By God becoming a man and, therefore, visible to the world did not change the minds of the vast majority of first century sinners. What did all of Jesus' visible signs and wonders and miracles produce during his ministry? Don't you know that even if the dead should rise and appear to their non-believing relatives or friends, these people would still not be convinced of the gospel (Lk 16:30-31)? At the end of the day, it's spiritual truth that the spiritually dead cannot understand or respond to positively, apart from the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit. The dead must be raised first before faith and repentance are possible.
Gods will vs mans free will
- Thread starter jacko
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What it is or isn't isn't included in how God acts upon a person in drawing them to Himself is not so much under scrutiny as the fact that God does indeed act upon a person in drawing them to Himself... a fact some in fact deny, and some of those same people further claim that it is unfair/unjust of God to do one thing for one person and not do the exact same thing for another, which leads me to conclude such people have not read their Bibles at all, because God has repeatedly acted in various ways towards different people, and this is blatantly obvious in Scripture. Some have basically said God is an unjust tyrant kidnapping people against their will to unilaterally act on them.
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● John 1:9 . . That was the true light, which lighteth every man that cometh
into the world.
It's not easy to be an atheist; it's hard work. The reason being that nature
itself preaches a divine sermon that's nigh unto impossible to ignore.
● Ps 19:1-4 . .The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the
work of His hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night
they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is
not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of
the world.
FAQ: What's that to do with people born blind and have never, and will
never, be able to look up?
REPLY: Sight isn't essential; not when folks have a head on their shoulders
capable of doing some thinking. In other words: there is a lot more to nature
than only celestial objects and weather systems.
● Rom 1:19-20 . .What may be known about God is plain to them, because
God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's
invisible qualities --His eternal power and divine nature-- have been clearly
seen, being understood from what has been made.
Out ahead in the future, an angel will go 'round the world broadcasting a
message called the everlasting gospel. It's pretty basic, and in point of fact
doesn't mention Jesus even once. Here's the text from Rev 14:6-7.
"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting
gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and
kindred, and tongue, and people, announcing with a loud voice: Fear God,
and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship
him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."
The everlasting gospel is a bounce from the very first chapter of Genesis. It's
very elementary; pretty much all it says is:
1» There's a supreme being.
2» He deserves respect.
3» There's a frightful reckoning looming on the horizon, and
4» The cosmos— all of its forms of life, matter, and energy —is the product
of intelligent design.
The everlasting gospel is timeless, and its points are as valid in our day as
they were in the past, and as they will be in the days ahead.
FAQ: How is God due glory?
REPLY: Glory can be defined as high renown and/or honor won by notable
achievements, viz: accolades. Well; speaking for myself; I have to say that
the successful invention, design, and construction of the cosmos, with all of
its forms of life, matter, and energy, is quite an achievement and speaks of
the capability of a supreme genius that deserves applause and admiration.
NOTE: The Bible says that it's a fool who talks himself into believing there is
no God. Well; I have to admit it's very difficult for me to think of my two
favorite scientists-- Neil deGrasse Tyson and Carl Sagan --as idiots but what
am I to do when the supreme being's opinion trumps everyone else's
opinion; including theirs?
_
● John 1:9 . . That was the true light, which lighteth every man that cometh
into the world.
It's not easy to be an atheist; it's hard work. The reason being that nature
itself preaches a divine sermon that's nigh unto impossible to ignore.
● Ps 19:1-4 . .The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the
work of His hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night
they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is
not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of
the world.
FAQ: What's that to do with people born blind and have never, and will
never, be able to look up?
REPLY: Sight isn't essential; not when folks have a head on their shoulders
capable of doing some thinking. In other words: there is a lot more to nature
than only celestial objects and weather systems.
● Rom 1:19-20 . .What may be known about God is plain to them, because
God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's
invisible qualities --His eternal power and divine nature-- have been clearly
seen, being understood from what has been made.
Out ahead in the future, an angel will go 'round the world broadcasting a
message called the everlasting gospel. It's pretty basic, and in point of fact
doesn't mention Jesus even once. Here's the text from Rev 14:6-7.
"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting
gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and
kindred, and tongue, and people, announcing with a loud voice: Fear God,
and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship
him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."
The everlasting gospel is a bounce from the very first chapter of Genesis. It's
very elementary; pretty much all it says is:
1» There's a supreme being.
2» He deserves respect.
3» There's a frightful reckoning looming on the horizon, and
4» The cosmos— all of its forms of life, matter, and energy —is the product
of intelligent design.
The everlasting gospel is timeless, and its points are as valid in our day as
they were in the past, and as they will be in the days ahead.
