What Changed?

[Rufus]

God's grace is infinitely powerful and, therefore, effective. How 'bout these NC promises?

Ezek 36:24-27
24 "'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
NIV

These are unilateral promises! There are no conditons in the NC promises for God's chosen people to fulfill. When God gives his elect a heart transplant, and puts his Spirit in those new hearts and CAUSES (or "moves") them in space and time to follow his laws, how are not both the promises and God's fufillment thereof not equally gracious? The passage clearly implies that none of God's elect will ever lose their salvation! Why? Because God is going to CAUSE his people to be faithful to his revealed will. (But some here will balk at this to mean that God is going to force his people to obey him!) So, how can any of Christ's sheep lose their salvation when God is actively working in his people's lives? He really and truly actively works to preserve them in this age. How is this not a gracious of God, who is motivated to do so out of his love for his chosen people?

 

[JohnRH]

LOUPI

I know what tulip is, but what is LOUPI?

 

[Magenta]

A leg that has gone numb and unfeeling of its environment from lack of circulation is called dead.

No it is not. It is called "asleep."

 

[PaulThomson]

I know what tulip is, but what is LOUPI?

Limited Atonement
Omni-faceted Imperfection
Unnconditional Election
Perseveranc eof the Saints
Irresistible Grace

No one actually believes in Total Depravity.

 

[PaulThomson]

Nah...I don't think so.

That's not a logical argument disqualifying my interpretation.

 

[decipher]

The sin nature resides in our flesh.
It was through procreation that Adam passed down to all the fallen nature which is in the body, not our soul.

Romans 5:12​

​

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, ​

and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.​

​

When it says... "because all sinned?"

The Greek states that it was in one point in time that we all sinned.
For when Adam sinned? Adam sealed our fate of all mankind, all being born with fallen bodies.

The question is, if Adam sinned, why doesn't just he get punished. What do we have to do with Adam's sin? The answer is:
The Bible states that where there is no law, there is no transgression. Adam eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil gave him the knowing of what is right and what is wrong. They disobeyed God and they knew they did wrong, but they also condemned the mankind because we are all born with this conscience. From child birth to death our motivation for living is self (what makes us feel good or is good for us) first. We are all born with a heart. When we hear the word heart, we think of where our physical heart is, but what is the heart according to the Bible.
Gen 6: 5 The heart has thoughts and imagination
Dan 6: 14 The heart has motivation or direction
Gen 6: 6 The heart grieves
Gen 8: 21, 24: 45 The heart speaks to itself
Gen 18: 5 The heart can be comforted
Gen 45: 26 The heart can faint
Exod 4: 14 The heart can be glad
Exod 4: 21 The heart can be hardened ( made firm or unchanging)
Exod 25: 2 The heart has a will
Exod 31: 6 The heart can be wise
Num 32: 7 The heart can be discouraged
Deut 29:4 The heart can perceive
1 Sam 4: 13 The heart can be fearful
Conclusion: The heart is the consciousness that is in every being.
Because of Adam eating from that particular tree, we are all condemned from birth. In human perspective it was just one sin of disobedience that caused God to kick Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden. Sinners are not allowed. Guess what, sinners are still not allowed. If in the human time line God condemns all, He would be considered merciless. If God saves all, there would be disobedience and lawlessness which God would not tolerate. His only choice is to save a few in order to exhibit His Justice and Mercy to the spirit world who are watching. No human is worthy of salvation except Jesus. As a matter of fact, understanding this fact is an ingredient needed and provided by the God the Father. Another ingredient provided by the Father when He chooses you is repentance for sins committed. The sinner experiences a deep sorrow and shame, afraid to reveal his sin to anyone except God and ask Him for His forgiveness. Jesus said that people who think they are well don't need a doctor. Jesus' first sermon was to call sinners to repentance. It is the Father who decides who will hear and to whom He will grant the repentance that leads to salvation. This is what happens when you get baptized in the name of the Father.
Through preaching from true believers concerning the forgiveness of sins through trusting in Jesus death for the forgiveness of sins committed is how you get baptized in the name of the Son. But you still cannot enter heaven because, as most of you are aware, you still sin because your motivation for living is still self (what makes you feel good or what you think is good for you).
God fixes the problem. Jesus, after living, dying, and rising, told his disciples that he was going to the Father to get glorified. God's glory is His Holy Spirit. Jesus is given a spiritual body composed of the human souls chosen by the Father throughout the human timeline. Jesus baptizes those chosen by the Father with the Holy Spirit. According to Isaiah 63: 9-10, the Holy Spirit is the angel of His presence. In other words, where the Holy Spirit is, the Father is. The Holy Spirit acts as a portal through which the Father through the Son can enter the being of those indwelled. In other words, through the Holy Spirit, the Father resides in the Son and the Son resides in we who are saved. We become one with the Father and Son because we are connected by the Holy Spirit. They fill us with love for the Father and Son first, and all others as we love ourselves. When your motivation for every thought and action is Love for God first and all others as we love ourselves, you are obeying Christ's commandments which are the basis for all the other commandments. This is what happens when you get baptized in the name of the Holy Spirit by the Son. That is when you know for sure that you are truly saved, when you can feel this godly love and you have that desire and craving to, just like Jesus, do the Father's will.
I was baptized with water in my 20's and trusted in Jesus, but continued to being a slave to sin. My sin was sexual in nature and very strong. I hated my sin and I prayed to God for me to overcome it. God answered my prayer when I developed ED in my seventies. What a blessing this turned out to be. Sex was no longer on my mind and my thoughts were filled with messages and understanding from God. The purpose of my life now is to fulfill the Father's plan for me on this earth before I die. I hated my life then, but I love it now.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

