The book of Job, my favorite book.

[christophernyc]

Not his relatives but his children. So Job was already aware that there must be offerings for sin. God was definitely not "correcting" Job is any way, and it is God who said what is said in Job 1:1. Now notice this (Job 2:9,10): Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die. But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips. In chapter 3 he cursed the day in which he was born, and so would anyone else in his situation.

But God was actually establishing Job's righteousness before Satan and the heavenly host. And in the end God declared him to be righteous as we see in Ezekiel 14:14: Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

The book of Job and Job himself are so greatly misunderstood by Christians today. Not sure about commentators, and not too interested in their comments either.

Thank you. Such good commentary here. I think people get hung up on the word "repent" at the end of the story. I wrestled with it a lot, and this word seems to trigger "sin" in people's minds. Therefore, they conclude Job is in sin during this ordeal. This is too simplistic, I think, and it does not comport with other major elements in the story.

I appreicate your comments and glad to hear other voices out there like yours. Out of curiosity, what is your take on Elihu?

 

[tttallison]

Again, these are *questions* God asks Job. They are not *accusations*. Big difference. Questions provide grace. Accusations conclude condemnation.

This, too, is a huge discrepancy between God's communication with Job and Elihu's communication with Job. The very nature of how each of them are speaking to Job is completely different.

Elihu and God
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Compare these verses carefully.

Elihu said, “Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom.” Job 34:35

Elihu said, “Therefore doth Job open his mouth in vain: he multiplieth words without knowledge.” Job 35:16

Notice how the Lord repeated what Elihu had said.

The Lord said, “Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?” Job 38:2
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Compare these two verses carefully.

Elihu said, “If thou canst answer me, set they words in order before me, stand up.” Job 33:5

Notice how the Lord repeated what Elihu had said.

The Lord said, “Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.” Job 38:3
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Compare these verses of Elihu’s speech, which were spoken before the Lord spoke.

Elihu said, “Hearken unto this, O Job: stand still, and consider the wondrous works of God. Dost thou know when God disposed them, and caused the light of his cloud to shine? Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge? Job 37:14-16

The Lord said, “Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? Canst thou set the dominion therof in the earth? Canst thou lift up they voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?” Job 38:33-34
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Compare this verse of Elihu’s with a verse from the Lord.

Elihu said, “Shall even he that hateth right govern? And wilt thou condemn him that is most just?” Job 34-17

The Lord said, “Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? He that reproveth God, let him answer it.” Job 40:2
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Compare the two verses from Elihu, which were spoken before the Lord spoke.

Elihu said, “Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.” Job 32:2

Elihu said, “Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, my righteousness is more than God’s?” Job 35:2

The Lord said, “Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? Wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?” Job 40:8
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In every case Elihu said it first and the Lord repeated.

 

[tttallison]

This is so good. Thank you for laying this all out. I heartily agree with so many of these parallels you have provided here. I think we are looking at the same thing in much the same way, however, I look at it with a much different mindset.

Elihu is clearly making that connection between Job's request for a mediator and Elihu. No doubt. Elihu has been there listening to everything Job and his friends were saying, so Elihu no doubt heard Job's request. You then conclude that "Elihu is the mediator God sent", but is he? Yes, Elihu makes that *claim*, but is it true? Is there any confirmation for this anywhere else in this story? No. This idea only exists in the mouth of Elihu. Red Flag.

Later you stated, "There is no need for God to reaffirm who Elihu is. This is the answer to Job's request and Job understands it." How do you know Job understands it? How are you concluding that? Where is the evidence? If it's because Job is silent, I have other reasons for why that's the case.

I think people are deceived by Elihu. He "sounds" nice, I guess, but remember at the beginning of his speech when it says *four* times that he is full of anger. Would you want your mediator to be full of anger when they go on a long-winded speech at you? How does that make sense?

It seems Elihu is more of a svengali than any kind of true mediator. At least, he's not the real mediator Job needs.

Also, what do you think about this verse?

Job 34:36 "My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end because of his answers for wicked men."

Elihu is wishing torture upon Job. Is this the kind of person you would want to represent you in a court of law? Someone pleading for your perpetual punishment? No thanks. Yet another Red Flag.

Elihu says it is for Job's "answers like wicked men", but as we already know, God says that Job spoke rightly about God.

Christopher Greetings,

REGARDING ELIHU​

In order to vindicate Job you must sacrifice the integrity of the bible.