FAQ: How is God due glory?
REPLY: Glory can be defined as high renown and/or honor won by notable
achievements, viz: accolades. Well; speaking for myself; I have to say that
the successful invention, design, and construction of the cosmos, with all of
its forms of life, matter, and energy, is quite an achievement and speaks of
the capability of a supreme genius that deserves applause and admiration.
NOTE: The Bible says that it's a fool who talks himself into believing there is
no God. Well; I have to admit it's very difficult for me to think of my two
favorite scientists-- Neil deGrasse Tyson and Carl Sagan --as idiots but what
am I to do when the supreme being's opinion trumps everyone else's
opinion; including theirs?
_
Actually "nature" is quite easy to ignore. It comes naturally to the natural man. If Mr. Webers would have read from v. 18 in Romans 1, he would have learned:
Rom 1:18, 22, 28
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,...21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles... 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator — who is forever praised. Amen....28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
NIV
So what does this passage tell us:?
1. Men willingly suppress the truth in unrighteousness
2. Men became futile in their thinking and their foolish hearts were darkened
3. They willingly exchanged the truth for a lie
4. They did not think it worthwhile to retain God in their consciousness
5. So men became worshipers of the creation rather than the Creator
And that was the story of the ancient world and it's still the same ol' story today! Men are just as much idol worshipers today as were their ancient ancestors.
And how many antediluvians in Noah's day took heed of God's Natural Revelation?
There's nothing difficult at all about doing what comes naturally.
Rom 1:18, 22, 28
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,...21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles... 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator — who is forever praised. Amen....28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
NIV
So what does this passage tell us:?
1. Men willingly suppress the truth in unrighteousness
2. Men became futile in their thinking and their foolish hearts were darkened
3. They willingly exchanged the truth for a lie
4. They did not think it worthwhile to retain God in their consciousness
5. So men became worshipers of the creation rather than the Creator
And that was the story of the ancient world and it's still the same ol' story today! Men are just as much idol worshipers today as were their ancient ancestors.
And how many antediluvians in Noah's day took heed of God's Natural Revelation?
There's nothing difficult at all about doing what comes naturally.
Absolutely.
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth Isaiah 45:22 (KJV)
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:14-15 (KJV)
And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. Num 21:8 (KJV)
God provided for everyone.
That had nothing to do directly with individuals' eternal salvations. "Let my people go" was/is not the way of salvation.
Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Romans 9:17 (KJV)
The Exodus was the deliverance of God's chosen earthly people-group, who carried the Messiah and a light to the Gentiles, to carry on His earthly purpose. God's earthly purpose, in turn, is His intervening in history for the sake of all individuals, that they may be saved.
Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. Romans 15:11 (KJV)
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth Isaiah 45:22 (KJV)
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:14-15 (KJV)
And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. Num 21:8 (KJV)
God provided for everyone.
That had nothing to do directly with individuals' eternal salvations. "Let my people go" was/is not the way of salvation.
Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Romans 9:17 (KJV)
The Exodus was the deliverance of God's chosen earthly people-group, who carried the Messiah and a light to the Gentiles, to carry on His earthly purpose. God's earthly purpose, in turn, is His intervening in history for the sake of all individuals, that they may be saved.
Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. Romans 15:11 (KJV)
Something about these verses I saw all wrong before and recently had brought to my attention was me thinking that when Paul wrote this he was talking about the atheist when he said "Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools", and I just kind of laid it over what I see today, but he is speaking to believers about believers in these letters. There weren't really atheist back then in the way we think of them anyway, but he was speaking to and about people who did believe in God when he wrote this. I'm not correcting you at all, or even trying to add to your points here, I just wanted to share this because I've mostly seen this verse used towards the atheist these days and it was something He opened my eyes to recently and I just wanted to share it.
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You're quite wrong, sir, about the Exodus event. God did REDEEM (as in "save" )his chosen people from their physical bondage to Pharaoh. The entire point to the Exodus it that it serves as a TYPE of the true, eternal, spiritual salvation. And for your info, the Israelites had nothing to do with their deliverance out of Egypt. God "came down" and rescued them through his servant Moses. And God redeemed only his chosen people -- only the descendants of Abraham. He did not redeem any of the Egyptians.
God invites people to Christ through the outward call of the gospel, but no one would be saved if God didn't raise them up from the dead first. God is not merely a potential savior. He actually saves his chosen people!
God invites people to Christ through the outward call of the gospel, but no one would be saved if God didn't raise them up from the dead first. God is not merely a potential savior. He actually saves his chosen people!