He sent them into the wilderness because the promised land was far away from Egypt. They had to go through the wilderness to get to it. And the Jews remained in the wilderness for 40 years due to their disobedience! It was no fault of God that an entire generation died and weren't permitted to enter the land.

Thank you for understanding this fact

And if God's covenant with Abraham was a gracious covenant due to the promises therein, then by what logic does God's acts in keeping the promise become ungracious!?

It was about Jesus - the son of abraham, not abraham.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Again, how is God's promise-keeping not gracious!? Did Abraham, Issac and Jacob deserve the promises in the first place? Or was God indebted to the patriarchs to make promises? In your world when God actually works in space and time to fulfill his promises, such as actually getting the Israelities into the land, then that action is ungracious? If the words of promise were gracious, then how on this little green planet does God fulfilling the promises become ungracious? If anything, the actual fulfillment is even more gracious!

And arguing from the love angle does not help your case. It actually helps mine because true biblical love is always proactive! Agape love is never a mere passive love! (Read the Sermon on the Mount for starters!) God didn't love his OC people with just mere words (e.g. empty promises) but with numerous acts of kindness in space and time to fulfill his promises, which very often entailed great and miraculous powerful acts. The Exodus out of Egypt is the supreme example when God had to exert great power to free his people from the yoke of slavery. And fighting battles for the Jews to actually occupy the land is another great example. God preserving the Jews in the wilderness by feeding them and protecting them from their enemies is another great example, etc.

In the Parable of the Good Samaritan, who displayed great love toward an enemy (a Jew), was not the Samaritan's charitable and caring acts gracious in nature, or would real grace have only been manifested by the Samaritan by merely telling the Jew, as he casually walked by him, "I love you"? According to your logic true grace, motivated by love, could have been manifested only in the latter scenario! Likewise, in your world God's words in his covenant promises to the patriarchs are truly gracious, yet when God actually delivers on those promises in time and space those acts are ungracious! Such torturous logic!

You do not get it.

GOD LOVES HIS CREATION.

Because he LOVE HIS CREATION, In his omniscient mind, he KNEW his creation would rebel. So he made a plan to save this creation.

He understood the only way to restor them was for HIM to come down, and suffer what his creation deserves in their place. so he could restore them. This is based on his love, because his love could never over rule his justice, which demanded a payment for sin.

Because God was going to die for his creation. he was and is able to offer them mercy, based on his grace. which is based on his love.

Grace is not the power that does anything,. it is his love, without love, there is no grace.

Again, instead of attacking people like @PaulThomson and myself. Study the bible. you will see it is L:OVE that empower God to act. it is LOVE that empowers God to even offer grace. and it is GOD"S LOVE for us that empowers us to do good.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

God's grace is infinitely powerful and, therefore, effective. How 'bout these NC promises?

Ezek 36:24-27
24 "'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
NIV

These are unilateral promises! There are no conditons in the NC promises for God's chosen people to fulfill. When God gives his elect a heart transplant, and puts his Spirit in those new hearts and CAUSES (or "moves") them in space and time to follow his laws, how are not both the promises and God's fufillment thereof not equally gracious? The passage clearly implies that none of God's elect will ever lose their salvation! Why? Because God is going to CAUSE his people to be faithful to his revealed will. (But some here will balk at this to mean that God is going to force his people to obey him!) So, how can any of Christ's sheep lose their salvation when God is actively working in his people's lives? He really and truly actively works to preserve them in this age. How is this not a gracious of God, who is motivated to do so out of his love for his chosen people?

These are based on Gods promises. based on Gods love

apart from Gods love. non of those could happen.

 

[Cameron143]

Limited Atonement
Omni-faceted Imperfection
Unnconditional Election
Perseveranc eof the Saints
Irresistible Grace

No one actually believes in Total Depravity.

