Understanding God’s election

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Cameron143

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Viewing God as schizophrenic is NOT reconciling love and justness, but I also don't buy that God casts people into hell.
I don't view God as schizophrenic. Understanding what I posted in these terms simply means you don't understand my post. Rather than ascribe something to me perhaps you should ask for further clarification.
Who does cast people into the Lake of Fire?
 
I will focus on your saying that God gives grace to whomever He chooses combined and harmonized with God is not willing that anyone should perish.

I think the key to interpreting these teachings harmoniously is by understanding the "in Christ" of Ephesians 1 to mean that God chooses/elects those who freely respond to His calling by freely accepting Jesus as Christ and Lord. This plan of salvation is what is predestined (EPH 1:4-11)
No non elect person freely responds to God. psalm 14, romans 3...no not one
 

Cameron143

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Biblically, there is only God‘s will. Man creates alternatives to fit their man made theology. I’ll stick with God’s word.
Biblically there is the love of God, yet there are differing manifestations of it. So too the will of God. That you are unable to see the difference is ok by me.
 
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No ,God predestines the individual people.Rom8 :29-30 is clear...whom/Them.......refer to people, not a plan:

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.



God is not willing of those He has elected and given to the Son, perish.Not one of them will perish! Jn 6:37 All that the Father Gives to me shall come to me.
If God predestines most people to damnation without a chance to conform, then Paul was lying when he said that God loves everone and wants everyone to be saved. (1TM 2:3-4)
 

Cameron143

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They rebranded. What brand are you?

Luk 11:52
Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Not only do you hinder, you absolutely deny entry. And you are quite choosy about it.
You deny entry to ANYBODY but yourselves, an exclusive cadre of extra special chosenites.

Consequently, you and Satan can accuse God for creating a soul for no other purpose than to be cast into the lake of fire for eternity.
Because YOU SAY (over and over again) that they never had ANY CHOICE in the matter whatsoever.

Sick.
Again you bear false witness. Neither have I said God created any souls for destruction nor that I have excluded anyone from salvation. Since I cannot save anyone or keep anyone from being saved, it seems your CDS is in full bloom today.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Who has said God purposes people to be vile? Knowing something before it happens as God knew man would disobey and sin does not mean He made anyone do that. It does seem that many people need to break it down to either God makes them sin (which is not true) or they are naturally free to choose (which is not true either). Man is born dead to God. That is a fundamental Biblical truth. None are righteous... no, not one! All sin and anyone who sins is a slave to sin. Does taken captive to do the will of the devil sound like a free man to you? It is called being born after Adam. Jesus is the second Adam. We need to be born of Him, and then we can be transformed in His image.
“Who has said God purposes people to be vile? “

im asking saying God didn’t purpose this or plan and ordain it . Man did it independently apart from Gods Will for them which is good

“Knowing something before it happens as God knew man would disobey and sin does not mean He made anyone do that. “

indeed and agreed we’ll said foreknowledge is one thing , pre ordaining is another

if we look at it foreknolwedge of what would be later is why he ordained Christ before creation to come and be manifest when he was after man had become sinners. Not that they were created sinners but they later became sinners

“but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It seems foreknowledge is how and why he ordained Christ beforehand.

him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2: 23‬ ‭


We can tangibly see God has foreknowledge and how Christ was pre ordained in the prophets writings like this before he was born



“But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“It does seem that many people need to break it down to either God makes them sin (which is not true) or they are naturally free to choose (which is not true either). Man is born dead to God. “

“For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭20:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Mankind was created and made alive by God , Adams transgression brought sin to mankind’s nature and sin brings death

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:12, 19‬ ‭

Through Adam we inherit a sinful nature then later we sin and are condemned to death we aren’t born dead we’re born condemned to die later when we die. We can be saved and never die or can go ahead and die rejecting the lord

theough Christ and his spirit we inherit a nature of goodness the son of Gods spirit in us .

We’re all going to die because of sin we can die like this by faith

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-7‬ ‭

Or we can die in our sins like Jesus warned if we reject him

“I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:24‬ ‭

We’re all gonna die and exist under a sentance of death because we sin having that sinful nature adam caused this when he ate the knowledge of good and evil

We aren’t dead we’re like this corrupted


“I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. ..but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:21, 23-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God didn’t create us with the e law of sin in us or good and evil he made them good and they lived by his word and fellowshipped with him there was no law but the commandment of life telling them not to earth the forbidden fruit

We inherit his deeds and nature because we all come from his dna and her dna the first two sinners and sin brings death

“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

god knows beforehand what’s gonna happen if he eats the fruit so he tells him the truth.

then satans lie comes along

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:4-6‬ ‭

Both broke the commandment we can discuss why but either way both ones and broke Gods commandment regarding good and evil knowledge and partook as Satan tempted them to do

the choice has always been mans to make between good and evil since we were created God placed good and evil before man life and death and never forced us to choose just told us the truth And said believe and live

Also Warned us of what will happen if we don’t obey fully informed and have to choose life or death
 

