Asking the Father for his Spirit.

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sawdust

Active member
Feb 12, 2024
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Darwin, NT
#61
but there remain Christians who can speak in tongues today. I don't believe what you are saying is quite accurate.
Are there? Where? I've never heard them. All I've heard is babble. Tongues are actual languages and they must be languages that can be understood by at least one of the hearers if there is no interpreter. They are not just sounds.

Tongues are a sign gift. Their purpose is to point to something. Paul quoted Isaiah to show what their purpose was, ie. to witness to a people who would not listen, hence they are for unbelievers.

We must be guided by what scripture says, not by what we see happening or think we see happening.
 

jacko

Active member
Sep 2, 2024
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#62
Are there? Where? I've never heard them. All I've heard is babble. Tongues are actual languages and they must be languages that can be understood by at least one of the hearers if there is no interpreter. They are not just sounds.

Tongues are a sign gift. Their purpose is to point to something. Paul quoted Isaiah to show what their purpose was, ie. to witness to a people who would not listen, hence they are for unbelievers.

We must be guided by what scripture says, not by what we see happening or think we see happening.

Maybe it’s not for you to hear? But for their own spiritual communications with God through the spirit; private prayer.
 
Feb 12, 2024
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Darwin, NT
#63
Maybe it’s not for you to hear? But for their own spiritual communications with God through the spirit; private prayer.
That is the very thing Paul told us it is not for private use.

1 Corinthians 14:22
Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers;

1Cor.14:20&21
20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.
21 In the law it is written:
“With men of other tongues and other lips
I will speak to this people;
And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,”

Paul clearly sates the purpose of tongues in this passage. It is not a private prayer language.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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#64
Except these disciples were not believing in Jesus Christ because they had not heard the Gospel (Acts 19). As for the Acts 8 crowd, at least one was not believing and whose heart was not right with God. Is this why the Lord held out on His promise and waited on the arrival of Peter and John, two disciples who knew the lord better as they were quite often privy to things the other disciples were not?

Prior to Pentecost, believers did not automatically receive the Holy Spirit which is why Jesus said one could ask. The reason for this is because Jesus had not been glorified.

John 7:38&39
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.


Jesus promised to send the Spirit upon His departure and the Lord always keeps His promise. If one has not heard or believed the Gospel then one does not receive the Spirit.

There was an expectation of receiving the Spirit on believing the Gospel as Paul points out in Acts 19.

Acts 19:2
he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

... and Peter in Acts 2

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The question remains, if one does not receive the Spirit when they believe, are they truly believing the Gospel or do they even know what the Gospel is?

As far as signs and wonders accompanying the baptism of the Spirit, we must remember when God does a new thing, signs and wonders are prolific. The Exodus or Christ's ministry for example and now He is establishing the Church so, it is not surprising to see bold and amazing things happen. This is not to say these things cannot happen nowadays but the one thing common to all believers is a changed life. This is the greatest sign of God's work in pouring out the Spirit.
The point is Paul's question, in and of itself, refutes the idea that everyone receives the Holy Ghost automatically upon belief in the gospel message.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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#65
Speaking in tongues was given to reveal to unbelieving Jews they had rejected their Messiah. It is no longer necessary today as Israel was judged for their rejection (the fall of Jerusalem) and now wait for the end times when the Lord will restore them.

1Cor.14:20-22
20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.
21 In the law it is written:
“With men of other tongues and other lips
I will speak to this people;
And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,”
says the Lord.
22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.

Paul makes it clear the purpose of tongues was for unbelievers. It is a sign gift which, means it is pointing to something as that is what signs do.
Believers understand they will speak in tongues when the Holy Ghost comes to dwell inside. Whereas in the case of unbelievers, tongues has the ability to draw them to the truth.

How do you suppose Philip and the Samaritans knew they had not received the Holy Ghost? (Acts 8:12-17)

Also, The individuals in Acts 19 did not automatically receive the Holy Ghost upon hearing the gospel. The 12 received the Holy Ghost, as revealed through speaking in tongues, after Paul laid hand upon them.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,220
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#66
...

We must be guided by what scripture says, not by what we see happening or think we see happening.
Maybe it’s not for you to hear? But for their own spiritual communications with God through the spirit; private prayer.
Be guided by scripture. Rightly dividing the word reveals:
1. Upon being indwelt by the Holy Spirit individuals speak in tongues as initially revealed in Acts 2:4, 33. And further confirmed in scripture. (10:43-48, 19:1-7)

2. The Spiritual gift of tongues is but one that can flow from those who have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit. This gift is for edification of the church body. The message given by God is spoken in an unknown tongue. The message is then spoken in the known language by a person via the gift of interpretation. Both speaking in tongues and the interpretation are miraculous manifestations of the Spirit. (1 Cor. 12)

3. Those indwelt by the Spirit pray in unknown tongues. Paul referenced this in 1 Cor. 14:2, 4, 14-15, and said do not stop people from speaking in tongues. (verse 39)


I did not understand there was a distinction until God used me to speak a message in tongues in a church setting. The two experiences definitely differ. I know this to be true because I speak in tongues in prayer on a regular basis, whereas the tongues experience in church happened only one time years ago.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,220
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#67
That is the very thing Paul told us it is not for private use.

1 Corinthians 14:22
Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers;

1Cor.14:20&21
20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.
21 In the law it is written:
“With men of other tongues and other lips
I will speak to this people;
And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,”

Paul clearly sates the purpose of tongues in this passage. It is not a private prayer language.
The scripture you reference does not negate the other things Paul reveals in the same chapter. One of which is the manifestation of speaking in unknown tongues in prayer.
"For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful." 1 Cor 14:14
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." 1 Cor. 14:2
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." 1 Cor. 14:15
 
Sep 2, 2024
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#68
That is the very thing Paul told us it is not for private use.

