I was wondering who believes you can get unsaved.
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we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done period
it does not matter if these are works of faith, works of the law. or just doing what your dad tells you to do.
We are not saved by works.. we are not even saved by Faith
we are saved by Grace, by Gods mercy, through faith (eph 2 with titus 3)
it does not matter if these are works of faith, works of the law. or just doing what your dad tells you to do.
We are not saved by works.. we are not even saved by Faith
we are saved by Grace, by Gods mercy, through faith (eph 2 with titus 3)
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Its not a warning against doing so.
the warning is if it were possible. you could not get saved again.. the thing that is impossible is renewing your salvation if it is lost.
Remember the author is refuting those thinking you are saved by law. The law said you could fall away by sin, then renewed by animal sacrifice.. this is what paul is refuting..
No it does not. It says they recieve the knowledge, they recieved the word. and they have partook of Gods blessing. anyone who is around a body of believers is blessed by association. It does not mean they are saved.
I agree. When we are saved, we are made into new creatures. If we claim we are saved, but are not. we are still a dog.
A dog will return to whatever he was.
Whether what we were is trhe law. Sin, Some other religion or whatever. It is who we are. and we will return. if we do not die first.
No sir. the context of romans 11 is the nation of Israel. and did god reject them. Not induvidual salvation,..
How does one endure to the end?
we are not sinless. So that is not enduring.
We will never meet Gods standard. so that is not enduring.
so what exactly is enduring.
and PS. enduring to the end in context is those livving during the time of the end. and life for those who endure to the end is having their physical life saved and entering the 1000 year reign having physically seen the return of christ.
Spiritual life is not in context
If we are sealed until the day of redemption we are sealed. there is nothing you can do to unseal yourself.
I have freedom in christ. You can;t tell me a person who truly believes, who truly repented, and who have truly experienced Gods love by being born again, will change their mind..Unless they never truly believed to begin with.
eternal life is eternal. i have it. If i can lose it. it is not eternal. it is conditional.
God called it eternal. i will trust him. In fact as John said,l it is my knowledge I have it that keeps me trusting it.. If I am not assured I have it. then I will be easily pulled away.. Because I have no hope. no hope is no faith. no faith is not salvation
right, and who are those who do not continue? those who have no faith..
Salvation is not my part and Gods part.
I can not save myself. God must save me
now either he did. or he did not.
there is no inbetween.
if you think you still have a part to do. I would restudy the gospel. and rethink your position in christ.
the warning is if it were possible. you could not get saved again.. the thing that is impossible is renewing your salvation if it is lost.
Remember the author is refuting those thinking you are saved by law. The law said you could fall away by sin, then renewed by animal sacrifice.. this is what paul is refuting..
No it does not. It says they recieve the knowledge, they recieved the word. and they have partook of Gods blessing. anyone who is around a body of believers is blessed by association. It does not mean they are saved.
I agree. When we are saved, we are made into new creatures. If we claim we are saved, but are not. we are still a dog.
A dog will return to whatever he was.
Whether what we were is trhe law. Sin, Some other religion or whatever. It is who we are. and we will return. if we do not die first.
No sir. the context of romans 11 is the nation of Israel. and did god reject them. Not induvidual salvation,..
How does one endure to the end?
we are not sinless. So that is not enduring.
We will never meet Gods standard. so that is not enduring.
so what exactly is enduring.
and PS. enduring to the end in context is those livving during the time of the end. and life for those who endure to the end is having their physical life saved and entering the 1000 year reign having physically seen the return of christ.
Spiritual life is not in context
If we are sealed until the day of redemption we are sealed. there is nothing you can do to unseal yourself.
I have freedom in christ. You can;t tell me a person who truly believes, who truly repented, and who have truly experienced Gods love by being born again, will change their mind..Unless they never truly believed to begin with.
eternal life is eternal. i have it. If i can lose it. it is not eternal. it is conditional.
God called it eternal. i will trust him. In fact as John said,l it is my knowledge I have it that keeps me trusting it.. If I am not assured I have it. then I will be easily pulled away.. Because I have no hope. no hope is no faith. no faith is not salvation
right, and who are those who do not continue? those who have no faith..
Salvation is not my part and Gods part.
I can not save myself. God must save me
now either he did. or he did not.
there is no inbetween.
if you think you still have a part to do. I would restudy the gospel. and rethink your position in christ.
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● Heb 6:1-3 . .Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ
and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from
acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the
laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And
God permitting, we will do so.
From this point onward, the author will need God's assistance if he's to have
any success at all getting thru his listeners thick skulls.
● Heb 6:4-6 . . For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and
have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy
Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world
to come; if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;
seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an
open shame.
