The rapture? The comimg of Christ.

[Stokie]

What scripture speaks of this conversion during the trib?

“Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7‬:‭13‬-‭17‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/114/rev.7.13-17.NKJV

So, if the raptured are taken before the tribulation there are a great many who turn to Christ during it. I’d imagine quite a few family members, friends, work colleagues etc who doubted us as Christians will realise we were right all along. Probably quite a few from Israel too. Sadly, there will be much suffering for them first.

 

[TMS]

Evidently, as far as you are concerned,
3-1/2 years = 7 years.

Dan 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week.

Jesus was there in person for 3 and a half years and the Holy Spirit was in those that preached Jesus.

Joh 14:25-26
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

For the last week Israel had Jesus confirm the covenant...

"and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate"

In the midst of the last week the sacrifice and oblation ceased.

The word oblation = Strong's Definition: From an unused root meaning to apportion, that is, bestow ; a donation ; euphemistically tribute ; specifically a sacrificial offering (usually bloodless and voluntary): - gift, oblation, (meat) offering, present, sacrifice.

The blood of Jesus made the sacrifices void.

The 70th week has come and gone.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

exactly. The entire 70 weeks is all about Israel, to make Israel see that Jesus was and is the one they were waiting for.

Right.

And the Daniel 9:24-27 "time-prophecy" is WRITTEN SEQUENTIALLY.


That means, this is the SEQUENCE:

1) "FROM... UNTO the Messiah the Prince... seven Weeks/sevens and threescore and two Weeks/sevens" (69 Weeks/sevens total--which CONCLUDED on what we call "Palm Sunday," when Jesus SAID the words in Lk19:42-44 [ABOUT JERUSALEM/THE CITY] and DID the Zech9:9 thing [ALSO ABOUT THE CITY/JERUSALEM--the very subject of this "time-prophecy"!;
NOTE ALSO that this was the very day that they were to SELECT THE LAMB [Ex12:2,5,6] to EXAMINE for four "DAYS" before they would sacrifice it);


2) "AFTER 62 Weeks/sevens [the 69 Weeks total to this point], shall Messiah be CUT OFF, but not for himself" (mere days AFTER the 69 Weeks total concluded);


3) [AFTER the Messiah is "CUT OFF,"] "the people OF [the prince THAT SHALL COME/COMING] shall DESTROY the city and the sanctuary..." (the 70ad events... that Jesus also spoke about in that same Lk19:42-44 passage [said on Palm Sunday], as well as in Matt22:7... and in a few verses of His Olivet Discourse [Mt24:2 / Mk13:2 / Lk21:6...], etc);
Also, 1Jn2:18 says, "...as YE HAVE HEARD that antichrist IS COMING" (where this phrase "YE HAVE HEARD" speaks elsewhere to "things already referred to in the OT"--see this used several times in Mt5--so this REFERS BACK to the OT mention of a "COMING" of such person [i.e. Dan9:26b]... so as of the writing of 1John, this person [/antichrist] still had NOT YET done his "COMING" thing);


4) [here's is where several "UNTIL" passages in the NT come in... "blindness [/a hardening] in part is happened to Israel UNTIL..."; "ye shall not see Me henceforth TILL..."; "whom it behooves heaven to receive UNTIL..."; "...led away captive into all the nations; [and Jerusalem shall be TRODDEN DOWN OF the Gentiles UNTIL...]"; etc etc--This corresponds with Dan9's "desolaTIONS [PLURAL] are determined"];


5) "the prince that SHALL COME / COMING" (AFTER the 70ad events SEQUENTIALLY [not immediately]) is the one who will do the "confirm the covenant with the many FOR ONE WEEK/seven [7 yrs]" (this corresponds with ALL other related passages on THIS subject--which I won't get into all that for this post... but just to say that the "chronology" PERFECTLY ALIGNS in each case--and which makes it impossible for it to have been concluded in 70ad [let alone, 32ad or 35ad or 37ad, or the like])

 

[Cameron143]

If the Antichrist cannot be revealed until the restrainer is taken out of the way, who is the restrainer ?

The first strainer used again.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The restrainer is Michael.

"the one restraining at present" stops restraining WELL-PRIOR TO the Dan12:1 MID-point (of the Trib yrs); I know that many base their idea of Michael being "the one restraining" because they think they see this as happening in Dan12:1;


... but the man of sin will be "revealed" WELL BEFORE the MID-point of the Trib (MID-point: when he does the "who SITTETH in the temple of God" thing, 2Th2:4b)...; No[!], he's "revealed" much EARLIER, when he does the "whose COMING / ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PRESENCE / PAROUSIA" thing (2Th2:9a)!