I do, if by total depravity one means every facet of man.
The problem with discussing such things is often found in the terminology applied and the different definitions each applies.
It would be better either to use biblical terminology or give definitions before a discussion.
Another problem that arises is the insistence upon labels.

 

[JohnRH]

Limited Atonement
Omni-faceted Imperfection
Unnconditional Election
Perseveranc eof the Saints
Irresistible Grace

No one actually believes in Total Depravity.

Thanks.

 

[Magenta]

I do, if by total depravity one means every facet of man.
The problem with discussing such things is often found in the terminology applied and the different definitions each applies.
It would be better either to use biblical terminology or give definitions before a discussion.
Another problem that arises is the insistence upon labels.

The Bible does call man depraved, but people don't like that word.

 

[Magenta]

Thanks.

When he says no one actually believes in total depravity, he means he does not believe what the Bible says about the natural man.

 

[Cameron143]

The Bible does call man depraved, but people don't like that word.

Neither have many actually taken the time to learn fully the arguments they rail against.

 

[Magenta]

Neither have many actually taken the time to learn fully the arguments they rail against.

I know. They get all huffy and act as if the natural man is good/righteous when the
Bible plainly states otherwise in a plethora of ways, from beginning to end.

 

[Genez]

Limited Atonement
Omni-faceted Imperfection
Unnconditional Election
Perseveranc eof the Saints
Irresistible Grace

No one actually believes in Total Depravity.

Total depravity would leave God with nothing to save!

We have been crucified with Christ.
Our bodies are depraved.
God tosses our present bodies into a garbage heap by virtue of the Cross.

It's the human soul that is not by default depraved.
And, God saves what?
The SOUL!

There is no total depravity.
Only souls that were enslaved to their flesh until God's power of grace put an end to it.

2 Corinthians 12:9

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect ​

in weakness.” Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, ​

so that Christ’s power may rest on me. ​

........

 

[Rufus]

You shall not beaf false witness against your neighbour (sic). Show one example of me culling a scripture. Disagreeing with your interpretation of a scripture and offering an alternative contextualised (sic) interpretation, is not "culling" it.

That's exactly what you did with passages like Jer 17:9 and/or Isa 1:5-6 because these passages strongly support the biblical doctrine of Total Depravity. You basically accused me of interpreting them out of context by saying that those passages only applied to apostate, rebellious Israel, thereby clearly implying that the entire non-covenant pagan world was more righteous than Israel! I countered your allegations by pointing to the antediluvian world and asking if the people at that time, whose "thoughts and intentions of their hearts were continually evil" were more righteous than Israel? Is that why God destroyed virtually the entire human race -- because the antediluvians were more righteous, more spiritual than Israel? The pagans were less hostile toward their Creator? I also recall appealing to the postdiluvian world with Ps 2: 1-6, since the entire world is at enmity with God.

And even more recently you most certainly tried to "cull" Job's unflattering words about the human race by totally discrediting him, clearly implying that Job's words could not be trusted by citing Job 38:2 Yet, not even God went to that extreme when he spoke of his faithful servant (Job 42:7). So, in order to discredit Job, you interpreted 38:2 out of its larger context.

It seems that you have a selectively short memory as well.

 

[Rufus]

Total depravity would leave God with nothing to save!

We have been crucified with Christ.
Our bodies are depraved.
God tosses our present bodies into a garbage heap by virtue of the Cross.

It's the human soul that is not by default depraved.
And, God saves what?
The SOUL!

There is no total depravity.
Only souls that were enslaved to their flesh until God's power of grace put an end to it.

2 Corinthians 12:9

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect ​

in weakness.” Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, ​

so that Christ’s power may rest on me. ....​

​

No! Total Depravity would leave God with powerless, helpless people to save, such as the Israelites in Egypt whom God RESCUED from the hopeless environment of slavery.

 

[Rufus]

Limited Atonement
Omni-faceted Imperfection
Unnconditional Election
Perseveranc eof the Saints
Irresistible Grace

No one actually believes in Total Depravity.

Which means that most believe they are not helpless and in a hopeless, and that there is something good in them. God help such people who call evil good and good evil!

 

[PaulThomson]

He sent them into the wilderness because the promised land was far away from Egypt. They had to go through the wilderness to get to it. And the Jews remained in the wilderness for 40 years due to their disobedience! It was no fault of God that an entire generation died and weren't permitted to enter the land.

And if God's covenant with Abraham was a gracious covenant due to the promises therein, then by what logic does God's acts in keeping the promise become ungracious!?

You believe God decreed from eternity past that Israel would rebel and spend 40 years being culled of an almost an entire generation and there was nothing the Israelites could do to change God's decree. You are being so dishonest here,