Now the thing to note is that folks unified with Christ have all been made
partakers of the Holy Ghost.
● 2Cor 1:21-22 . . Now he which establishes us with you in Christ, and has
anointed us, is God; who has also sealed us, and given the earnest of the
Spirit in our hearts.
● Eph 1:13-14 . . Christ; in whom you also trusted, after that you heard the
word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you
believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the
earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of his glory.
● Eph 4:30 . . Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed
unto the day of redemption.
So then the folks described as fallen away are not lost, no, the thing they've
gone and done is made themselves unteachable, i.e. indifferent.
Well; seeing as how nothing is impossible with God, then I think it's safe to
posit that He figures believers with that attitude are not worth His time for
now; and any effort on our part to get them interested in advanced Bible
studies would be like trying to dig up a coral reef bare handed.
Those indifferent believers will make it to Heaven alright because they're sealed,
but I suspect they'll be shuttled off to a Bible camp to bring them up to speed
with those of us who made the climb to higher ground while still down here
instead of waiting till we got up there.
_
● Heb 6:1-3 . .Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ
and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from
acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the
laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And
God permitting, we will do so.
From this point onward, the author will need God's assistance if he's to have
any success at all getting thru his listeners thick skulls.
● Heb 6:4-6 . . For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and
have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy
Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world
to come; if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;
seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an
open shame.
Now the thing to note is that folks unified with Christ have all been made
partakers of the Holy Ghost.
● 2Cor 1:21-22 . . Now he which establishes us with you in Christ, and has
anointed us, is God; who has also sealed us, and given the earnest of the
Spirit in our hearts.
● Eph 1:13-14 . . Christ; in whom you also trusted, after that you heard the
word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you
believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the
earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of his glory.
● Eph 4:30 . . Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed
unto the day of redemption.
So then the folks described as fallen away are not lost, no, the thing they've
gone and done is made themselves unteachable, i.e. indifferent.
Well; seeing as how nothing is impossible with God, then I think it's safe to
posit that He figures believers with that attitude are not worth His time for
now; and any effort on our part to get them interested in advanced Bible
studies would be like trying to dig up a coral reef bare handed.
Those indifferent believers will make it to Heaven alright because they're sealed,
but I suspect they'll be shuttled off to a Bible camp to bring them up to speed
with those of us who made the climb to higher ground while still down here
instead of waiting till we got up there.
_
1. "the warning is if it were possible. you could not get saved again". Why would the warning be needed if repudiating salvation is impossible?
2. "No it [HB 6:4-6] does not refer to believers. It says they recieve the knowledge, they recieved the word. and they have partook of Gods blessing." No, it says they are enlightened, tasted grace and shared in the Holy Spirit, which only believers do.
3. "No sir. the context of romans 11 is the nation of Israel. and did god reject them. Not induvidual salvation". God neither saves nor rejects nations, but only individual souls on the basis of their personal sins. Paul was merely generalizing, because most Jews rejected Christ.
4. "How does one endure to the end?" By continuing as one began.
5. "If we are sealed until the day of redemption we are sealed. there is nothing you can do to unseal yourself." Then a loving God would nullify volition from the beginning and seal everyone.
6. "If i can lose it. it is not eternal. it is conditional." Bingo! God's love is unconditional, but His forgiveness is conditional upon repentance.
7. "If I am not assured I have it. then I will be easily pulled away." No, but our assurance must agree with biblical teaching about the possibility of apostasy--so don't get cocky!
the free gift will not be lost, well said sir. the question should be what is it to believe? what changes in us when we do believe? John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day,"
Isaiah 55:11 (ESV)
"So shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it."
if this person lost this would the fathers will- command be done
Isaiah 55:11 (ESV)
"So shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it."
if this person lost this would the fathers will- command be done
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Because context of the whole book of Hebrews is going back to law.
The law said you can lose salvation. then get it back again, then lose it. then get it back.. it said specifically. You can fall away.
The authors warning is this, If you fall away (if it were possible) you can not be renewed again, And this thinking you can fall away. puts christ to shame..
No., Your reading into the text.. Try studying the whole book of hebrews. not just cut some test out. Even the following verse show this. when it says the earth drinks rain etc etc. it says at most it is near to being cursed..
it shows in itself that salvation can not be lost. Much like paul said in his word. about reward. that there will be some who have every reward burned, But he himself will still be saved, even as through fire.
My friend, Look at Romans 11. It is about Israel verses gentiles
Israel is blinded in part
Israel is the natural branch
Israel was cut off
You were grafted in,
You are the unnatural branch.
And then he warns the gentiles. Do not be puffed up. Just as they (Israel) were cut off. You can be cut off as well.. (Much of the gentile church even today believes God is done with Israel) and Paul warned them, That not only will Israel repent. but they all will be saved.
