Various Moral Issues
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I'd have to go through my term papers to retrieve the source I encountered roughly 10 years ago, but it somehow involved the family of the victim with the rehabilitation of the convict. I took it as a system of forgiveness of sorts as its central focus.
My expertise on the subject is miniscule, I'd only learned enough to get a general idea of its approach. From what I had read, I got the idea that incarceration was a last resort when all other avenues toward rehabilitation had been exhausted. But, in another discussion, offering a rabbinical viewpoint, it was asserted that capital punishment was more humane than incarceration, and I can see the validity of that assertion, notwithstanding the need to work out all the complications involved in such cases.
My expertise on the subject is miniscule, I'd only learned enough to get a general idea of its approach. From what I had read, I got the idea that incarceration was a last resort when all other avenues toward rehabilitation had been exhausted. But, in another discussion, offering a rabbinical viewpoint, it was asserted that capital punishment was more humane than incarceration, and I can see the validity of that assertion, notwithstanding the need to work out all the complications involved in such cases.
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Some of my thinking has been in line with your post here. It seems many do love an animal because the animal is almost unconditional in its love of the owner. I have my pet which I do love much, I adpted her in 2015, and I have never had a better friend. I do not scold her ever with ire, but I will say mala, bad in English, as I hold her close. She knows what mala means, and she fades back into her love for me.
I have told her that God loves her. Why? Because His breath is in her. I have told her not to fear dying because His breath will have been taken back to Himself. Finally, I always tell her that Jesus Yeshua loves her, and she looks at me as though she truly understands. Now she is 19, and I comfort myself with these words knowing her life could end at any time. She has been a great comfort for me, and I never forget her loyalty to me. YES, she is spoiled, and I love it.
On the downside, there are those who turn to animals as a show, putting them above our fellows, this should not be so. People will always be first but a loving pet is a great comfort from the Lord. Remember tha man who had loved his sheep, spoken of to David.
I have told her that God loves her. Why? Because His breath is in her. I have told her not to fear dying because His breath will have been taken back to Himself. Finally, I always tell her that Jesus Yeshua loves her, and she looks at me as though she truly understands. Now she is 19, and I comfort myself with these words knowing her life could end at any time. She has been a great comfort for me, and I never forget her loyalty to me. YES, she is spoiled, and I love it.
On the downside, there are those who turn to animals as a show, putting them above our fellows, this should not be so. People will always be first but a loving pet is a great comfort from the Lord. Remember tha man who had loved his sheep, spoken of to David.
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We used to have a member here who worked in the prison systems, and there are probably current members who do as well. Willie was quite the character as any who remember him could attest, especially @tourist and his lovely wife, as they knew him personally (he has since passed away, R.I.P., WillieT). Anyways, Willie would swear up and down that criminals do not rehabilitate. This may be generally speaking, as there are surely some who turn over a new leaf, but largely and unfortunately research has shown again and again that jail and prison do not deter crime/doesn’t discourage criminals from future crime. Perhaps it applies more so to people who are convicted of serious or violent crimes. Is the Norwegian system anything like restorative justice and traditional ways to reach balance and healing?
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Magenta, have you every heard of Angola Prison? its in Louisiana most of the inmates are for life and the majority of them are certified pastors. it's one of the safest prisons in the United States.
Blessedness out of Brokenness | Full Movie | Ken Curtis
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I do understand what you're saying. But seeing as you seem to be especially interested in this, I'd like to ask you again, what would the punishment be for fathers?
I already gave an example from my own life if my own birth father had wanted to abort me.
I'm also asking because I went to a Lutheran school -- and, real-life story -- a couple, as in, both the girl AND the guy -- were caught skipping school after getting an abortion. This was reported to the entire student body, and since it was their senior year, they were not allowed to walk at graduation. They also had to write a letter apologizing to everyone at the school.
What do you believe their punishment should have been for each of them, since obviously both were compliant with the murder?
I've also worked with at least 2 young women who had abortions as well -- one who was very open about it because she nearly, and the other was weeping loudly in the restroom and I asked her what was wrong. Both had made this decision in agreement with the fathers.
If these women were to be punished for murder, the fathers should get the same punishments, no?
What would those be?
I already gave an example from my own life if my own birth father had wanted to abort me.
I'm also asking because I went to a Lutheran school -- and, real-life story -- a couple, as in, both the girl AND the guy -- were caught skipping school after getting an abortion. This was reported to the entire student body, and since it was their senior year, they were not allowed to walk at graduation. They also had to write a letter apologizing to everyone at the school.
