Does anyone know of....

[Rufus]

Guys: Does it matter in our day to day life whether we have libertarian free will or whether all is predestinated? Does it affect our Christian walk at all? I would say no it does not, and that is why the biblical authors never explain the tension between predestination and free will, between God's sovereignity and man's responsibility.

Actually, I think it matters a great deal because at the end of the day we're actually talking about the Gospel of Salvation we have come to believe. And what we believe in our heart of hearts is going to have a profound affect on our every day, personal relationship and walk with God. Once one truly understands the Five Doctrines of Grace (a/k/a Calvinism), he is brought to a place of total humility because he realizes that he had absolutely nothing do with God saving him. He knows in his heart that God's salvation is nothing less than a miracle. And no one contributes to any of God's miracles.

Moreover, all the various soteriological systems or views out there are incompatible with each other. They contradict each other. So, yes, it does matter what we believe. Not all those systems are the true Gospel! I often wonder how many in Christendom believe that their faith saved them -- or an act of their "free will" saved them, etc.

 

[PaulThomson]

It was another way of saying I wonder that you and your loyal naysayers have not tried to deny what that
Scripture plainly states... this time, as you have before. I should not be surprised you do not understand.

Maybe you could clarify what 2 Cor. 2:12-14 plainly defines the natural man as.

Start your definition with, "2 Cor. 2:12-14 plainly states that the natural man IS ..."

 

[Rufus]

Maybe you could clarify what 2 Cor. 2:12-14 plainly defines the natural man as.

Start your definition with, "2 Cor. 2:12-14 plainly states that the natural man IS ..."

Probably talking about members of nudist colonies. Lovers of the au natural.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

I understand your point, however, the first objective assurance of salvation comes from the work of Christ Jesus and the His promises documented in scripture.

But only by the HEARING OF FAITH are you able to KNOW that the promises are YOURS.

 

[PaulThomson]

Guys: Does it matter in our day to day life whether we have libertarian free will or whether all is predestinated? Does it affect our Christian walk at all? I would say no it does not, and that is why the biblical authors never explain the tension between predestination and free will, between God's sovereignity and man's responsibility.

There is no tension between predestination as it is spoken of in scripture and free will as it is used in scripture. Scripture does not mean exhaustive determinism when it speaks of predestination.

 

[Komentaja]

There is no tension between predestination as it is spoken of in scripture and free will as it is used in scripture. Scripture does not mean exhaustive determinism when it speaks of predestination.

What does it mean?

 

[PaulThomson]

What does it mean?

It means to determine from some point in time that something else should happen at a future time.

 

[Rufus]

There is no tension between predestination as it is spoken of in scripture and free will as it is used in scripture. Scripture does not mean exhaustive determinism when it speaks of predestination.

Define "exhaustive determinism" and "free will", please.

 

[Lamar]

Well...the text does say that Josiah walked in ALL the ways that his father David walked". What would compel you to think that this isn't talking about all David's life instead of just his public, official or royal life? Why would you exclude David's private/personal life?

Also, you are aware that David sinned greatly in his royal capacity as Israel's king, right? So, how do you get perfect obedience to God's law out of a man who sinned in his private life and public one? Here's a wild and crazy speculation for you: Maybe this is why the bible does not teach that Josiah obeyed God's laws perfectly.

So... where is the biblical text that says that Josiah kept the law of God perfectly, which is what you claimed in your last post?

Okay...I am going to use your reasoning.

Show me chapter and verse where King Josiah did not keep the law of God perfectly, which is what you are claiming.

 

[HeIsHere]

But only by the HEARING OF FAITH are you able to KNOW that the promises are YOURS.

I am not sure what is the hearing of "faith" ... how are you using the word faith?

 

[Rufus]

Okay...I am going to use your reasoning.

Show me chapter and verse where King Josiah did not keep the law of God perfectly, which is what you are claiming.

Good grief, fellow, gird up the loins of you mind already and use your God-given brain. As far as proof for my interpretation, I provided that already. Since Josiah is being compared to king David who himself was a sinner, then logically speaking Josiah's keeping of God's law had to be as imperfect as David's was!

Now, I have a question for you: How did Jesus attain to the moral-spiritual level of sinlessness?

 

[PaulThomson]

Define "exhaustive determinism" and "free will", please.

Exhaustive determinism means that absolutely everything that was, is and will be has been foreordained.
Free will means desires that have not been foreordained. What free will does is voluntary, unforced; as were Old Testament free will offerings.

 

[Rufus]

On another thread, I believe, I had quite the exchange with either Studier (who seems to have fallen off the planet since) and/or PT over the controversial 1Tim 2:3-4 passage in which I used the larger but still more immediate context to refute the misinterpretation. But just today I ran across a John Piper article dealing with the same passage in his Ask Pastor John Podcast. A writer wrote in and asked Piper this question about the passage:

“Pastor John, hello and thank you for this podcast. First Timothy 2:3–4 says God desires all men to be saved. He desires that end. But not all men are saved. Does that mean (1) God will not do what he wants to do? Or (2) God cannot do what he wants to do? It has to be one of these two options, right?”

Piper fielded this question in an interesting manner by going outside 1Timothy to 2Timothy, and in so doing gets into a complex discussion about God's multiple wills.

While Piper brought the "wants" of God to his argument, I found it interesting that he didn't bring God's "needs" to bear in his argument. All of us know that we're often conflicted in our own decisions when we have to weigh our wants against our needs. And God does indeed have needs -- not external to himself -- but internal. We see this at the Cross of Christ. God is full of mercy and compassion and "desires all men" to be saved; yet, at the same time God could not save anyone at the expense of justice since He is a righteous God. So, Jesus, "needed" to pay the penalty for the sins of God's covenant people in order for people to be justified in God's eyes AND in order for God to preserve his own integrity -- his own Righteousness and Justice. Anyhow...I digress a bit.

Piper does go and and provide several biblical examples of how God acts even when his will is "conflicted". In all cases, I believe that whatever God decides that is his perfect will. Not only is it perfect, but it is Good. (Many times in the OT, for example, some prophet of God would tell God do what is right or good in your eyes.) But at the same time, we don't live in an Ideal world. We live in a fallen world -- a world in which God is constantly working through evil. So, while God's will is perfect in this less-than-ideal context, it's still nonetheless not his Ideal Will. For example, in the eternal, visible Kingdom, God will never have to decree or permit murder, war, lying, etc., since the Eternal Environment will be perfect holiness and righteousness. Anyhow...here is the link to the article.

https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/if-god-desires-all-to-be-saved-why-arent-they

 

[Rufus]

Exhaustive determinism means that absolutely everything that was, is and will be has been foreordained.
Free will means desires that have not been foreordained. What free will does is voluntary, unforced; as were Old Testament free will offerings.

1. What has not been foreordained?
2. "Unforced" externally, internally or both?
3. Does "voluntary" mean that man can become anything he wants/desires?