Those are NOT the same points in time.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

3) [AFTER the Messiah is "CUT OFF,"] "the people OF [the prince THAT SHALL COME/COMING] shall DESTROY the city and the sanctuary..." (the 70ad events... that Jesus also spoke about in that same Lk19:42-44 passage [said on Palm Sunday], as well as in Matt22:7... and in a few verses of His Olivet Discourse [Mt24:2 / Mk13:2 / Lk21:6...], etc);

EDIT: I should have also included, "Luke 21:12-24a,b" (re: the 70ad events) of His Olivet Discourse (also)





[... was in too much of a rush, when making that post... lol]

 

[cv5]

Right.
but just to say that the "chronology" PERFECTLY ALIGNS in each case--and which makes it impossible for it to have been concluded in 70ad [let alone, 32ad or 35ad or 37ad, or the like])

Absolutely correct. There is no alternative that accounts for all of the Biblical passages and historical facts.

What's more, the detractors/deniers have no answer to this passage. Since the Resurrection and Ascencion, there is ZERO historical record of ANY covenant made between ANY ruler and Israel/Jerusalem. It's as if God made sure that there was only ONE correct eschatological solution. One single solitary verse wipes out these bizarre alternative theories.

Dan 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Cameron143]

Absolutely correct. There is no alternative that accounts for all of the Biblical passages and historical facts.

What's more, the detractors/deniers have no answer to this passage. Since the Resurrection and Ascencion, there is ZERO historical record of ANY covenant made between ANY ruler and Israel/Jerusalem. It's as if God made sure that there was only ONE correct eschatological solution. One single solitary verse wipes out these bizarre alternative theories.

Dan 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

He is Jesus. The covenant confirmed is the new covenant. The abominations are the rejection of Christ and ongoing sacrifice. The consummation is 70 AD. That which was determined is found in Deuteronomy and reiterated in Revelation. The desolate are unbelieving Israel.

 

[cv5]

He is Jesus. The covenant confirmed is the new covenant. The abominations are the rejection of Christ and ongoing sacrifice. The consummation is 70 AD. That which was determined is found in Deuteronomy and reiterated in Revelation. The desolate are unbelieving Israel.

That is just an indigestible word salad buddy.
Same as the rest. Makes zero sense, and not supposed to.

 

[Cameron143]

That is just an indigestible word salad buddy.
Same as the rest. Makes zero sense, and not supposed to.

Because you don't see the connection of prophecy and Christ and neither do you understand the relationship of Deuteronomy to Revelation. What I gave was an answer to nearly every element of the verse.
Why do you suppose Daniel was told to seal up his vision, but John was told to publish his?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Why do you suppose Daniel was told to seal up his vision, but John was told to publish his?

Here's why... as I see it:

"6But we speak wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to naught. 7But we speak in a mystery, the wisdom of God having been hidden, which God foreordained before the ages for our glory, 8which none of the rulers of this age has understood [perfect indicative]. For if they had understood it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." - 1Cor2:8


There were SOME things which necessarily had to remain "hidden" prior to the Cross (for the reason spoken of in verse 8 ^ );







For one example, what [or, one thing] Jesus Himself DID NOT "KNOW" during His earthly ministry BEFORE the Cross/His death (Matt24:36, etc), He then KNEW PERFECTLY after His resurrection / ascension... and then some 60+ years LATER, He *DISCLOSED* that very information in Revelation including very meticulous "timing" details spelled out therein (and Rev1:1 in fact says, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO his servants..."--the very thing He HADN'T "know[n]" during His earthly ministry... but now "KNOWS" [since His resurrection / ascension] and has disclosed there, in Rev);


whereas Daniel's writing, as you say, was to be sealed... "even to the time of the end". And I'm saying, because of what 1Cor2:8 gives reason regarding: "[re: "having been HIDDEN...] ... For IF THEY HAD understood it, THEY WOULD NOT have crucified the Lord of glory."

(And of course it was God's plan for Him to be crucified. So God keeping SOME THINGS "HIDDEN" [prior to the Cross] served that purpose.)