He finishes by saying they are enemies at this time concerning the gospel. but to be loved concerning the election.
Sorry my friend. You can mot make induvidual salvation any part of romans 11. it is not there.
So by continuing to sin and fall short? So by continuing to remain a baby in Christ? By continuing to remain put?
God does not nullify volition. If you truly received God. and you were truly born of him and had his spirit in you. You would never repent back to rejecting the fact you needed saved and reject Gods grace gift.
Bingo. You only need to repent once.. Once you have repented and turned to him. You do not have to keep repenting. Even saying you do puts you under law not under grace.
Jesus paid it all. why do you not believe him?
I am not the one cocky myfriend. Your the one who thinks you have made it. and must keep making it
Apostasy happens all the time. Not on people. but in the church,. we are witnessing it today as so many old churches are closing their doors. and others are turning to sin.
John said I can know I have eternal life. and it is this knoweldge that keeps me in faith, Its why I can come to the throne of Grace and visit my abba father.. Only people who are not secure are the people that need to worry. Because they lack real faith.
The law said you can lose salvation. then get it back again, then lose it. then get it back.. it said specifically. You can fall away.
The authors warning is this, If you fall away (if it were possible) you can not be renewed again, And this thinking you can fall away. puts christ to shame..
No., Your reading into the text.. Try studying the whole book of hebrews. not just cut some test out. Even the following verse show this. when it says the earth drinks rain etc etc. it says at most it is near to being cursed..
it shows in itself that salvation can not be lost. Much like paul said in his word. about reward. that there will be some who have every reward burned, But he himself will still be saved, even as through fire.
My friend, Look at Romans 11. It is about Israel verses gentiles
Israel is blinded in part
Israel is the natural branch
Israel was cut off
You were grafted in,
You are the unnatural branch.
And then he warns the gentiles. Do not be puffed up. Just as they (Israel) were cut off. You can be cut off as well.. (Much of the gentile church even today believes God is done with Israel) and Paul warned them, That not only will Israel repent. but they all will be saved.
He finishes by saying they are enemies at this time concerning the gospel. but to be loved concerning the election.
Sorry my friend. You can mot make induvidual salvation any part of romans 11. it is not there.
So by continuing to sin and fall short? So by continuing to remain a baby in Christ? By continuing to remain put?
God does not nullify volition. If you truly received God. and you were truly born of him and had his spirit in you. You would never repent back to rejecting the fact you needed saved and reject Gods grace gift.
Bingo. You only need to repent once.. Once you have repented and turned to him. You do not have to keep repenting. Even saying you do puts you under law not under grace.
Jesus paid it all. why do you not believe him?
I am not the one cocky myfriend. Your the one who thinks you have made it. and must keep making it
Apostasy happens all the time. Not on people. but in the church,. we are witnessing it today as so many old churches are closing their doors. and others are turning to sin.
John said I can know I have eternal life. and it is this knoweldge that keeps me in faith, Its why I can come to the throne of Grace and visit my abba father.. Only people who are not secure are the people that need to worry. Because they lack real faith.
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● John 10:29 . . My sheep . . my Father gave them to me
Now, those sheep weren't exactly a freebee, viz: the sheep didn't come
cheap. Jesus bought and paid for them himself at enormous personal
expense.
● 1Pet 1:18-19 . . For you know that it was not with perishable things such
as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed
down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a
lamb without blemish or defect.
There are people out and about who sincerely believe that Jesus' sheep--
having been bought and paid for at the price of his own blood --are in a
position to dictate the terms of their association with him. They actually
believe their rightful owner would stand aside while they disown him sans
fair and reasonable compensation, and walk out the door to start a new life
elsewhere, possibly with some other rancher, maybe even one of his
competitors.
There's some pertinent lines in a movie called The Hunt For Red October that
go like this:
Dr. Ryan: We definitely grab the boat, sir.
National Security Advisor: Hey, wait a minute. We're not talking about some
stray pilot with a MIG. We're talking about several billion dollars' worth of Soviet
state property. They're gonna to want it back.
Duh!
_
● John 10:29 . . My sheep . . my Father gave them to me
Now, those sheep weren't exactly a freebee, viz: the sheep didn't come
cheap. Jesus bought and paid for them himself at enormous personal
expense.
● 1Pet 1:18-19 . . For you know that it was not with perishable things such
as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed
down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a
lamb without blemish or defect.
There are people out and about who sincerely believe that Jesus' sheep--
having been bought and paid for at the price of his own blood --are in a
position to dictate the terms of their association with him. They actually
believe their rightful owner would stand aside while they disown him sans
fair and reasonable compensation, and walk out the door to start a new life
elsewhere, possibly with some other rancher, maybe even one of his
competitors.
