, a person who can be born again in Christ can walk away from Christ. Scripture is replete with these indications. Most of which have already been posted, but just to surmise, Hebrews makes it clear that those who are ”in danger of being burned” are those who have ”tasted the heavenly gift” and have received the Holy Spirit. We know that only those who are of Christ have the Holy Spirit (cf. Romans 8) so we know the author is speaking about Christians. Spiritual birth is not like physical birth. Jesus states as much in his dialogue with Nicodemus in John 3. Those who are spiritually born are born and live as a result of their faith and the work of the Holy Spirit, not as a result of physical processes (See also John 1:13). Thus, if someone who has the Holy Spirit can resist the Spirit and turn from the faith, they are in danger of being cut off.
Can someone who is place into Christ be separated from the love of God.
I agree the answer is a resounding, “no.” However, you must also consider that God loves “the world.” So much so, that He gave his only Son. So, just because God loves someone does not mean that this mandates their salvation or else we would have to argue that universalism is true. So unless you are a universalist, you would agree with me that God’s love does not mandate everyone is saved. God loves us, more than we can imagine. Yet He has given us the freedom to choose whether to we put faith in Jesus and receive life in His name. The only difference in our perspectives (i imagine) is that you believe this gift means a person no longer has the capacity to choose whereas I believe that Christians still maintain the capacity to choose to believe or not.
I think we have provided a number of texts that indicate that Christians can stop believing and lose faith in Christ. In fact, I would argue that ALL the letters to the churches in Revelation are predicated on this very fact. These are all Christians and members of the church to which Jesus is warning that if they they must “endure” to receive the promises he gives.
Anyway, thanks for the response. Have a happy 4th
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Before the cross, I forgave to get forgiven, if did not forgive, I could not be forgiven, I had to do to get
Before the cross, I loved to get loved, if I did not love, I could not be loved
Do you see the conundrum above? there is a before and after the cross. I now love because I am loved first by God, I now forgive, because I am forgiven by God through Son on that cross, it is finished for us to do that in response, not work of self.
Today is after the cross, not before the cross. We the people are looking back at the cross as those before it, looked forward to it, Hebrews 11
Looking back, to what is now done by Son, there are only two responses, To believe God or not in risen Son after he first took away all sin on that cross in his shed blood, once for all.
This took me on, when I got to see, this done work of Son for all. I went Lord, I just sinned again and got angry over something again, what do I do?
Stop trying to stop sin, because you can't stop it, no flesh can but my Son's, who did it once for everyone to repent to me in reconciliation given them through Son Jesus.
Yeah Lord, okay, I want to, yet I am having trouble(s) (Romans 7, 8)
So go over there to the edge of this world and look over the cliff you see. I do that and see over that edge. Scary looking down.
Then I hear Jump! I reply what? No way. (God replies), Do you not trust me? Well yes God, I do! you know I do. Then jump. I reply No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am doing pretty good behaving am I not, I do not do this and or that, and am willing to learn how to not do wrong. I think I am doing the best I can.
Yeah, you are zealous
Now if you do trust me and you do willingly jump off this cliff for me in trust to me. Do you not think I will not catch you in the palm of my hand?????????????????????
Oh yes, Lord I know not how, yet that you will, Thank you, I jumped off that cliff spiritually for God to tech me new and cause me to stand, as I saw I needed to completely trust God to do it, not myself or anyone else anymore
Still learning in process, growing in God's grace as sufficient. god can do what no other can do, proof is Jesus the Son for me to not deny God ever the Father of Son
Philippians 3:12-15
Living Bible
12 I don’t mean to say I am perfect. I haven’t learned all I should even yet, but I keep working toward that day when I will finally be all that Christ saved me for and wants me to be.
13 No, dear brothers, I am still not all I should be, but I am bringing all my energies to bear on this one thing: Forgetting the past and looking forward to what lies ahead,14 I strain to reach the end of the race and receive the prize for which God is calling us up to heaven because of what Christ Jesus did for us.
15 I hope all of you who are mature Christians will see eye-to-eye with me on these things, and if you disagree on some point, I believe that God will make it plain to you—
Before the cross, I loved to get loved, if I did not love, I could not be loved
Do you see the conundrum above? there is a before and after the cross. I now love because I am loved first by God, I now forgive, because I am forgiven by God through Son on that cross, it is finished for us to do that in response, not work of self.
Today is after the cross, not before the cross. We the people are looking back at the cross as those before it, looked forward to it, Hebrews 11
Looking back, to what is now done by Son, there are only two responses, To believe God or not in risen Son after he first took away all sin on that cross in his shed blood, once for all.
This took me on, when I got to see, this done work of Son for all. I went Lord, I just sinned again and got angry over something again, what do I do?
Stop trying to stop sin, because you can't stop it, no flesh can but my Son's, who did it once for everyone to repent to me in reconciliation given them through Son Jesus.
Yeah Lord, okay, I want to, yet I am having trouble(s) (Romans 7, 8)
So go over there to the edge of this world and look over the cliff you see. I do that and see over that edge. Scary looking down.