 

[Cameron143]

Here's why... as I see it:

"6But we speak wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to naught. 7But we speak in a mystery, the wisdom of God having been hidden, which God foreordained before the ages for our glory, 8which none of the rulers of this age has understood [perfect indicative]. For if they had understood it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." - 1Cor2:8


There were SOME things which necessarily had to remain "hidden" prior to the Cross (for the reason spoken of in verse 8 ^ );







For one example, what [or, one thing] Jesus Himself DID NOT "KNOW" during His earthly ministry BEFORE the Cross/His death (Matt24:36, etc), He then KNEW PERFECTLY after His resurrection / ascension... and then some 60+ years LATER, He *DISCLOSED* that very information in Revelation including very meticulous "timing" details spelled out therein (and Rev1:1 in fact says, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO his servants..."--the very thing He HADN'T "know[n]" during His earthly ministry... but now "KNOWS" [since His resurrection / ascension] and has disclosed there, in Rev);


whereas Daniel's writing, as you say, was to be sealed... "even to the time of the end". And I'm saying, because of what 1Cor2:8 gives reason regarding: "[re: "having been HIDDEN...] ... For IF THEY HAD understood it, THEY WOULD NOT have crucified the Lord of glory."

(And of course it was God's plan for Him to be crucified. So God keeping SOME THINGS "HIDDEN" [prior to the Cross] served that purpose.)

It was sealed because its time was not yet. John writes because the time was come.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It was sealed because its time was not yet. John writes because the time was come.

It wasn't time for "the things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS" (v.1);

I believe you are mis-reading the text.

What it was "time" for, was the WRITING to be read (and heard) by the 7 churches (and [7x]"what the Spirit saith unto the churchES" even beyond those seven local churches); what I believe you are doing is CONFLATING what v.3 is saying with that which v.1's point is conveying (they are NOT IDENTICAL THINGS / IDEAS, as you seem to be wanting to equate them--according to your usual LIST of verses [Rev] that you believe are making the same point, but which are not).



Hope that helps.

 

[Cameron143]

It wasn't time for "the things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS" (v.1);

I believe you are mis-reading the text.

What it was "time" for, was the WRITING to be read (and heard) by the 7 churches (and [7x]"what the Spirit saith unto the churchES" even beyond those seven local churches); what I believe you are doing is CONFLATING what v.3 is saying with that which v.1's point is conveying (they are NOT IDENTICAL THINGS / IDEAS, as you seem to be wanting to equate them--according to your usual LIST of verses [Rev] that you believe are making the same point, but which are not).



Hope that helps.

Sure it helps. At hand probably means in hardness also.

 

[cv5]

It was sealed because its time was not yet. John writes because the time was come.

And what exactly is this "time" you're speaking of?
Please provide a date.

 

[Cameron143]

And what exactly is this "time" you're speaking of?
Please provide a date.

Daniel was writing about something in the distant future. So the prophecy was sealed up. John was writing about the same thing basically, but no need to seal it because what he was writing what would soon come to pass.

 

[ewq1938]

“Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7‬:‭13‬-‭17‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/114/rev.7.13-17.NKJV

https://bible.com/bible/114/rev.7.13-17.NKJV

Those came from great tribulation in their lives, not from "the" GT as in the time the Ac reigns. There are too many to have died in the GT anyways. This is speaking of all who lived through and/or died in times of tribulation.

 

[Stokie]

Those came from great tribulation in their lives, not from "the" GT as in the time the Ac reigns. There are too many to have died in the GT anyways. This is speaking of all who lived through and/or died in times of tribulation.

Why is it referred to as the Great Tribulation ? If it wasn’t the time of Jacob’s trouble it would surely read just times of tribulation. It’s also referred to as a time of great persecution. Wouldn’t those coming to Christ during that period be persecuted more than any other time in history ?

I’m here to learn

 

[cv5]

Daniel was writing about something in the distant future. So the prophecy was sealed up. John was writing about the same thing basically, but no need to seal it because what he was writing what would soon come to pass.

"John writes because the time was come."

A date. Please provide it.

Furthermore, I take it that the book of Danial was "stopped" and "sealed" to PRESERVE it for posterity. Not hide it as you think.
In fact the content therein is detailed and explicit. Right down to the very day.

 

[tttallison]

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

If you agree that any one of the following items have been fulfilled, then the 70th week has taken place.

1. To finish the transgression.

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. (Mat 5:17)

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

2. To make an end of sins.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

3. To make reconciliation for iniquity.

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Luk 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

1Pe 1:18-19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

4. To bring in everlasting righteousness.

Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Psa 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

5. To seal up the vision and prophecy.

Jhn 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

Jhn 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

6. To anoint the most Holy.

Mar 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Act 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;