What do you believe their punishment should have been for each of them, since obviously both were compliant with the murder?
I've also worked with at least 2 young women who had abortions as well -- one who was very open about it because she nearly, and the other was weeping loudly in the restroom and I asked her what was wrong. Both had made this decision in agreement with the fathers.
If these women were to be punished for murder, the fathers should get the same punishments, no?
What would those be?
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Self-edit to my last post -- one of the young women I worked with was very open about her procedure because she had it late-stage, going to a "back-alley" place in a large city, as no one locally would do it -- and nearly died. But it was all with the agreement (and partially paid for) by the father.
What should the consequences have been?
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This sounds like an accurate description of it, but I wish I would've printed all my term papers so I would have easier access in retrieving the scholarly sources from which I had drawn my conclusions. I retrieved an article from 2014 by businessinsider.com, Why Norway's prison system is so successful, citing "restorative justice" as an aim to [repair the harm caused by crime rather than punish people. This system focuses on rehabilitating prisoners.] However, one needs to subscribe to read the article. :/
And another article by Saamiya Laroia from jipp.org says or the Norwegian system, "...there is less recidivism and crime..." and this article is free to view and provides a link to the full pdf version.
And another article by Saamiya Laroia from jipp.org says or the Norwegian system, "...there is less recidivism and crime..." and this article is free to view and provides a link to the full pdf version.
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I'm in agreement with Seoulsearch. The womans always blamed yet when they need the fathers help where are they? punish the woman you say but don't you realize having an abortion is already enough punishment it damages the woman some woman are so traumatized that every single day after it they think of their lost child. Where is he/she? what would they have been like? will God forgive me?
GWH i think your insensitive to even bring this topic up. do you know anyone that has had an abortion. or have you every suffered your child being aborted?
GWH i think your insensitive to even bring this topic up. do you know anyone that has had an abortion. or have you every suffered your child being aborted?
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She mentions that the Norwegian system spends two to four times more per person in the system than the US which, to me, shows that they adopted an opinion that it is okay to care about these "people" as much as animals, even if their behavior has fallen short of the ideal human being and more comparable to that of, well, things that some cultures refer to one another as. I believe the rabbi whose opinion I mentioned previously related his conclusion to a degree of an afforded dignity, which should be upheld in whatever circumstance we end up in. I mean, why should it be that only the rich can afford it?
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I looked up Angola Prison. Yikes. In 2004, Paul Harris of The Guardian wrote, "Unsurprisingly, Angola has
always been famed for brutality, riots, escape and murder." In 2009 James Ridgeway of Mother Jones
wrote Angola was "An 18,000-acre complex that still resembles the slave plantation it once was." It
is still operated as a working farm. Each year, the prison produces four million pounds of vegetable crops.
Angola has the largest number of inmates on life sentences in the United States. As of 2009, Angola had 3,712 inmates on life
sentences, making up 74% of the population that year. Some 32 inmates die each year; only four generally gain parole each year.
A 2010 memoir by Wilbert Rideau, an inmate at Angola from 1961 through 2005, states that "slavery was commonplace in Angola with perhaps a quarter of the population in bondage" throughout the 1960s and early 1970s. The New York Times states that weak inmates served as sex slaves who were raped, gang-raped, and traded and sold like cattle. Rideau stated, "The slave's only way out was to commit suicide, escape or kill his master." Under the heading of Inmate Organizations it does say, Angola is also the only penitentiary in the United States where inmates are allowed to independently run their own churches, a practice founded in the penitentiary's history with slavery and one looked upon favorably by inmates.
That's from wiki which has quite an extensive page on them.
All this talk of prisons does of course make me thing of you @seoulsearch as you did your time visiting
and being pen pals with many behind bars. Wow... Kudos to you for such bravery and service.
always been famed for brutality, riots, escape and murder." In 2009 James Ridgeway of Mother Jones
wrote Angola was "An 18,000-acre complex that still resembles the slave plantation it once was." It
is still operated as a working farm. Each year, the prison produces four million pounds of vegetable crops.
Angola has the largest number of inmates on life sentences in the United States. As of 2009, Angola had 3,712 inmates on life
sentences, making up 74% of the population that year. Some 32 inmates die each year; only four generally gain parole each year.