Then I hear Jump! I reply what? No way. (God replies), Do you not trust me? Well yes God, I do! you know I do. Then jump. I reply No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am doing pretty good behaving am I not, I do not do this and or that, and am willing to learn how to not do wrong. I think I am doing the best I can.
Yeah, you are zealous
Now if you do trust me and you do willingly jump off this cliff for me in trust to me. Do you not think I will not catch you in the palm of my hand?????????????????????
Oh yes, Lord I know not how, yet that you will, Thank you, I jumped off that cliff spiritually for God to tech me new and cause me to stand, as I saw I needed to completely trust God to do it, not myself or anyone else anymore
Still learning in process, growing in God's grace as sufficient. god can do what no other can do, proof is Jesus the Son for me to not deny God ever the Father of Son
Philippians 3:12-15
Living Bible
12 I don’t mean to say I am perfect. I haven’t learned all I should even yet, but I keep working toward that day when I will finally be all that Christ saved me for and wants me to be.
13 No, dear brothers, I am still not all I should be, but I am bringing all my energies to bear on this one thing: Forgetting the past and looking forward to what lies ahead,14 I strain to reach the end of the race and receive the prize for which God is calling us up to heaven because of what Christ Jesus did for us.
15 I hope all of you who are mature Christians will see eye-to-eye with me on these things, and if you disagree on some point, I believe that God will make it plain to you—
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Again, thanks for the reply. The reason I asked the particular questions I did was so a couple of things would be considered. In Romans 1 we are told that the the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen. In creation, God made man to procreate by means of birth. He could have done so in an infinite number of ways, but He chose to do so as He did. And He chose as He did to reveal to us more about Himself and His ways. So in physical birth, there is revealed to us an understanding of spiritual birth. We can go into the many things that are revealed, but one that is pertinent to our discussion is that once conception has taken place, life has begun. And that soul will exist forever. When spiritual life occurs, that soul will exist forever with God.
I recognize there are many verses that seem to suggest that truly born from above believers can lose their salvation. But the Bible is written in such a way as man through His natural senses and understanding cannot fully grasp its meaning. For true understanding, revelation is required. That is, understanding that God alone can provide. It means something to be IN CHRIST. One can only be placed into Christ by the Spirit. And this is done when someone is saved...1 Corinthians 12:13. And there is a particular love God has for those who are in Christ that is different from His love for creation as a whole. That is, the fact that God sent His Son into the world to die is indeed a manifestation of His love. But when He comes to an individual and saves them, He has particularly manifested His affection to that particular individual. In other words, there is a difference between knowing God loves, and experiencing that love personally. One is a statement of truth. The other is the experience of that truth. Salvation is the manifestation of love of God to you. And once known, life becomes a continual pursuit to know the length, and depth, and breadth of this love.
I say all of this because just as there are verses that suggest salvation can be undone, there are just as many that say it cannot be so. The ones that suggest that it can are always related to the behavior of men. The ones that suggest it cannot are related to the actions of God. Those whose lives are centered on their own behavior see how unfaithful they are and know that they are capable of walking away from God. Those whose lives are centered in God know He is faithful and that what He has secured for us in Christ He is faithful to secure throughout eternity.
I hope you come to the latter. There is a rest for the people of God.
I recognize there are many verses that seem to suggest that truly born from above believers can lose their salvation. But the Bible is written in such a way as man through His natural senses and understanding cannot fully grasp its meaning. For true understanding, revelation is required. That is, understanding that God alone can provide. It means something to be IN CHRIST. One can only be placed into Christ by the Spirit. And this is done when someone is saved...1 Corinthians 12:13. And there is a particular love God has for those who are in Christ that is different from His love for creation as a whole. That is, the fact that God sent His Son into the world to die is indeed a manifestation of His love. But when He comes to an individual and saves them, He has particularly manifested His affection to that particular individual. In other words, there is a difference between knowing God loves, and experiencing that love personally. One is a statement of truth. The other is the experience of that truth. Salvation is the manifestation of love of God to you. And once known, life becomes a continual pursuit to know the length, and depth, and breadth of this love.
I say all of this because just as there are verses that suggest salvation can be undone, there are just as many that say it cannot be so. The ones that suggest that it can are always related to the behavior of men. The ones that suggest it cannot are related to the actions of God. Those whose lives are centered on their own behavior see how unfaithful they are and know that they are capable of walking away from God. Those whose lives are centered in God know He is faithful and that what He has secured for us in Christ He is faithful to secure throughout eternity.
I hope you come to the latter. There is a rest for the people of God.
There are two paths to rightness with God. One is to be perfect (i.e., never commit even one sin). This is the only path open for angels, since Jesus did not die for them and as a result forgiveness is not available to them. But this path is not open for mankind. The only path to rightness with God for man is obtaining His forgiveness for the sins we commit that separate us from Him.