You have to say God gave a man six chapters of God’s book to tell lies. Would you make God the author of lies just to justify Job? In what other book of the bible do we see such lies as you are claiming?

In 1 Kings 22:22 God sent a lying spirit, and the Bible clarifies the fact that it was lying. We never hear the spirit lying, only that he was sent.

God would not let Balaam lie. It was only to his Prophets and Apostles that God gave six chapters of his word to a single man. You must explain why God would let lies, as you claim came from Elihu, enter his book. Or at the least show an example.

 

[christophernyc]

Elihu and God
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Compare these verses carefully.

Elihu said, “Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom.” Job 34:35

Elihu said, “Therefore doth Job open his mouth in vain: he multiplieth words without knowledge.” Job 35:16

Notice how the Lord repeated what Elihu had said.

The Lord said, “Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?” Job 38:2
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Compare these two verses carefully.

Elihu said, “If thou canst answer me, set they words in order before me, stand up.” Job 33:5

Notice how the Lord repeated what Elihu had said.

The Lord said, “Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.” Job 38:3
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Compare these verses of Elihu’s speech, which were spoken before the Lord spoke.

Elihu said, “Hearken unto this, O Job: stand still, and consider the wondrous works of God. Dost thou know when God disposed them, and caused the light of his cloud to shine? Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge? Job 37:14-16

The Lord said, “Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? Canst thou set the dominion therof in the earth? Canst thou lift up they voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?” Job 38:33-34
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Compare this verse of Elihu’s with a verse from the Lord.

Elihu said, “Shall even he that hateth right govern? And wilt thou condemn him that is most just?” Job 34-17

The Lord said, “Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? He that reproveth God, let him answer it.” Job 40:2
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Compare the two verses from Elihu, which were spoken before the Lord spoke.

Elihu said, “Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.” Job 32:2

Elihu said, “Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, my righteousness is more than God’s?” Job 35:2

The Lord said, “Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? Wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?” Job 40:8
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In every case Elihu said it first and the Lord repeated.

Yes, I have noticed these parallels between Elihu's speech and God's speech. It is very clear, and I think quite relevant to what is happening in the story. However, it may be for a different reason than you believe.

Aside from highlighting these parallels, the conclusion you wrote is that Elihu said it first, and then the Lord repeated it. Can you expound on that summary? Are you inferring then that we need to believe only good things about Elihu and support everything about him? How would you put into words what you are implying?

 

[tttallison]

Yes, I have noticed these parallels between Elihu's speech and God's speech. It is very clear, and I think quite relevant to what is happening in the story. However, it may be for a different reason than you believe.

Aside from highlighting these parallels, the conclusion you wrote is that Elihu said it first, and then the Lord repeated it. Can you expound on that summary? Are you inferring then that we need to believe only good things about Elihu and support everything about him? How would you put into words what you are implying?

Elihu said, Job 33:6 "I am according to your wish in God's place." Job 36:2 Suffer me a little, and I will shew thee that I have yet to speak on God's behalf. Job 36:4 For truly my words shall not be false: he that is perfect in knowledge is with thee.

Elihu words are either true, or they are all false. There is no middle ground. You are saying God gave six chapters of the word of God to a liar. You need to explain why God allowed this to happen.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

You agreed that "yes" you believe Job sinned to incur his suffering. Then you write that "sin really isn't on the table." Which is it? Do you believe Job sinned to incur his suffering or not?

That Job is a "sinner" ISN'T A QUESTION - he's human, and he's fallen short of God's glory just like you and me, so God's praise of him has to be understood in that context. Job would go to HELL for his SIN except for his FAITH that God would do something about his SIN issue (in the far distant future). However, what God was after, when He involved satan in His plan for correction, wasn't a SPECIFIC SIN, but a couple of internal Paradigmatic issues that Job had, that worked against his relationship with God, which had been EXPOSED, and Corrected after CHapter 42.

 

[christophernyc]

Christopher Greetings,

REGARDING ELIHU​

In order to vindicate Job you must sacrifice the integrity of the bible.

You have to say God gave a man six chapters of God’s book to tell lies. Would you make God the author of lies just to justify Job? In what other book of the bible do we see such lies as you are claiming?

In 1 Kings 22:22 God sent a lying spirit, and the Bible clarifies the fact that it was lying. We never hear the spirit lying, only that he was sent.