A 2010 memoir by Wilbert Rideau, an inmate at Angola from 1961 through 2005, states that "slavery was commonplace in Angola with perhaps a quarter of the population in bondage" throughout the 1960s and early 1970s. The New York Times states that weak inmates served as sex slaves who were raped, gang-raped, and traded and sold like cattle. Rideau stated, "The slave's only way out was to commit suicide, escape or kill his master." Under the heading of Inmate Organizations it does say, Angola is also the only penitentiary in the United States where inmates are allowed to independently run their own churches, a practice founded in the penitentiary's history with slavery and one looked upon favorably by inmates.
That's from wiki which has quite an extensive page on them.
All this talk of prisons does of course make me thing of you @seoulsearch as you did your time visiting
and being pen pals with many behind bars. Wow... Kudos to you for such bravery and service.
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Very interesting about Angola Prison -- thanks very much for sharing what you found!
And thank you for your kind words. It was all God, and there is one former inmate I keep in touch with. God has completely transformed his life. I have nothing but respect for the work WillieT did, but I'm sure he'd say this particular person whom I consider a good friend would have been like all the rest and would never change -- and I certainly understand that.
But this person was different from the start, always seeking employment and educational programs even within the prison. The other inmates made fun of him while he hauled his books out to the yard to study. But it has more than paid off.
A few years after he got out, I went to visit him and his family. One of the proudest moments of my life was when I got to meet some of the employees and directors of the programs that had helped him get back on his feet, and they all told me what an exceptional person he was. I'll probably be visiting his family again next year.
I have known two people who allowed God to overhaul their lives from the ground up, so I'm happy to report that yes, there ARE a few exceptions out there, praise the Lord!
I would still probably be doing that kind of work -- I actually miss it -- but felt God told me to stop for the sake of my safety.
Thank you again for your kindness!
And thank you for your kind words. It was all God, and there is one former inmate I keep in touch with. God has completely transformed his life. I have nothing but respect for the work WillieT did, but I'm sure he'd say this particular person whom I consider a good friend would have been like all the rest and would never change -- and I certainly understand that.
But this person was different from the start, always seeking employment and educational programs even within the prison. The other inmates made fun of him while he hauled his books out to the yard to study. But it has more than paid off.
A few years after he got out, I went to visit him and his family. One of the proudest moments of my life was when I got to meet some of the employees and directors of the programs that had helped him get back on his feet, and they all told me what an exceptional person he was. I'll probably be visiting his family again next year.
I have known two people who allowed God to overhaul their lives from the ground up, so I'm happy to report that yes, there ARE a few exceptions out there, praise the Lord!
I would still probably be doing that kind of work -- I actually miss it -- but felt God told me to stop for the sake of my safety.
Thank you again for your kindness!
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Isaiah 42
Here Is My Servant
(Matthew 12:15–21)
1“Here is My Servant, whom I uphold,
My Chosen One, in whom My soul delights.
I will put My Spirit on Him,
and He will bring justice to the nations.
2He will not cry out or raise His voice,
nor make His voice heard in the streets.
3A bruised reed He will not break
and a smoldering wick He will not extinguish;
He will faithfully bring forth justice.
4He will not grow weak or discourageda
before He has established justice on the earth.
In His law the islands will put their hope.”b
5This is what God the LORD says—
He who created the heavens
and stretched them out,
who spread out the earth and its offspring,
who gives breath to the people on it
and life to those who walk in it:
6“I, the LORD, have called you
for a righteous purpose,
and I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and appoint you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light to the nations,
7to open the eyes of the blind,
to bring prisoners out of the dungeon
and those sitting in darkness
out from the prison house.
Idk, but it seems to me that this is part of The Plan.
Here Is My Servant
(Matthew 12:15–21)
1“Here is My Servant, whom I uphold,
My Chosen One, in whom My soul delights.
I will put My Spirit on Him,
and He will bring justice to the nations.
2He will not cry out or raise His voice,
nor make His voice heard in the streets.
3A bruised reed He will not break
and a smoldering wick He will not extinguish;
He will faithfully bring forth justice.
4He will not grow weak or discourageda
before He has established justice on the earth.
In His law the islands will put their hope.”b
5This is what God the LORD says—
He who created the heavens
and stretched them out,
who spread out the earth and its offspring,
who gives breath to the people on it
and life to those who walk in it:
6“I, the LORD, have called you
for a righteous purpose,
and I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and appoint you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light to the nations,
7to open the eyes of the blind,
to bring prisoners out of the dungeon
and those sitting in darkness
out from the prison house.
Idk, but it seems to me that this is part of The Plan.
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