There's some pertinent lines in a movie called The Hunt For Red October that
go like this:
Dr. Ryan: We definitely grab the boat, sir.
National Security Advisor: Hey, wait a minute. We're not talking about some
stray pilot with a MIG. We're talking about several billion dollars' worth of Soviet
state property. They're gonna to want it back.
Duh!
_
"Try studying the whole book of hebrews". Okay, I tried studying HB 10:26-36 for starters, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”
I think our different interpretations of Scripture stem from beginning with a different starting emphasis in our hermeneutic, so I want to invite you and everyone to discuss this on that new thread with the hope that we will make progress in answering the prayer of Jesus in JN 17:20f. for spiritual unity among his followers. LIC
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In regard to Hebrews 10:26, to "sin willfully" here carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows continuous, willful, habitual, continuous action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9)
Confidence is rooted in the sacrificial death and blood of Jesus, yet those who draw back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul (Hebrews 10:39) demonstrate a lack of confidence which culminates in a lack of perseverance. So, those Hebrews who reject the sacrificial death and blood of Jesus for the Levitical system, have in effect of trampled the Son of God underfoot, counting the blood of the covenant as a common thing, and insulting the Spirit of grace. For such folks, there no longer remains a sacrifice to atone for our sins that is, no further offering to anticipate.
Confidence is rooted in the sacrificial death and blood of Jesus, yet those who draw back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul (Hebrews 10:39) demonstrate a lack of confidence which culminates in a lack of perseverance. So, those Hebrews who reject the sacrificial death and blood of Jesus for the Levitical system, have in effect of trampled the Son of God underfoot, counting the blood of the covenant as a common thing, and insulting the Spirit of grace. For such folks, there no longer remains a sacrifice to atone for our sins that is, no further offering to anticipate.
There is a difference between being separated from the “LOVE” of God and being separated from God, as I’m sure you know. So to try to use this verse to prove the impossibility of apostasy makes me wonder what could be your motive?
Also, I believe Luke 15, the story of the “lost sheep” has already proven that a “sheep” or child of God, who was once in the “fold” of God, doesn’t have to “ pry open the hands of God” but can simply “walk away” of his own free will. Jesus was very clear about that in this story. So who should I believe—-you, who can’t offer 1 true scripture showing a “sinner” will be saved anyway, or Jesus who has all authority?
Yes, you are right. Jesus gives those who are in His fold, the saved, the faithful, eternal life and nothing can separate them from His LOVE. But we are admonished by John to “ABIDE” in His love. Abide means to “maintain or continue in”. Totally unnecessary if we can’t be lost. If that were true, it wouldn’t matter whether we abide in His love or not—we would be saved anyway, regardless. Don’t you see, the doctrine of John Calvin does not harmonize with God’s word. Also, in John 15:9-10, where he tells us to “abide” stay in God’s love, he tells us how to do it. “You abide in His love—“IF”— you keep His commandments.” Do you believe the words of John? No. Not if you believe John Calvin. Look closely to yourself and who you are following.
Also, I believe Luke 15, the story of the “lost sheep” has already proven that a “sheep” or child of God, who was once in the “fold” of God, doesn’t have to “ pry open the hands of God” but can simply “walk away” of his own free will. Jesus was very clear about that in this story. So who should I believe—-you, who can’t offer 1 true scripture showing a “sinner” will be saved anyway, or Jesus who has all authority?
Yes, you are right. Jesus gives those who are in His fold, the saved, the faithful, eternal life and nothing can separate them from His LOVE. But we are admonished by John to “ABIDE” in His love. Abide means to “maintain or continue in”. Totally unnecessary if we can’t be lost. If that were true, it wouldn’t matter whether we abide in His love or not—we would be saved anyway, regardless. Don’t you see, the doctrine of John Calvin does not harmonize with God’s word. Also, in John 15:9-10, where he tells us to “abide” stay in God’s love, he tells us how to do it. “You abide in His love—“IF”— you keep His commandments.” Do you believe the words of John? No. Not if you believe John Calvin. Look closely to yourself and who you are following.
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John 15 :9-10 says we abide in God’s love —IF—we keep His commandments. To suggest that it is not possible to do that is to accuse God of lying. You impeach God’s word and blaspheme. In Luke 18 a rich young ruler asked Jesus, “What must I do to inherit eternal life?” What was Jesus’s answer? KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS. Even though the man lived under a different law, John says that is the same answer to us in John 15. “We abide in His love, If. We keep His commandments. It must be possible and necessary if Jesus tells us that’s how we stay in His love. Who are you to argue or contradict Him?
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