I don't share your view above. Yes, Paul is writing to believers about different groups of people in his complex epistle. Sometime he addresses specifically Jewish and Gentile believers. At other times only one of these groups. And sometimes he refers to only unbelievers. We must remember that Romans 1 begins the section whereby Paul eventually indicts the entire human race of sin in Rom 3.
Oh...so they actively participated in GOD'S RESCUE Mission even though they grumbled and complained about how life became so much harder after Moses came unto the scene? They helped God to rescue them? The ancient Israelites actually had something to boast about, did they? But doesn't you understanding beg the question big time? Would the ancient Hebrews been able to walk out of Egypt apart from God rescuing them? Yes or no? Who made the DIFFERENCE between success and failure their redemption: God, the Israelites or both?
P.S. if you read 1Tim very carefully in the larger context, you'll find that "all men" are the Gentiles to whom Paul was sent to preach the gospel. Therefore, "all" is used in the passage in the limited sense; for it is referring to Gentiles. Paul a Jew is writing to another Jewish believer assuring him that God saves the Gentiles as well.
P.S. if you read 1Tim very carefully in the larger context, you'll find that "all men" are the Gentiles to whom Paul was sent to preach the gospel. Therefore, "all" is used in the passage in the limited sense; for it is referring to Gentiles. Paul a Jew is writing to another Jewish believer assuring him that God saves the Gentiles as well.
"But you will see me opposing the idea that man has a will that is free, for that goes directly against what Scripture says on the matter."
So agree with that Magenta, most people seem to believe they do but if you think about it, what on earth do we truly have free will in right now? I hear so much about it but don't think it exists and yes, it's impossible for us to achieve salvation ourselves. Think it was Paul who said that he had to lead his body as a slave despite being saved, the Puritan John Owen wrote several books on how difficult it is for the newly saved.
Apologies for the delay, had to put my reply on hold as my neighbour needed a hand. All sorted and Mr Sandman is calling me, hugs and blessings for now.
So agree with that Magenta, most people seem to believe they do but if you think about it, what on earth do we truly have free will in right now? I hear so much about it but don't think it exists and yes, it's impossible for us to achieve salvation ourselves. Think it was Paul who said that he had to lead his body as a slave despite being saved, the Puritan John Owen wrote several books on how difficult it is for the newly saved.
Apologies for the delay, had to put my reply on hold as my neighbour needed a hand. All sorted and Mr Sandman is calling me, hugs and blessings for now.
I have no difficulty in seeing fallen mankind in light of the scriptures. The unregenerate are dead, therefore, in a helpless state. But I find it telling that you couldn't answer my simple question re who ultimately made the difference in Exodus rescue mission: God, the Israelites or both? It seems that your pride won't allow to give the only correct answer there is -- correct and biblical I might add. Everywhere in scripture God alone is given the credit for delivering the ancient Israelites from their bondage to Pharaoh. It appears you cannot bring yourself to that place of humility.
Scripture teaches that!
1 Tim 2:1-7
2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men — the testimony given in its proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle — I am telling the truth, I am not lying — and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
NIV
You should try reading the scriptures without all the presuppositional baggage you bring to passages. Paul clearly reveals his mind here in terms of who he means by "all men". Verse 7 qualifies (identifies and limits) "all men" to the Gentiles to whom God sent him to preach the gospel.
The same with 1Tim 410. God is the savior of [all] believers from ALL tribes, tongues, families, nations, ethnicities (see Rev 5 and 7. also). You should learn to interpret scripture in its three-fold context: Macro, Intermediate and Immediate. Then you'll get things right for a change. The "all men" in this verse should be understood in light of the passage above. God is the savior of Gentiles (all men), especially those who believe.
Scripture teaches that!
1 Tim 2:1-7
2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men — the testimony given in its proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle — I am telling the truth, I am not lying — and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
NIV
You should try reading the scriptures without all the presuppositional baggage you bring to passages. Paul clearly reveals his mind here in terms of who he means by "all men". Verse 7 qualifies (identifies and limits) "all men" to the Gentiles to whom God sent him to preach the gospel.
The same with 1Tim 410. God is the savior of [all] believers from ALL tribes, tongues, families, nations, ethnicities (see Rev 5 and 7. also). You should learn to interpret scripture in its three-fold context: Macro, Intermediate and Immediate. Then you'll get things right for a change. The "all men" in this verse should be understood in light of the passage above. God is the savior of Gentiles (all men), especially those who believe.
I understand who the letter was written to, but that does not change what I said earlier. Paul, all throughout Romans, shifts his remarks to/about different groups of people as he develops his various arguments.. And the church in Rome did not consist of only Jewish believers. The book of Acts tells us this.