God would not let Balaam lie. It was only to his Prophets and Apostles that God gave six chapters of his word to a single man. You must explain why God would let lies, as you claim came from Elihu, enter his book. Or at the least show an example.

Thank you for your message and for discussing Elihu. I think it is vitally important, and it seems he is one of the most difficult characters in all of Scripture to understand, in my opinion. Most people are divided in their opinion of him, so thank you for having this discussion.

As for vindicating Job, I don't have to vindicate him. God vindicated him in many times in this story.

Since you asked, here is one example of a lie in another story (although I don't think this is necessary). In 1 Samuel 17:44, it says, " And the Philistine said to David, Come to me, and I will give thy flesh unto the fowls of the air, and to the beasts of the field." That is a lie. It did not happen, and David slew Goliath.

Anyway, as was written before, Elihu *claims* that Job has said he is more righteous than God. It's simply not true. Nowhere does Job say that, and when God asks Job this same kind of question, Job's answer is no. (I don't want to keep repeating it, but I refer again to chapter 9 where Job states his view of himself in the sight of God.)

Another point is that in chapter 33 Elihu dictates to Job how God speaks to man (dreams and pain). It seems Elihu does not believe God will actually speak to Job directly - and yet at the end of the story that is exactly what God does. God speaks to Job directly. It also seems Elihu is ridiculing Job for crying out to God, but God effectively answers Job's prayer by coming to him.

In 34:36 Elihu also says, "My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end because of his answers for wicked men." Elihu claims Job's answers are wicked, yet God says Job has spoken rightly about Him (God) twice in chapter 42.

In the next verse 34:37 Elihu says, "For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God." What "sin" exactly is Job adding his rebellion to? Elihu is claiming here, like Job's friends, that Job has sinned to incur his suffering - but we know Job is not suffering because of a sin he has committed. Whether or not Elihu intends to "lie" he is again clearly wrong.

There is so much more to go into with Elihu, but regarding God allowing lying, consider this passage in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Sounds like Elihu.

 

[tttallison]

Thank you for your message and for discussing Elihu. I think it is vitally important, and it seems he is one of the most difficult characters in all of Scripture to understand, in my opinion. Most people are divided in their opinion of him, so thank you for having this discussion.

As for vindicating Job, I don't have to vindicate him. God vindicated him in many times in this story.

Since you asked, here is one example of a lie in another story (although I don't think this is necessary). In 1 Samuel 17:44, it says, " And the Philistine said to David, Come to me, and I will give thy flesh unto the fowls of the air, and to the beasts of the field." That is a lie. It did not happen, and David slew Goliath.

Anyway, as was written before, Elihu *claims* that Job has said he is more righteous than God. It's simply not true. Nowhere does Job say that, and when God asks Job this same kind of question, Job's answer is no. (I don't want to keep repeating it, but I refer again to chapter 9 where Job states his view of himself in the sight of God.)

Another point is that in chapter 33 Elihu dictates to Job how God speaks to man (dreams and pain). It seems Elihu does not believe God will actually speak to Job directly - and yet at the end of the story that is exactly what God does. God speaks to Job directly. It also seems Elihu is ridiculing Job for crying out to God, but God effectively answers Job's prayer by coming to him.

In 34:36 Elihu also says, "My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end because of his answers for wicked men." Elihu claims Job's answers are wicked, yet God says Job has spoken rightly about Him (God) twice in chapter 42.

In the next verse 34:37 Elihu says, "For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God." What "sin" exactly is Job adding his rebellion to? Elihu is claiming here, like Job's friends, that Job has sinned to incur his suffering - but we know Job is not suffering because of a sin he has committed. Whether or not Elihu intends to "lie" he is again clearly wrong.

There is so much more to go into with Elihu, but regarding God allowing lying, consider this passage in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Sounds like Elihu.

Christopher everything you are saying in this post is directly related to the trustworthiness of the Bible. Are you saying the lies of Satan are within the pages of the Bible. If that were to be true, we could not trust the Bible.

You are comparing one sentence of Goliath to six chapters. We don't have to question whether Goliath was lying for we are given the answer. God does not allow a bunch of lies to be put in his word, and then just lets us guess what is true, and what is not. Otherwise, how would we trust the Word?

 

[Nehemiah6]

I appreciate your comments and glad to hear other voices out there like yours. Out of curiosity, what is your take on Elihu?