1 Corinthians 14:22
Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers;

1Cor.14:20&21
20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.
21 In the law it is written:
“With men of other tongues and other lips
I will speak to this people;
And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,”

Paul clearly sates the purpose of tongues in this passage. It is not a private prayer language.


My point is ithat there are many who are stilll blessed with tongues.
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
1,753
618
113
#69
Luke 18:19

King James Version

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

God is good, if you ask him for his Spirit he will give it to you.

(this is from BibleGateway, I think)
Luke 11:13. You know its one of those things if your in a few or allot of Christian forums that oddly like faith never get talked about much if ever. Oh we will touch John 3:16-17 Rom 10:9-10 endlessly but say Luke 11:13. Its just odd to me how Jesus said John 3:16-17 and Luke 11:13. Well really it was GOD that said it. So I believe confess with my mouth John 3:16-17 and Luke 11:13 and YES He said you shall receive power after? The 12/120 men and women there .. already saved yet how odd were told to wait for the promise. Hmm what was it Christ asked the Father do to? Father according to your word Luke 11:13 I ask for the holy Spirit.. PRAISE YOU FATHER.. I thank you for giving me the sweet sweet holy Spirit.
 
Feb 12, 2024
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Darwin, NT
#70
The point is Paul's question, in and of itself, refutes the idea that everyone receives the Holy Ghost automatically upon belief in the gospel message.
Quite the opposite, Paul's question anticipates one to have the Spirit if one believes otherwise why ask? If you know they won't have the Spirit, there is no need to ask the question.

Believers understand they will speak in tongues when the Holy Ghost comes to dwell inside. Whereas in the case of unbelievers, tongues has the ability to draw them to the truth.

How do you suppose Philip and the Samaritans knew they had not received the Holy Ghost? (Acts 8:12-17)

Also, The individuals in Acts 19 did not automatically receive the Holy Ghost upon hearing the gospel. The 12 received the Holy Ghost, as revealed through speaking in tongues, after Paul laid hand upon them.
Only believers who do not understand the purpose of tongues will be deceived into thinking they have to speak in tongues in order to know they have the Spirit. Tongues is a sign to unbelievers which they refuse to hear, so no, it does not lead them to the truth.

1 Corinthians 14:21
In the law it is written: “With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,” says the Lord.

And it is taken from here:

Is.28:11&12
For with stammering lips and another tongue
He will speak to this people,
12 To whom He said, “This is the rest with which
You may cause the weary to rest,”
And, “This is the refreshing”;
Yet they would not hear.


Who said the Acts 8 crowd didn't know? Simon thought the laying on of hands was the way to get the Spirit and great power too. It's what happens when you don't know the promises of God and trust Him to deliver on His word.


You keep taking two instances when the laying on of hands was involved yet ignore the countless believers who received the Spirit without any sign or function of another except the preaching of the Gospel. Why is that?

Be guided by scripture. Rightly dividing the word reveals:
1. Upon being indwelt by the Holy Spirit individuals speak in tongues as initially revealed in Acts 2:4, 33. And further confirmed in scripture. (10:43-48, 19:1-7)

2. The Spiritual gift of tongues is but one that can flow from those who have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit. This gift is for edification of the church body. The message given by God is spoken in an unknown tongue. The message is then spoken in the known language by a person via the gift of interpretation. Both speaking in tongues and the interpretation are miraculous manifestations of the Spirit. (1 Cor. 12)

3. Those indwelt by the Spirit pray in unknown tongues. Paul referenced this in 1 Cor. 14:2, 4, 14-15, and said do not stop people from speaking in tongues. (verse 39)


I did not understand there was a distinction until God used me to speak a message in tongues in a church setting. The two experiences definitely differ. I know this to be true because I speak in tongues in prayer on a regular basis, whereas the tongues experience in church happened only one time years ago.
1. To what purpose did they speak in tongues? You keep ignoring the purpose.
2. Again you ignore the purpose. It was a sign to unbelieving Jews they were rejecting their Messiah and would be severely disciplined just as they were in Isaiah's day by the Assyrians. This time it would be by Rome in 70AD.
3. Again, it's purpose is not prayer. The reality is, when a believer spoke in tongues it was an unknown language to them and if there were no hearers in the vicinity who spoke that language or if there was no interpreter, Paul basically told them to shut up. There are not two different types of tongue gifts. That is the folly of not dividing the word within context. The gifts were not given for self edification and our experience is not what we measure scripture by.

The gift ceased being given in 70AD for Israel the nation had their last call and it was no longer necessary to give them a sign.
 
Feb 12, 2024
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Darwin, NT
#71
My point is ithat there are many who are stilll blessed with tongues.
And my point is they're being deceived. I can teach anyone to speak in the tongues (so called) of today. It is merely emotion put into sound bytes.

The biblical tongues were actual known languages, although not known to the speaker. Christians sin but we wouldn't argue it is valid just because it happens. Therefore why consider the gift valid because some babble away and call it tongues?

Scripture is the foundation for our doctrine, not people's experience.
 
Feb 12, 2024
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Darwin, NT
#72
The scripture you reference does not negate the other things Paul reveals in the same chapter. One of which is the manifestation of speaking in unknown tongues in prayer.
"For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful." 1 Cor 14:14
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." 1 Cor. 14:2
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." 1 Cor. 14:15
It doesn't negate, it puts it into context. Paul's message to those who think they can use tongues willy nilly or to bless themselves is ... grow up!

1 Corinthians 14:20
Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.