"Salvation" speaks of being "saved" or "spared" from God's wrath. The idea that after God spares us from His wrath, He then subjects us to it again after we prove ourselves unworthy of His forgiveness is an affront to Jesus' sacrifice which was, after all, needed because we could never save ourselves from our sins in the first place.
There is no point after a person is saved that he no longer needs Christ's forgiveness/advocacy/mercy/grace. To say otherwise belies a misplaced trust in oneself and a high-minded belief that rightness with God is through obedience to His laws.
The only way to fulfil the righteous requirements of the law is to have Jesus in your heart, and His presence in you means you will never perish, you will never come under condemnation, and you have everlasting life.
"Salvation" speaks of being "saved" or "spared" from God's wrath. The idea that after God spares us from His wrath, He then subjects us to it again after we prove ourselves unworthy of His forgiveness is an affront to Jesus' sacrifice which was, after all, needed because we could never save ourselves from our sins in the first place.
There is no point after a person is saved that he no longer needs Christ's forgiveness/advocacy/mercy/grace. To say otherwise belies a misplaced trust in oneself and a high-minded belief that rightness with God is through obedience to His laws.
The only way to fulfil the righteous requirements of the law is to have Jesus in your heart, and His presence in you means you will never perish, you will never come under condemnation, and you have everlasting life.
Just as God has worked gradually throughout history, so to He works gradually to reveal truth. There will come a day when there is a unity of the faith, and history is building to a time when the knowledge of the glory of the Lord will fill the earth as the waters cover the seas. That time hasn't come yet. Until then, we press forward.
Just as God is continuing to unfold the knowledge of creation and men are becoming aware of new things about the universe from the expansion of space to the subcellular aspects of creation, so too is God continuing to give greater revelation and understanding of His wondrous salvation. The best is yet to come. Creation still has its store of wonders untold. So too does the mind of God.
Just as God is continuing to unfold the knowledge of creation and men are becoming aware of new things about the universe from the expansion of space to the subcellular aspects of creation, so too is God continuing to give greater revelation and understanding of His wondrous salvation. The best is yet to come. Creation still has its store of wonders untold. So too does the mind of God.
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once stated we are only 2000 years into Christianity, the best is yet to come and he was not talking about the Millennium.A Psalm of David.
The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2 He makes me lie down in green pastures.
He leads me beside still waters.
3 He restores my soul.
He leads me in paths of righteousness
for his name's sake.
4 Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.
5 You prepare a table before me
in the presence of my enemies;
you anoint my head with oil;
my cup overflows.
6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me
all the days of my life,
and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord
forever.
...... A good shepherd loses none of His sheep ......
The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2 He makes me lie down in green pastures.
He leads me beside still waters.
3 He restores my soul.
He leads me in paths of righteousness
for his name's sake.
4 Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.
5 You prepare a table before me
in the presence of my enemies;
you anoint my head with oil;
my cup overflows.
6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me
all the days of my life,
and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord
forever.
...... A good shepherd loses none of His sheep ......
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Just speaking to the general conversation of spiritual birth and specifically the distinction between those born of the flesh and those born of the spirit, and more specifically born of God. A human father begets, and when the Holy Spirit descended from heaven and rested on Jesus, a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son..."
And Acts 13:33 in the context of the witness of the Son's resurrection, Hebrews1:5 in the context of the Supremacy of the Son and Hebrews5:5 in the context of the Son's Priesthood, each referencing Psalm2:7
7I will proclaim the decree
spoken to Me by the LORD:
“You are My Son;
today I have become Your Father.c
Then, there is the context of Christ the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep, that is the first to be raise from the dead. Although there were others previously raised from the dead, but none raised to never see decay.
ICorinthians 15:19If our hope in Christ is for this life alone, we are to be pitied more than all men.
The Order of Resurrection
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.
Acts 26:22But I have had God’s help to this day, and I stand here to testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen: 23that the Christ would suffer, and as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to our people and to the Gentiles.”
So, if anyone could answer the question at which event was Jesus begotten, then I could get a better understanding of whether any particular individual has been/is/or will be spiritually begotten of God.
The Witness of John 1
12But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.
And Acts 13:33 in the context of the witness of the Son's resurrection, Hebrews1:5 in the context of the Supremacy of the Son and Hebrews5:5 in the context of the Son's Priesthood, each referencing Psalm2:7
7I will proclaim the decree
spoken to Me by the LORD:
“You are My Son;
today I have become Your Father.c
Then, there is the context of Christ the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep, that is the first to be raise from the dead. Although there were others previously raised from the dead, but none raised to never see decay.
ICorinthians 15:19If our hope in Christ is for this life alone, we are to be pitied more than all men.
The Order of Resurrection
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.
Acts 26:22But I have had God’s help to this day, and I stand here to testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen: 23that the Christ would suffer, and as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to our people and to the Gentiles.”
So, if anyone could answer the question at which event was Jesus begotten, then I could get a better understanding of whether any particular individual has been/is/or will be spiritually begotten of God.
The Witness of John 1
12But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.