First let me address that word "repent" used by Job. Repent essentially means a change of mind. Job had only heard of God with his ears, but now he had actually seen Him, and heard Him describe His wonderful works of creation. God had designed all things meticulously and perfectly. And these were things that he "knew not" (Job 42:2,3): I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. Now that Job saw that God can do "everything" ( and therefore anything) and his calamities were a part of that, he changed his mind. But God never disclosed to him what had gone on behind the scenes.

As to Elihu, he should have remained silent. He mistakenly thought that he was speaking on behalf of God. But he had absolutely no sympathy or empathy for Job. Instead his "wrath was kindled" against Job. Yet God ignored him in the end. This is a lesson for Christians. We must not immediately conclude that believers experiencing calamities brought them down upon themselves. God has said that He will chastise every son whom He "receiveth". That is also for a purpose (Hebrews 12).

We also need to note that in all these conversations, many things were said which are perfectly true. So we need to discern those things. For example in Job 11:7 we read these words of Zophar: Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? This tells us that mere mortals cannot possibly comprehend God fully which is perfectly true. Who can explain the Holy Trinity?

 

[Clayman]

we are kind of like Jobs friends thinking we know Gods intensions?

Yea, we kinda grasp at straws trying to understand why God has done things the way He has done things.

Satan was meant to be acting in a priestly or mediating role, and maybe he was, turning up to where Job offered his sacrifices. Lucifer means bearer of light or the morning star which is a role/type of Christ, Christ being the bright morning star, yet he is acting more as an adversary, much the same as Jobs friends, Satan should have said Job acts in a righteous and blameless manner for he puts his trust in the Lord, even though Job may not have full understanding he believes the Lord will provide a way, and a way of redemption. And it seems apparent he even believed in a resurrection.

Jesus the man who is truly righteous and blameless, was examined by the law and found to be blameless, John said behold the lamb(unblemished) lamb of God. The worlds ruling powers examined Christ and Pilate said "there is no fault in Him" even God examined Him and declared to us "this is my Son, in whom I am well pleased"

Yet Satan did not think it righteous for God to lower himself and fulfil the role He was fulfilling as a man, and to suffer for us, to allow sin and to allow unrighteousness to remain in the world, when He could have immediately brought justice and rule, we underserving sinners don't deserve to put God through what the Lord went through for our sake, Jobs friends including Elihu while trying to answer why God allows sin and suffering, represent unbelievers and ok maybe even believers/peoples honest questions.

Yet we have the answers, for we see things from Jobs perspective, and while the adversaries are right on one hand, they miss the forest for the trees, and miss the most important answers, and lets face it people are still asking why does God allow suffering, why does He allow children and babes to die and suffer, and wars and so forth, and while they are fair and decent questions in the end a lot of people end up disagreeing with God their creator on how He did and does things and unwittingly side with Satan.

Yet we still agree with our creator, and the book of Job helps with that, that's what I love about the book of Job, God is righteous and merciful, loving and sovereign, we can agree with Him on everything even though others don't, we realise its free choice, and the angels even had the same choice which again brings to light the fact that we are lumps of clay to be moulded by Him.

 

[j55]

Book of job. He was persecuted.
Satan was behind it. He's after body of Christ.

Nehemiah chapter 6
To recognize enemies Tactics.
Fear
Intimidate
Lying
Persistent
Infiltrate
Slander
Deception

katheriro in Greek means - demonic. Luke chapter 4:36. Unclesn Spirit.

Akathartos in Greek means - unclean
Fake shepherds don't have holy Spirit. They have unclesn Spirit. You can't serve two masters at same time.

Methodeia in Greek means - planned attack, stealth, crafty.
Satan is the one who plans it. Has Evil Spirit go to false brethren who Carry it out.

Psalm chapter 2. False brethren pretend to be Christian people.
False brethren are spies and agents of Satan. They are spiritual bastards.

False brethren can cause extensive damage to body of Christ. They cause division. They infiltrate Body of Christ.

Satan, and false brethren are waging psychological warfare on body of Christ. False brethren are extremely dangerous.
2 Corinthians chapter 11
2 Peter chapter 2
1 Timothy chapter 4
1 John chapter 4:1

2 Timothy chapter 3. The Man of God will be persecuted.

Jesus is coming 7 th Trump. Isaiah chapter 13. Wicked go to sheol, called hell. We have the victory through Jesus.

Peace.