Pilgrimshope

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If God predestines most people to damnation without a chance to conform, then Paul was lying when he said that God loves everone and wants everyone to be saved. (1TM 2:3-4)
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

anyone can be saved many refuse to hear and accept the gospel though
 

Pilgrimshope

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Right...through revelation the truth is revealed. Until then, how does one know God and Christ? They can't. But of course once revelation occurs, we conform to that revelation aided by the Spirit who now dwells within us.
What do you mean until then ?
Brother we don’t have to know really much at all for Jesus to accept us as one of his disciples certainly don’t have to wait for any great revelation we just have to believe and acknowledge he’s the lord and then act like what he’s teaching is true and believe it

his disciples didn’t do anything or know anything special when Jesus accepted them brother it’s knowing him that reveals things to us . We have to come with all our flaws in truth and be students and followers but the reason has to be because we believe the gospel that’s in the Bible about Jesus being born and doing everything g he did and showing us light in darkness then returning to heaven to his throne
 

Publican

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And it blasphemes God by characterizing Him as a cosmic tyrant cosmic joker supervillian.
Or, a loving Father who knows who His Children are. Something about wheat and tares comes to mind.
 

cv5

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Again you bear false witness. Neither have I said God created any souls for destruction nor that I have excluded anyone from salvation. Since I cannot save anyone or keep anyone from being saved, it seems your CDS is in full bloom today.
"Because YOU SAY (over and over again) that they never had ANY CHOICE in the matter whatsoever."

Guilty as charged.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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I don't view God as schizophrenic. Understanding what I posted in these terms simply means you don't understand my post. Rather than ascribe something to me perhaps you should ask for further clarification.
Who does cast people into the Lake of Fire?
I DID ask for clarification. I asked you to clarify why you view God's justice as contradicting His love?

And in terms of what you just said, why do you imply that God is unloving to enforce just consequences for rejecting His law?
 

Cameron143

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What do you mean until then ?
Brother we don’t have to know really much at all for Jesus to accept us as one of his disciples certainly don’t have to wait for any great revelation we just have to believe and acknowledge he’s the lord and then act like what he’s teaching is true and believe it

his disciples didn’t do anything or know anything special when Jesus accepted them brother it’s knowing him that reveals things to us . We have to come with all our flaws in truth and be students and followers but the reason has to be because we believe the gospel that’s in the Bible about Jesus being born and doing everything g he did and showing us light in darkness then returning to heaven to his throne
I'm obviously not able to articulate my point well for you, but as always appreciate the conversation.
 

cv5

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The issue is not whether people are unsaved, but rather whether they had the opportunity to be saved and thus are justly condemned to hell if they rejected or ignored it.
The truth is that Pharaoh had EVERY REAL OPPORTUNITY to be saved. He had 10 PLAGUES to consider!
Furthermore, there is no doubt that God wanted him saved as he does all men.
Same goes for the ENTIRE CITY of Jericho. For pity's sake they had a WEEK OF WARNINGS!


What happened?
Here is what happened.
Pharaoh resisted Gods will, and did HIS OWN WILL.....to the point of his own death and the death of his entire army.
Same goes for the Amorite kings and all the cities of Canaan.

Rom 9:19
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

And yes, the Calvinites totally butcher the meaning of this passage. As they do so many others.
Hint: Paul is saying that such an accusation IS BASELESS AND FALSE!

Rom 9:20
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

What is this? It is yet another FALSE ACCUSATION!

=========================================================================

And oh looky here. What is the meaning of THIS passage?
The Calvinites will be sure to BLAME GOD because.....you know....He Alone is God and He Alone knows the end from the beginning.
And Satan likewise blames God for being God. Yes he does. Day in and day out 24/7.

Exo 3:19
And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.
 

Cameron143

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I DID ask for clarification. I asked you to clarify why you view God's justice as contradicting His love?

And in terms of what you just said, why do you imply that God is unloving to enforce just consequences for rejecting His law?
There you go again. I didn't imply God is unloving. I said casting someone into hell is not a manifestation of love. God is perfectly just in casting people into hell. And He is perfectly just in exercising love. He can exercise both at the same time. When He poured out His wrath on Jesus it was both an exercise of love towards mankind, and an exercise of justice towards Jesus. But when He casts an individual into the Lake of Fire it is not both simultaneously an act of love and an act of judgment.
God is merciful, but He doesn't always act mercifully. To Moses He said that He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy, and will likewise harden whom He will harden. Does God stop being merciful when His actions do not engender mercy? No. In the same manner, God is always loving even though His actions don't always convey love. He doesn't stop being loving. He chooses to emphasize or convey a different attribute.
 

Cameron143

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"Because YOU SAY (over and over again) that they never had ANY CHOICE in the matter whatsoever."

Guilty as charged.
No I don't. I have said over and over that they choose the course of action that fits them for destruction. Again, you bear false witness.
 

cv5

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No I don't. I have said over and over that they choose the course of action that fits them for destruction. Again, you bear false witness.
Because you say they do not have the FREE WILL to do otherwise.

Calvinistas are always moving the goalposts. Makes them feel less guilty, but to no avail.
 

Cameron143

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Because you say they do not have the FREE WILL to do otherwise.

Calvinistas are always moving the goalposts. Makes them feel less guilty, but to no avail.
I don't say that. The word of God does. You simply won't let scripture define the estate of fallen man.
Grace and peace.